Just2807 said..
I got a tip from a buddy for waterstarts (mouth to mouth)

Practice skidding on your board in the water. Play with kites power gently with both legs straight but flexible stance (yes straight, do not try upwind, just feel for the kite power and board pressure at the same time). Progressive and soft, not yank on the bar.

Then upwind is "just" leg bending and backfoot pressure with some kite maneuvering and getting busted by a wave and 10000 more things, but, u will have no problems flying the kite and staying on board. At least i see some logic in that mid stage. So, just power from kite and pressure from board balance.

How i see it, every school teaching from 0 board time straight to edging, all in 1 step. Thats just my opinion, not a fact.

Thanks for the tip - I will give it a go

3CPO said..
I just got up and riding in both directions at speed, it is great! This is after my 7th session in the water. IT is a frustrating learning curve.

What works for me is to feel the power of the pull from the kite from the harness and not the arms. Let the kite do the work and steer the bar with only your finger tips grip. When pointing the tip of the board towards the kite, do only a little, too much you will end up with slack lines and sink back in.

Also controlling the power is very fine; the bar can travel between fully out to fully in to near the harness approx. half meter. When you get up and riding the amount of sheeting in and out required on the bar is little (around 10-15cm) which is enough to control the power while accelerating, any more than this you can easily choke the kite. And this is on a 15m kite. It is all about feeling the power and taking it easy on pulling in or pushing out of the bar. Once you gain some speed you will feel the power generate and you can park the kite and enjoy the ride.

Congratulations on getting up and going after 7th session.

Feeling the power from the kite on the harness is key, I have been strangling the bar.

Thank for the tip

Sorry moz, how do yo refine mastering kite control in 20 , even 1hr 30
I've been kiting for a long while and my kite still is my master, anyone who comes off the water in good winds telling you they've mastered the kite is talkin bollocks, IMHO your kite always has the upper hand

Just on kite skills.
When the kite is no longer there and conscious effort is no longer required then you have mastered the kite. Until then we are all raw beginners.

Jhana said..

MozKiter said..
I was fortunate enough to master my kite control skills in 20 minutes instead of the expected 1:30. But that is an exception. Some people will struggle a lot with it. Some of my fellow student just couldn't get it. But I am a very sports oriented person and generally do well in sports. I had a history in windsurfing so my board skills might have helped but I got onto the board and riding first try. Ok after 10m I stalled the kite and sank back into the water. No surprise there though. By the end of the third session I could keep my position upwind and do a carving turn. But my kite and board techniques were not near perfect. I needed to use a 14m2 kite in about 18-20knots and a 1.6m board to ride comfortably. Now two months later I can comfortably ride upwind on a 10m2 kite and a 128cm board in 15 knots. Just practice practice.

When I was doing my waterstart sessions I tended to lose power quickly after getting up. Later I realized I wasn't flying the kite up fast enough and not carving upwind again after the initial kite dive. Maybe try turning your kite up more quickly. That is what helped me a lot. I also choked the kite a lot and was stalling it since I initially pulled the bar all the way in. So like the guys said dive kite down and as soon as you feel yourself being pulled out of the water fly the kite back up again. If you are still on the board fly it down again a bit. Basically sining it. Hope it makes some sense

Good luck mate and just practice practice

Thanks Moz,

I have been sheeting in as soon as I'm up and the kite stalls and I sink.

When I start sinking I just keep the kite stalled and hope I will rise out of the water like a submarine surfacing - I hurt my back doing this because the board is under water and the force of the kite pulling against this was a huge strain.

I am not going to that again - I was trying to use will power instead of correct technique.

Certainly turning the kite up quicker just after being pulled out of the water makes sense.

I wish I hadn't used force I am still going to the physio.

It is a phycological barrier to overcome. It is just natural to keep it sheeted in but in this case it is the worst thing you can do. So sheeting in as the kite dives is OK(especially when the wind is light and you need the extra power) but as soon as you start turning the kite up you should sheet out. On the way up the kite flies faster(and generates more power) when sheeted out than it does sheeted in. This can be the extra power you need. Hope it makes sense.

Good luck with the kiting and the back

MozKiter said..

Jhana said..

MozKiter said..
I was fortunate enough to master my kite control skills in 20 minutes instead of the expected 1:30. But that is an exception. Some people will struggle a lot with it. Some of my fellow student just couldn't get it. But I am a very sports oriented person and generally do well in sports. I had a history in windsurfing so my board skills might have helped but I got onto the board and riding first try. Ok after 10m I stalled the kite and sank back into the water. No surprise there though. By the end of the third session I could keep my position upwind and do a carving turn. But my kite and board techniques were not near perfect. I needed to use a 14m2 kite in about 18-20knots and a 1.6m board to ride comfortably. Now two months later I can comfortably ride upwind on a 10m2 kite and a 128cm board in 15 knots. Just practice practice.

