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F one bandit x backstalling

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Created by littlewing A week ago, 1 Dec 2017
littlewing
QLD, 64 posts
1 Dec 2017 10:58AM
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Hey all, mate of mine just picked up a f one bandit x second hand after coming off an older C4. Turning speed of kite and boost feels good but he is having major issues with the kite backstalling particularly through transitions. My initial thoughts are stretched centre lines but these bars seem to have a different safety with high v. Anyone know if line lengths are meant to be equal on bandit x? or have issues with backstalling on this kite? thanks

Puetz
NT, 2036 posts
1 Dec 2017 12:55PM
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... if your mate uses the depower, does it eventually come good, as in does it stop backstalling? If so then it will be simply adding some length to the back lines. Mate of mine had same thing on his Bandit so added roughly 2.5cm which helped but what made a bigger difference was pumping the kite to appropriate pressure which seems to be 10psi for his 12m.

Mate loves his kite again.

Cheers,

Robbie

jamesperth
WA, 497 posts
1 Dec 2017 1:32PM
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back stalling is a giveaway that the bar is out of tune (back lines shorter than the front lines). Definitely check the lengths of the flying lines - 20-30 cm of shrinkage (!!!) is not uncommon and will cause backstalling. Most modern kites rely on 4 equal lines these days but check your model to be certain.

CBulota even sells a line tuner to help tune your bar kitebud.com.au/product/kitebud-kitesurfing-line-tuner/

lots of good info here (www.seabreeze.com.au/forums/Kitesurfing/General/Lines-dont-stretch-they-shrink?page=1)

fanfare
55 posts
1 Dec 2017 4:34PM
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line tuner.... you mean a ****ing screwdriver
why do people keep manufacturing **** and wasting resources and killing the planet?!!?

you hook the lines onto the bloody end of a screwdriver.
or a pen?!?! LINE TUNER!!! BAH!!!
my lord

Fly on da wall
VIC, 500 posts
1 Dec 2017 9:10PM
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I saw a guy on a new Bandit with 4 inches stretched on one of his steering line's and it's not even 12 months old so I helped him and retuned and corrected them so his kite would actually fly like a newish kite should and not behave like a death trap. The line's set are not good quality imho. And don't bully me regarding my experiences. It's a forum which is here for people's experiences and opinions. Thanks

littlewing
QLD, 64 posts
1 Dec 2017 8:26PM
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Thanks all, it was just hard to find info on if the line lengths are equal length even the manual isn't real clear. Im assuming the fronts have stretched so will lengthen the backs with mate next time we are out and will check out if the line lengths are similar. Disappointing sometimes, cant always afford new gear so get as new as possible second hand and when backstalling etc you start to wonder about the kite. I had the same issue with core gts back in the day. Fav bar and lines for me so far has been slingshot, lines seem thicker and more sturdy to roll out and untangle maybe with enough experience we will end up sticking to particular brands.

straddiepaul
QLD, 123 posts
2 Dec 2017 12:37AM
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get to know the line length adjustments your kite/bar/lines have already built in and set them to match conditions, surprisingly few riders use or even know about them increases the usable wind range better sess and better value! backstalling on a 2017 kite = either old/wrong bar/lines, bad technique or simply back lines set too tight easily adjusted as said above, if unsure ask an experienced local to check...
wish i could blame all my stuff ups on my gear like others attempt to above

littlewing
QLD, 64 posts
2 Dec 2017 7:59PM
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Thanks all, had some wind this arvo and checked mates lines, centers were fairly stretched even extending the back lines to the last not (longest back lines can go) the centers were still a little off so puled in the depower a few cms to further compensate. Kite went much better no backstalling at all this time. Mate says kite feels a bit gutless in transitions but im guessing its because of the shape compared to his old c4 probably just something to get used to and turn the kite harder through the window.

Is there anyway to further lengthen the back lines now or to shorten the middle lines? Thanks for the tips

windywander
WA, 56 posts
2 Dec 2017 6:40PM
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I dont know if you have knots or loops on your rear lines, but I have had good luck with making small pigtails out of 3mm dyeema and attching them to the kite end of the rear lines. If you have pigtails already just make longer ones, I make them long enough so that I can put the adjustment under the float back to the middle knot, leaving me room for future adjustment.


Dont know the design of your bar but could also extend or make a new longer line with more knots at the bar end of things, as long as you use 3mm dyeema or whatever size is aleady in use a bit of creativity should sort it out.

Good luck and play safe, if in doubt get a local kite repair person to sort it out.

Lambie
VIC, 641 posts
3 Dec 2017 2:40PM
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It sounds like is a common fault with the Bandit X ??? I too bought a 2nd hand 14m and it also backstalled so I check the tune of the bar and the front lines were way longer on what was virtually near new kite ?? I suspect the previous owner sold it cuz it flew like a dog - Ive shortened the front line and its now an awesome kite - I just love it !!
I wonder if Jack from F-One would care to comment ??

jamesperth
WA, 497 posts
4 Dec 2017 2:13PM
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Select to expand quote
Lambie said..
It sounds like is a common fault .........i check the tune of the bar and the front lines were way longer on what was virtually near new kite ?? I suspect the previous owner sold it cuz it flew like a dog - Ive shortened the front line and its now an awesome kite - I just love it !!




I don't think lines shrinking/ stretching qualifies as a fault - for a start it affects all brands. Isn't this just part of the normal wear & tear that our kites experience ?

