Check this vid for how to sine (like a sine wave) to work the most out of a kite...
Felix Pivec on a 7.5m C kite in 14 knots
kiteforum.com/viewforum.php?f=200/component/option,com_videos/task,show/id,1478/Itemid,30/

G'day JIP

First, the trimmer is to adjust the bar position, so when it is windier, you can pull some on and get the bar to be closer to you. It and all kites trim straps are actually there for that purpose, they do not make the kite more powerful, however the effect can make the kite slower or faster, so a faster kite will give more power if it is flown well.

Second, you are sinking, because you are flying the kite across the window, not down into the power zone from (1-2 o'clock) and up through the power zone (to 10-11 o'clock), this is a common error. You must deliberately fly the kite well into and out of the centre of the power zone, to maintain power. If the kite goes to the edge - then you let it fly to the edge - so that means pilot error = more practice will make you better at this.

Do what Tobes said too, keep board speed as high as possible and don't point/edge too high.

Hope that helps

Cya and

Goodwinds

Steve

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Originally posted by JiP

quote:

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Originally posted by tobes

JiP, sounds like you're treating the kite right, you want it to speed up in light winds. Are you sinking when you change directions? Keeping your speed up is the trick, and following the kite through the turn. Hard to explain here, I'm sure it'll click soon. In light winds it also helps to build board speed at the start of a tack, and concentrate on edging upwind after you're moving.

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im sinking because the kite seems to get to the side of the window to quickley, i dont seem to be able to keep her in the power zone. I put the kite too 1 ....2 o'clock send her across to 9...10 0clock with bar pulled in then i trey my first powerstoke to keep going but at this poit i just seem to sink

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quote:

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Originally posted by JiP

Ok thanks Steve as i discribed in the previous post i am sending the kite from 1/2 down into the power then too 10/11.....However ! after reading your post steve i think im letting the kite go through the power ok so i get up no problem .........but then im not turning the kite up to 10 /11 in power ...im doing it too late ...and hence the kite is at the edge of the window and i sink
Cool thanks Steve reckon i can give it a better shot next time ![}:)]

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Great JIP
Sounds like you understand me know, once you finish the down stroke yeah turn hard and fly the kite back up to 11/12 o'clock, by that time you will have moved forward (without sinking) and the kite will be in the correct position to sine again for max power.

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Originally posted by JiP
So the trimmer strap is just to ring the bar closer to the body ?

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Yes, it does NOT change the power of the kite, all it does is change the length of the front lines. The misunderstanding that pulling in lots of trim to "depower" the kite has caused many accidents for sure, because people then cannot steer the kite properly, and the kite can become unstable.

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Originally posted by JiP
by pulling the front lines in the back lines become tighter?

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NO, shortening the fronts makes the rears looser. Its simple, remember that whatever you do to one set of lines, - does the opposite to the other set, got it?

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Originally posted by JiP
...so the kite turns faster but flys slower (towards the edge of the window ) back lines loose the kite flies fast but is slow to turn
or does not turn.
Am i correct ?

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The rear lines are primarily for steering, they need to be trimmed close enough to you so that they can be made to be tight enough to steer the kite, thats all. Advanced rider technique will also have the kite tuned to have some ability to over sheet on command to slow the kite if needed.

For unhooking, the front lines need to be trimmed (prior to unhooking) so that when the rider unhooks, and the front lines lengthen (thereby shortening the rears) that the kite does not oversheet and stall or lose speed and power.

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Originally posted by JiP
Is there any usefull information on how these aerodynamics work with kites (maybe an idiots guide or something to kite areodynamics) i would like to read up on it.
Thanks again

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Not that I know of? Anyone?
Anyway just fly your kite more and watch it, when you trim it with the bar or the trim stap/cleat.

Most C kites change speed/power very little via the bar or trim strap adjustment of the relative length of the front and rear lines, while Bow kites do and have a large wind range as a consequence and hybrids are somewhere in between.

Cya and

Goodwinds

Steve

I took a new 11 m sport out today in under 10 knot northerly and was suprised at how much low down this kite has. I had been downwinding a little on a 16 sb2, and thought that the 11m sport felt close to the 16 sb2 in term of the pull generated- didn't understand how this could be----maybe b/c the sb2 16 is slow, and the 11 sport is fast, it is just a difference in apparent wind . when the wind is on the sb2 pulls like a large truck.

overall felt great- quick-ish turns, with power on just after the turn is initiated- turns very similarly to the sb2 , i thought.

flies like my rd hypertype but more stable and less canopy flutter- seemed to be pretty rock solid frame/canopy

i haven't tried water relaunching. hopefully will be a bit easier than the sb2 (only a problem in light winds).

the bar is long at 60 cms, i guess that is in place of pulleys, and quality adjusters, with flagging out rings on the centre lines, and the fifth.

bar pressure is light, and it will reverse launch.

a very very nice kite to fly-can't wait for some real wind.

Trimming the kite affects the power of the kite due to a change in the angle of attack.

Cheers Kite devil & wave slave,
Kite language is very subtle dont you think ?
De-power Power ....bad terms really for a beginner .
Drag ....De-drag maybe ?
I have now started to think of it like a valve if that makes sense ?? valve closed = kite powered trailing edge pulled in and grabbing/catching air.....valve open= wind passes by the kite not catching air or grabbing wing.
Am i talking poo? i havent had chance to test my knowledge yet !
Kite devil what percentage de-power does the 13m sport have in your opinion ?

hi kitedevil,
question. I have the sport 13 and love it. I am the same weight as you. What is the low-end of the 9 for you with your LF element?
Thanks...