When I was doing my waterstart sessions I tended to lose power quickly after getting up. Later I realized I wasn't flying the kite up fast enough and not carving upwind again after the initial kite dive. Maybe try turning your kite up more quickly. That is what helped me a lot. I also choked the kite a lot and was stalling it since I initially pulled the bar all the way in. So like the guys said dive kite down and as soon as you feel yourself being pulled out of the water fly the kite back up again. If you are still on the board fly it down again a bit. Basically sining it. Hope it makes some sense

Good luck mate and just practice practice

Thanks Moz,

I have been sheeting in as soon as I'm up and the kite stalls and I sink.

When I start sinking I just keep the kite stalled and hope I will rise out of the water like a submarine surfacing - I hurt my back doing this because the board is under water and the force of the kite pulling against this was a huge strain.

I am not going to that again - I was trying to use will power instead of correct technique.

Certainly turning the kite up quicker just after being pulled out of the water makes sense.

I wish I hadn't used force I am still going to the physio.

It is a phycological barrier to overcome. It is just natural to keep it sheeted in but in this case it is the worst thing you can do. So sheeting in as the kite dives is OK(especially when the wind is light and you need the extra power) but as soon as you start turning the kite up you should sheet out. On the way up the kite flies faster(and generates more power) when sheeted out than it does sheeted in. This can be the extra power you need. Hope it makes sense.

Good luck with the kiting and the back

Thanks Moz,

Psychologically it is counter intuitive to sheet out and get more power, its like taking your foot off the accelrator and you get more power.

I have some hurdles to jump but this forum is very helpful.

Kozzie said..
kat.cr/kitesurfing-progression-4-dvds-beginner-intermediate-advanced-t5677145.html

Thanks Kozzie,

I have downloaded the video's and I have watched them many times, I even downloaded part of the new profgression series on Water starts.

They have some great shots -

The forum's advice is also excellent and covers some points the progression video's don't.

Like returning the kite to 12 just after you are up - not sheeting in too far -letting the harness pull you out of the water, don't choke the kite.

Doing things in small steps this was cauncy's advice (very good) - instead of everything at once.

Jhana said..

Thank you Windswell Port Douglas - awesome.

My wife had lessons with Windswell. Those guys are really good at teaching. Shame they've not down Brisbane way

A kite surfing kite only has 4 possible movement points or pivots (two if you think of it on an axis):

* Left
* Right
- axis one

* Forward
* Backward
- axis two

The first two (left & right) are only controlled from your bar when you pull either the left or right side of the bar respectively.

The last two (fwd & bwd) are only controlled from you cheeting IN or OUT the bar, again respectively. Pull the bar in, the kite's leading edge points more closer to you (note I said closer to you, not into the wind - that's AoA which I'll explain below). Let the bar go and the leading edge points away from you.

There is a "third" movement called the Angle of Attack (AoA), which is you adjusting the depower line to a fixed point or lock. So if you pull the depower line and lock it at some point (using the clam-cleat or some other designer's version), the AoA of the kite will be aimed towards the wind more and hence reducing power to the kite. Release the depower line to full, and the AoA is at full throttle, meaning the kite will receive more wind. The more surface area a kite receives wind, the more power it has - hence bigger kites pull harder than smaller kites.

Remember, a kite is really an aeroplane wing, but curved to meet the points of your lines on the kite. The leading edge is the front of the kite pointing to the wind first. The rear of the kite, the trailing edge receives the power of the wind last. Also, the more curve a kite "bends" at the wing-tips, the less Aspect Ratio which means less surface area for the kite to catch wind. That's why kites with lower aspect ratios (closer to 1 - see below) are stronger (foil kites in particular). Aspect Ratio is the surface area of your kite (when flat) DIVIDED by the projected area of the kite in the air from wing-tip to wing-tip. Hard to explain without a diagram.

An aeroplane wing generally has FULL aspect ratio matching closer to the surface area of the wing underneath it. So if for example an aeroplane wing has a combined 40m2 (metres squared) underneath (I say underneath as that's where the wind creates lift of the wing, the wind over the top of the wing has far less power to push the wing down), then it's aspect ratio is close to 1, 1.2, 1.3, etc (40/40). A 40m2 kite for example, since it's bent at the wing tips (and depending by how much) would have something like 2.5, 3, or even 4.0 AR (40/16, 40/13, 40/10 respectively for example). "C" kites (North Vegas, etc) have much higher aspect ratios above 5, or 6.5.

The wind's only role is to push the kite away from you, with the wind (termed going downwind). But of course it doesn't fly away from you because it's attached to two front lines that go directly to your harness hook. The other two lines (back lines) are purely for steering the kite.

Front lines = Fwd or Bwd movements (very minimal compared to steering left or right) & AoA
Rear lines = Left or Right steering.

If you just keep those points in mind you'll more quickly and thoroughly understand true kite control.

Hey Buddy,

I did a couple podcast episodes that might help. I'll attach the show notes for you to listen too.