Im interested to understand who doesnt check their bar tune regularly ? I thought this was something everyone did from time to time to keep their kites flying properly ? Isn't this the same as putting air in your tyres ?

Lambie
VIC, 641 posts
4 Dec 2017 10:12PM
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Select to expand quote
jamesperth said..

Lambie said..
It sounds like is a common fault .........i check the tune of the bar and the front lines were way longer on what was virtually near new kite ?? I suspect the previous owner sold it cuz it flew like a dog - Ive shortened the front line and its now an awesome kite - I just love it !!





I don't think lines shrinking/ stretching qualifies as a fault - for a start it affects all brands. Isn't this just part of the normal wear & tear that our kites experience ?

Im interested to understand who doesnt check their bar tune regularly ? I thought this was something everyone did from time to time to keep their kites flying properly ? Isn't this the same as putting air in your tyres ?


Yes I agree James - we should check our gear regularly which I do but for a nearly new kites bar to be so far out of tune ?? Im an avid F-One supporter and havent been killed by one unlike some other seabreeze member thats been killed a million times by his kite - apparently ??
Its definitely not anything to do with stretch or shrink - if it is Id have to agree then that the line quality is crap (which it isnt ) - its got to be a quality control issue given how new the Bandit 10 was when this front line length issue has appeared . just my 2cw !!

littlewing
QLD, 64 posts
5 Dec 2017 9:51AM
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Select to expand quote
jamesperth said..

Lambie said..
It sounds like is a common fault .........i check the tune of the bar and the front lines were way longer on what was virtually near new kite ?? I suspect the previous owner sold it cuz it flew like a dog - Ive shortened the front line and its now an awesome kite - I just love it !!





I don't think lines shrinking/ stretching qualifies as a fault - for a start it affects all brands. Isn't this just part of the normal wear & tear that our kites experience ?

Im interested to understand who doesnt check their bar tune regularly ? I thought this was something everyone did from time to time to keep their kites flying properly ? Isn't this the same as putting air in your tyres ?

Had a super old core gts that was pretty beat up and used to backstall more then it would fly, big difference in centre line length was one of the issues.

Moved on to second hand slingshot - never checked the line lengths ever and no issues with backstalling or flying characteristics the whole time i had the kite so never bothered cheching for front line stretch, lines on slingshot are best by far of any kite i have had seem thicker, and easier to setup.

Now im on a Park now had since new for 2-3 years now 2015 i think, no issues with backstall so havent checked for front line stretch.

So i dont check my bar tune regularly, only pull the safety now and then to make sure it still works. If i had backstalling issues i would check the lengths but from my experience there seems to be some lines that perform better. Mate wasnt expecting to be doing much tuning to a 2017 f one kite, but thanks for the tips it is flying much better now and is an equal line length bar. The front lines have stretched past the underbar adjusters and will need to get some pigtails as per advice on this forum.

Swavek
WA, 207 posts
Wednesday , 6 Dec 2017 6:27AM
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Bought a new set of genuine ozone lines - centre lines were about 10cm too short with back lines set to minimum length when I put them on (tied to the closest knot to the bar). Had to add pigtails to the centre lines to make all lines equal. Within few sessions I had to make the back lines longer and longer and could remove the pigtails after about 6 sessions. Then the lines stabilised - did not have to touch them for a year.

Bought a second hand Wainman bar - check the lines, all were equal, used them heavily for 3 years and only lately I had to make a small adjustment.

looks like the new lines may change in length a lot but once they used a few times they don't change much.

cbulota
WA, 1101 posts
Wednesday , 6 Dec 2017 9:36AM
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Hi littlewing

All modern kite bars have equal line lengths by default from the factory. The only exception that I know of was on an old F-One kite called the Volt or Revolt? ( around 2010?) who had back lines longer than the front lines by default.

Common sense says that your lines will stretch over time but this assumption is wrong. Lines are pre-stretched to the max in the factory, if you grab a brand new bar or a brand new set of lines and try to stretch them you simply won't be able to.

I recently held a kite maintenance/repair clinic and grabbed a brand new bar from the shop to compare the length difference with a bar that had only 2 months of use in my school.


The top bar with the sorter lines is the used one and the bottom bar with the longer lines is the brand new one.

Lines can also stretch but note that that they will always shrink first. A common example of stretched line is if you are trying to relaunch your kite by pulling very hard on one of your back lines, this will stretch that back line that has previously shrunk over time

Front lines will shrink less as they are always under load. Therefore, front lines will eventually become longer than your back lines and your kite will backstall

This process happens very slowly so most people won't notice. It's a good idea to tune your lines every 20-30 sessions or so.

Kite manufacturers know your line length will change over time hence why they provide adjustments to lengthen the back lines and/or shorten the front lines.

Line shrinking is more of an issue in hot/sunny weather (Australia) as I noticed lines shrink less in colder climates.

If you grab any bar from any manufacturer when it's brand new and measure it's precise length, you will notice the lines have shrunk after only 30 days or so of use.

As James said, over time, this can reach well over 20cm of difference

Christian

undertow
QLD, 54 posts
Wednesday , 6 Dec 2017 3:06PM
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Just basic tuning. It amazes me how many people kites aren't tuned properly. Every new kite should be flown and adjusted accordingly. Extend back lines. Add pigtail if needed. I just won state freestyle titles on bandit x no probs with the kite.



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"F one bandit x backstalling" started by littlewing