price of lessons vs security

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ericmb
ericmb
SA
77 posts
SA, 77 posts
16 Apr 2008 9:40pm
so.. how to put it in a delicate way.. there is none :-)

twice over the 10 times or so I ve been to the beach I ve bumped
into guys that went out "kitesurfing" without having had ANY lessons.
the last one today. I talked him into lessons and he said: not at 180aud per lesson.
I have to agree with him. its way too expensive.

I know its about demand and supply and all that. but are prices so outrageously high that people cant afford them and put themselves and others at risk? Are we turning kitesurfing into a posh expensive sport like Golf used to be for many years?

I have taken lesson in 3-4 countries overseas and I wouldnt fork out 180 for an hour here.
no way jose.

discuss.
KFKiter
KFKiter
SA
213 posts
SA, 213 posts
16 Apr 2008 11:45pm
$180 is cheaper than the repair to you or your kite if you send yourself bouncing down the beach because you dont know how to fly your kite.
I never had lessons when i started 4 years ago, i stress to anybody that i know who wants to start, get some lessons and as soon as the kite is in the air get in the water and dont play on the beach unless you like pain.
Dudhit
Dudhit
SA
65 posts
SA, 65 posts
16 Apr 2008 11:55pm
I'm happy with the lessons i paid for, and also got tips and confidence which you can't get from a DVD.

my first 2 lessons gave me the bug even though they weren't enough to get me to the next level. but the safety side of things were firmly planted.
i've had lessons in QLD and SA, and safety and theory played a crucial part. even the dvd's talk safety.

at the time, it didn't dent my income, i wanted to get into this sport and justified my expenses accordingly.
so how cheap are people that can afford to buy a kite and not have a few extra dollars for some form of training.
i think the risk is in the individual. then again, i've been smothered by safety through my working life, in a world full of cowboys.

since i started meeting the Adelaide locals, they are generally a friendly bunch that look out for you, and give tips, comes down to swallowing your pride listening.
jordy
jordy
SA
451 posts
SA, 451 posts
17 Apr 2008 12:22am
Ohhh, Here we go, another can of worms.

Regardless, I'm going to throw in my 2 cents.

If you are going to walk onto any beach with a kite then you are completly iresponsible. You are disregarding any duty of care that you hold to fellow kiters and more importantly fellow beach users. It is in your hands to take care of the people around you who are alos using the beach..

By going out with a quality instructor, and I'm not talking about some guy who has been in the sport for 6 months, learnt to go upwind, then done an IKO course. I'm talking about someone who has been around a good while, has respect on the beach from other kiters, can walk the walk and talk the talk and put into practice what he teaches. Not some guy who has a certificate and a little knowledge. Guys on the beach should know this person and should be able to recommend him as well. He should hold credibility with other kiters as not only a great rider, but as a great instructor. Any kook can ride, not any kook can instruct.

People who don't go and get lessons should not be on our beaches. We don't want them there either. They risk losing our beaches by taking some poor bugger out.

By getting lessons, you get exposed to other riders who can help you out as you go along. The instructor will be happy to help you if you get in trouble down the beach. I can't remember the last time some kook who thought he knew it all got help. The only thing they got was a great big piss off.

Get lessons, get knowledge and everyone will get along. Get a decent instructor, with a top reputation, not some dick who thinks they know it all.

There are alot of shonky operators out there, any of the boys in Adelaide can recommend a good instructor. Do the right thing, if not for yourself then for everyone else on the beach.
ericmb
ericmb
SA
77 posts
SA, 77 posts
17 Apr 2008 12:55pm
its def. a can of worms.

One of the first things I said was that he put the community in a very difficult situation by showing up like this. I dont like telling people what to do but at the same time I cant just let
him injure himself/others standing by watching and doing nothing. it could harm us and give the council what they need.

so yeah, as soon as he dropped the kite he couldnt get it up and was dragged offshore a bit.
I had to swim a few meters and get him in. I reckon he s understood now.

I understand and agree 180aud is cheaper than injury and new gear but if you cant afford it, you cant afford it. end of story.

its ridiculous really to have to deal with these things.
jordy
jordy
SA
451 posts
SA, 451 posts
17 Apr 2008 1:25pm
$180 per lesson in my opnion is cheap for what you get. If you go to a guy who has many years of experiance, he can tell you and sahow you everything there is to know about kiting. What is that sort of experiance worth? What price can you pay for the privilage of having an instructor look out for you if he knows you are down the beach despite him being with other students? And what price can you put on meeting all the other great guys who participate in this sport?

Not many people choose to take up this sport and even fewer choose to become a teacher of it. The season is limited for these guys to make money so they have to make it while they can. They have limited students to teach to and even fewer students go on after their first lesson because it is too hard, too expensive etc.