I hope they can help :-)

EPISODE 11 - WATER STARTS, GET UP AND RIDING FAST!
https://adrenalinrush.net.au/blogs/podcast/118362693-episode-11-water-starts-get-up-and-riding-fast

EPISODE 2 - THE 80/20 PRINCIPLE ALL NEW KITEBOARDERS SHOULD KNOW.
adrenalinrush.net.au/blogs/podcast/116463557-episode-2-the-80-20-principle-all-new-kiteboarders-should-know

SoundCloud
soundcloud.com/adrenalinrushoz

iTunes
itunes.apple.com/au/podcast/the-adrenalin-rush-podcast/id1107944921?mt=2

I have had about 5 sessions so far with water starts, I do get up and travel about 5 meters but fall back, the board feels like it is slippery and just chopping over the water, if that makes sence.
Am how ever going to the cableski park as I have never surfed, skated or any kind of board sports.

Yes I did see that scoopon had deals.
But can practice going left but going to the right just feels wrong. But having a ball anyway even if I constantly face plant the water.

It was the one at Bli Bli that I went to - it was a Sunday and the learner cable is open from 10-2pm. We had it to ourselves from about 12.30 onwards - which was ace. Probably worth booking it to be on the safe side (bit more $'s). Did loads of water starts both ways. I found the most benefit was starting to feel what the weight distribution and edge felt like when goofy. Going natural was more fun but I tried to do more goofy. Next time I go I'm going to try to use my kite board.

If I find myself with the board skidding sideways its usually because I haven't pointed it in the direction of pull enough and I'm leaning back instead of standing up on the board (sort of pushing my heels). I reckon that not getting enough roll over on the start is part of the issue. TBH all sorts of sh*! happens on goofy water starts. Fortunately its getting less squirrely - but I can't rule out that it will get more squirrely again sometime soon.

ajs18s said..
I have had about 5 sessions so far with water starts, I do get up and travel about 5 meters but fall back, the board feels like it is slippery and just chopping over the water, if that makes sence.
Am how ever going to the cableski park as I have never surfed, skated or any kind of board sports.

Hi Ajs,
You mentioned you fall back in the water or you face plant when water starting.
I had the same problem - I took a lesson with a great teacher and he solved my problem with this technique in one session.
Here is what he made me do.
Without the board

1. Go into the water with just the kite

2. Dive the kite into the power zone (over 12 oclock) and at the same time push the bar away from you. (This will take the forward power out of the kite)

3. Then just after you have pushed the bar away pull the bar in - not sharply. (you will feel the forward power of the kite and it will drag you forwards through the water on your chest).

There are two distinct movement happening here.

The first movement of diving the kite and pushing the bar away gives lift, the second movement of pulling the bar in will give you forward movement.

When you dive the kite into the power zone and push the bar away at the same time this will give you lift because the kite is going through 12 o'clock and this is the lifting part of the wind window and you need lift in the water start to get you out of the water but not pull you over the board.

When you water start with a board you have to have lift to get you out of the water but you don't want forward movement immediately because forward movement will pull you over the board onto your face.

So when you are ready for the water start dive the kite through 12 and push the bar away.

This will lift you out of the water - then as the lift gets you standing up on the board pull the bar in (not sharply)and you will then get the forward movement and you will feel the control because the more you pull the bar in the more forward power you will have.

Practice without the board to get the feel for the two distinct movements of the bar.

Good luck

ajs18s said..
Cheers for that Jhana, That does make seance, and as I have another kitesurfer giving me a hand over the last few visits to my local, both similar tips, but what I have been trying is to dive the kite in the opposite direction of travel first to get that lift up and out of the water then dive back the other way.
On another note I spent Saturday at the cable park in BliBli, water starts out the back on the back and forward cable I nailed straight up, even on the big cable had no problem with the starts, but yes I do understand that the power is instantly there. But do you think I could go around the first corner.
And what is this "EDGE" you all talk about? Is it when you dig the side or edge of the board into the water? I felt that I could lean onto my heals whilst traveling along the cable, but was unsure how far I could lean or put pressure onto my heals. I could not find this edge you all talk about. The board still felt slippery.
I hate you all. You all make this look way to easy.....

Hey AJ, think of your water start as less "diving the kite one way and then back the other way" and more "start your initial dive from the opposite side you're intending to go"
What I mean is: if you want to go left, move your kite over to 1 o'clock and when it is stationary in that position and you're ready, dive your kite all the way through window down to 10 o'clock then back up a bit towards 11. The initial pull from 1 to 11 will give you lift up onto your board, (note that at this stage you should have your board pointing down wind). The next part of your dive from 11 down to 10 and back up again) will give you the forward momentum you need to get your board planing on the water at which stage you can start turning your hips more to the left and start pointing your board more upwind.
The elusive "edge" we refer to is exactly as it sounds: pressure on your heels (mostly on the back foot heel) and using the edge of your board against the kite to move you upwind. Will see if I can find a picture....

Disclaimer: found this pic online but it was the best I could find that demonstrates "edging"