Hi JIP

Been a bit busy, sorry for the delay in replying.
The front lines doe not work independently of the rears on any kite. They work together, so if you shorten the fronts, the rears get longer by an equal amount.

If you shorten the fronts, the rears get longer, thats all that actually happens, look up at your kite when you do it.

The front edge of the kite only tilts forward because there is less pressure on the rears, so you are not pulling the front of the kite down.

So you need to pull the bar closer to you to get tension on the rear lines, to adjust the angle of attack of the kite to an angle that will deliver more speed and therefore power from the kite. Power from a kite is proportional to the speed of the kite through the air, so power comes from FLYING the kite, not by adjusting the relative lengths of the rear and front lines with a trim strap or cleat.

Shortening the front lines with the trim strap/cleat, has EXACTLY the same rear line lengthening effect as pushing the bar out.

Its the increase or decrease of tension in the rear lines that changes the angle of attack of the kite, and therfore the speed of the kite and therfore the power delivered by the kite.

Many many people in kiting, even very experienced riders do not understand this.

The trim system adjusts the position of the bar, to where you can comfortably ride.

If you need to trim/shorten the front lines a lot to be able to ride, and not be in pooman stance then you will have lost some ability to steer the kite (due to slack rear lines) and really should be on a smaller kite. BUT if you do ride like this and you can still edge, you will boost to the moon!

The reason that a rider will need to trim in once riding at speed, is because of the effect of apparent wind, creating more wind at the kite and therefore more power from the kite, and therefore the rider ends up in pooman stance, but if they shorten the front lines than they can ride in a comfortable stance again, but the power of the kite has not changed.

Only slowing the kite down decreases the power, but some riders think that the increase pull that can occur with some kites when this is done, = more power, but its just drag - downwind.

Hope that helps

Cya and

Goodwinds

Steve

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Originally posted by JiP

Steve just one thing im still not sure of here.
You say that pulling in the CLam cleat only shortens the front lines and brings the bar closer to the riders body.
But DOES NOT depower the kite.
surely by pulling the front/leading edge (shortening the front lines)down into the wind the kite is cutting through the wind more ? and by showing less kite to the wind .....therefore has alot less power?
I understand that pulling too much in in light winds your gonna lose steering, which could be bad.
Sorry if im being really dumb here.

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Thanks for the info kite devil, and for the quick reply.
Just so tempting this 9. My "old" C-kite LF SpectrumII 10m2 doesn't combine as well as I thought with my 13 instinct. Too much overlap, "too good" high end for the instinct 13. And everybody here (Holland) is mad about this kite in 9 and 11. I was just worried I wouldn't make much use of a 9. But you comfirm that the 9 has an especially good low end; if I can still use it down to 18 knots with your/our weight and a medium sized twin-tip... that's nice.

Tempting... When will I stop needing all this stuff?!? Help I want more toys...

Thanks again.

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Originally posted by KiteDevil

Well it's usually gusty down here so it's hard to tell the low-end of the 9m. If you work the hell out of it you can stay upwind, I would think at around 14-16knots. The airport the other day said it got down to 12-16knots and I walked back up the beach once, but that was more to do with getting waves all the way to the river mouth.
Ideally I would fly the 9m in 20kn up to 35kn easy and fully lit.

Oh and the self launch/land is unreal.

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Oooh dear this is not good i had two seasons over the weekend where i bog sat, overbalanced, over de-powered, pointed my board up wind too much, dug rails kooked out and generally had an AMAZING **** BRILLIANT TIME !!!!!!!!!!!
I am sooooooooo Hooked GIVE ME MORE !! (damn im at work )
2 more days to the weekend ........what am i gonna do ! what if there is no wind >???
Im thinking about leaving work ...living under my kite with bread and water to eat ....and kite everyday WoooHoooo!
Spider Pig Spider Pig does whatever a spider Pig Does....

I ahve never heard such complicated over analysis BS of kiting.
I would like to clear up the most obvious peiece of crap.... Bows and hybrids do not like to be signed like C kites.you need to let them fly. Turn your board down wind and build up speed then park the kite.
These kites rely on speed to generate power. Try signing a Rebel for example like the video and you will back stall. ....let the bar out!!!
2. JIP for everyones sake, beg borrow or buy a bigger board. This will speed up your learning like you won't believe. When learnng you tend to dive hard just to stand up, then you lose power as you stand on the board because the lines go a little slack then you sink. Get a big board and you don't need to generate the power just to get up then you can use the power you genrate to concerntrate on letting the kite fly and going down wind and THEN edging your board.
3. I say this coz I did the same **** you are talking about when learning. Don't overcomplicate things The kite settings are not that critical. I started stuffing with line lengths and S***T when all I had to do was let the bar out and let the kite fly. (and get a biiger board....nice light wind board now)
In the turns learn to slide turn look at the online kite surf magizine instruction pages they are brillent. That way you can keep the power on all the way through a turn. As you get more experience you will find you are more efficent with your kite and then you can worry about your settings. I have had to drop down a kite size since learning because I now can effectively use the power generated.
Good luck dude but stop messing with your brain.