The price also helps weed out any knobs who decide to take it up and put others at risk. The people who do continue on with the sport are at least genuine in their commitment to represent the sport in all it's great fashion and can pass on their lessons and experiance onto newbies as well. The amount I have learnt from guys who have been kiting a lot longer than me is priceless. Without an instructor I wouldn't have met those guys.

Free lessons are a croc of ** and should be discouraged. They bring people who are half hearted into the sport and instead of having 3 dedicated learners on the beach you end up having 3 decicated learners and 10 idiots who think after having one 1 hour lesson they know it all. After smashing themselves and possibly someone else, they give it away or even worse come back and try to smash everyone again for another day of disaster.

You get what you pay for and if you're not paying much then you are probably getting even less. Not only are you getting less, but you're giving less to the rest of the guys who try to safely promote kitine surfing.

Do the right thing.
murf
murf
SA
478 posts
SA, 478 posts
17 Apr 2008 1:33pm
Hey Eric

$180 does sound expensive but also remember a school has to outlay are around 15-20K to be setup properly so if you factor in the number of windy days how many hours of wind you can teach in those days and how long a season is $180 bucks is not that bad.

Back when I started kiting there was no schools and it took me around 3-4 months to learn to go upwind. To blow 360 dollars on a couple of lessons to learn how to kite does not seem that bad.

If you think it is still expensive. Try setting up a school it is not as fun as it sounds.

Travis
airush geoff
airush geoff
974 posts
974 posts
17 Apr 2008 12:46pm
Lessons are a must !!!!!

Some sort of public liability insurance is a must.

If you can't afford lessons then you can't afford the gear !!!!

Even second hand,

Harness $200

Board $500

Kite $700,

If you can afford all the gear then an extra 20% ontop of the total cost above should not be an issue.

You need licences for so many other recreational pursuits- motorbikes are expensive but people then have to shell out for a licence and insurance, how is this any different ????

Topic finished.

jordy
jordy
SA
451 posts
SA, 451 posts
17 Apr 2008 6:02pm
Really? Ohhhh Geoff, I was just getting started!!
murf
murf
SA
478 posts
SA, 478 posts
17 Apr 2008 7:21pm
airush geoff said...

Lessons are a must !!!!!

Some sort of public liability insurance is a must.

If you can't afford lessons then you can't afford the gear !!!!

Even second hand,

Harness $200

Board $500

Kite $700,

If you can afford all the gear then an extra 20% ontop of the total cost above should not be an issue.

You need licences for so many other recreational pursuits- motorbikes are expensive but people then have to shell out for a licence and insurance, how is this any different ????

Topic finished.




Topic Finished!!! Thats a bit "Snappy" AG!!
airush geoff
airush geoff
974 posts
974 posts
17 Apr 2008 7:31pm
Sorry - I just don't think whether lessons are too expensive is a discussion, if lessons are too expensive go take up a different sport.

Ps very nice word play Trav, borders on witty and intelligent which are two things not normally associated with you.
murf
murf
SA
478 posts
SA, 478 posts
17 Apr 2008 9:09pm
Dont be like that I might go back into my shell !!!!!
Rooboy
Rooboy
SA
298 posts
SA, 298 posts
18 Apr 2008 10:58am
Ah so it all falls into place now. Trav so ur the Snapping turtle are u?
ericmb
ericmb
SA
77 posts
SA, 77 posts
18 Apr 2008 11:12am
Personally I have got LOADS of lessons under my belt and I know for sure
they are NEEDED, so thats not the point here.

I wont change my mind in that I think its way too expensive though.
Coming from overseas the prices here are actually the same, if not more, as
overseas whereas cost of living here is dramatically less. Dont argue with me
on that one, I ve lived in 7 countries in Europe :-)

As for expenses for starting a shop; 20-30K is a reasonable amount for starting a business I think. Its not like you have to have an office, expensive rental estate for a good location in the city, you dont really need staff if you do it on your own. You can do a group of 3-4 at the same time when its windy so that sort of takes care of the "no wind" days. etc.

My driving instructor is considering a career move now I told him about the prices, he s charging 55aud per hour. Bless him!

I will sign up to AKSA today and make sure I mention this to the guy I ve mentioned next time I meet him.

AG; Im done now :-)

Eric
sbray
sbray
SA
350 posts
SA, 350 posts
18 Apr 2008 12:35pm
ericmb said...

My driving instructor is considering a career move now I told him about the prices,



Tell your driving instructor to consider not taking any drivers for lessons unless the wind is blowing 10 to 20 Knots, cross shore........!

After running this exercise for a while do you still consider that your driving instructor would not raise his prices, especially if his competitors were running under the same guidelines?

The only comparism between Driving instruction & Kite instruction is the fact, that AG & all others pointed out,.....it is that you have an obligation to do it.

Comparing somewhere with less wind , more kiters, better weather stability, cost of living, elephant training cost in India, learning to drive a tractor etc et all, is like comparing apples to sprockets.

I found that the only lesson I have been able to attend / organise in Adelaide was excellently ran by Red Baron ( I am around an hour away from the nearest beach).

My lesson was with 2 other beginners, and I paid the same as I would have for a normal 2hr lesson.

The big difference was that Guy began the lesson at 12 noon & we did not leave the beach until around 4:30pm.......an excellent day.

If you have a difficulty with prices, ring around the qualified & recommended local instructors then arrange perhaps an extended session (2 levels) for a set price or maybe as it happened to me & have a multiple person lesson and agree on a "group rate".

I am sure all of the qualified instructors would like your business just as you want to learn. Especially with the current wind (lack of) patterns.

You could always go Overseas & get cheaper prices but I would like to see a direct cost comparism considering dollar rates, airfare, language difficuly, accomodation, car hire and not including using said travel for holidays as that would not be a level comparism, would it?

regards
Scott the grinning fossil
pdub
pdub
SA
6 posts
SA, 6 posts
18 Apr 2008 4:15pm
I agree with everyone, if you are a kook get a lesson and HTFU!!!!!
Cal
Cal
QLD
1003 posts
Cal Cal
QLD, 1003 posts
18 Apr 2008 6:09pm
jordy said...



The price also helps weed out any knobs who decide to take it up and put others at risk. The people who do continue on with the sport are at least genuine in their commitment to represent the sport in all it's great fashion and can pass on their lessons and experiance onto newbies as well.


Hmm, think I will weigh in on this discussion.

Firstly, I dont think price has anything to do with weeding out the knobs. I know plenty of rich knobs who try something without being fully committed. These guys are often the dangerous ones who dont give a toss.....

Anyway, that out of the way;

Yes, the prices of Kite lessons are very expensive. Ok, lets consider the details, equipment, insurance and experience should all be covered by the price. There is surely an expense in being an instructor then.

BUT, no shop front, gear sponsorship and association insurance reducing costs.

I know plenty of people with more than 4 years university training, carrying full personal and public liability insurance, office, infrastructure expenses etc. I hardly know any who pull in $180 per hour.

Factor in the weather... That is what a second job / business fron covers.

If lessons were cheaper, more people would get them, and to a higher level. This would increase the client base of the instructors, providing greater income...

Also, with more people in the sport, gear would be cheaper, the second hand market would be larger and we would all win.

These are of course all my own opinion and I value yours. At least when I feel I have paid too much for a lesson, I can read the other posts and get a different perspective. Still, I think they should be cheaper!!

Hmm, that was a long post, sorry about that!
ElementsKite
ElementsKite
SA
6 posts
SA, 6 posts
19 Apr 2008 12:10pm
Hey Cal

When you say "$180 per hour", our lessons are $180 for 2 hours which normally blow out to 3 depending on skill level and wind conditions. Most personal trainers charge that much.

Cheers

Travis
Nuttzzzz
Nuttzzzz
SA
92 posts
SA, 92 posts
19 Apr 2008 12:49pm
Hi Eric,

You raise some good points here. Firstly, hats off to you for chatting to this newbie and helping them avoid getting hurt. I recommend the same action, diplomatically of course, to all of us in the kiting community. This is the first step we can take to help reduce the risk of beach closures, I believe.

Seems your concern is primarily with cost of lessons. I run a school here in Adelaide and Travis is entirely correct re setup costs. We also have public liability insurance, IKO membership and council permits to pay plus kites and associated gear which aren't cheap to buy and thereafter maintain even if we're able to get a school price. I also use the Headzone communication system which cost $5k to set up and I've just bought an inflatable for the school which cost $7k.

Group lessons help recoup some of the outlay as you mention but I really don't have to try to run at a loss for my accountant. Costs are ongoing, income often isn't as in the case of this season, which for us teaching wise, finished very early. Then of course there's the fickle aspect of the wind even during a normal season which reduces the window of opportunity for teaching. I think you'll find nearly every instructor has an alternative method of income as kite instructing isn't sustainable on it's own.

I believe a rookie kiteboarder can afford at least 1 lesson and that's enough to keep them and everyone around them safe. Thereafter knowledge can come via the net, intstructional DVD's, chatting to others etc.

Cheerz Guy
Robe
Robe
SA
150 posts
SA, 150 posts
27 Apr 2008 9:52am
maybe people need to start looking outside the circle for lessons, by that I mean outside the cities...
I know of several smaller operators that charge around the $100 per 2 hour lesson, IKO instructors, all the latest gear and less crowded beaches...
just food for thought!
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