Forums > Land Yacht Sailing Construction

The cookie cutter yacht

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Created by KAONAONA 30 days ago, 22 Jun 2017
KAONAONA
209 posts
22 Jun 2017 12:02PM
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Does everybody want the same car, the same house, the same trousers?

The same landyacht?

I have learned a lot in the last two years of studying (and i do mean study, like there was some sort of validation at the end).

Over the years I've noticed that except for "factory made" yachts there are very few that are exactly the same as the next.
Everyone has an instinct and that instinct leads to change and true innovation. It removes the "cookie cutter" syndrome.

The Lake Lefroy Mini, just as an example, was born of solid design with solid beginnings.
It's great because Joe blow can build their own rendition of the LLM and do it alot cheaper and funner plus it's educational.

Where once there was no welder the LLM created welders, sailmakers, mechanics, designers and sailors! It's had its developments and it's short comings as well as successes. With all this in its favor, it's still a cookie cutter yacht.

Innovation has brought this class of yacht to blown out lengths and shows signs of repetition.
The funny thing is that it all comes down to simple geometry, being able to read a rule and preference in execution.

Cookie cutter


Instinctual Innovation

Both winners in their own rights. But only one winner of championships.

Cookie cutters have their place on the shelf but they are in a whole class of their own. All production yachts and yachts built off the same set of plans all fall in this category.

Handbuilts, prototypes and one offs are the leaders in the subject. The different and innovative. The ability to do what you want as a builder or competitor and it be a success in the eyes of the beholder.

I say that any yacht built is a yacht worth building regardless of whether it came from a mold, a drawing, a dream or a cookie cutter!

Sometimes critics bring change but sometimes being differnt and willing to try brings great change.

I support anyone that builds their own, whether it falls apart in 20 feet or goes on to win championships.

This post is open to all! Feel free to comment, add pictures, drawings or ideas. Or even just to badmouth me.

KO

Gizmo
SA, 2809 posts
22 Jun 2017 3:59PM
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The International 5.6 Mini Class has to be the MOST open class of land yachts out there and is certainly NOT a cookie cutter type yacht. The LLmini is just one plan that fits into that class, I suggest have a look for the NALSA pics of the last world championship of the Mini 5.6 class and you see what I mean.... FAR from cookie cutter.

Class 5 is a tad more restrictive but again far from a cookie cutter yacht.

BenBoulder
WA, 241 posts
22 Jun 2017 4:11PM
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By "cookie cutter" do you mean one-design yachts like blokart, standart and mantas..?

Int mini 5.6 is the best for experimenting with design and sails.

All yachts are designed for a purpose and each design is a compromise.

The best design Is the one that fits you, your sailing venue, your sailing style, one that you can actually build, and it's intended purpose.

BB

KAONAONA
209 posts
22 Jun 2017 9:29PM
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Gizmo said..
The International 5.6 Mini Class has to be the MOST open class of land yachts out there and is certainly NOT a cookie cutter type yacht. The LLmini is just one plan that fits into that class, I suggest have a look for the NALSA pics of the last world championship of the Mini 5.6 class and you see what I mean.... FAR from cookie cutter.

Class 5 is a tad more restrictive but again far from a cookie cutter yacht.



I never mentioned the I5.6 class just the LLM.

I looked at every 5.6 at the Worlds when I was there and only two of them were the same, they were both cookie cutter seagulls, the biggest cookie cutter around.

Maybe start suggesting people build a yacht for themselves instead of wholeheartedly pushing the LLM off onto them. Maybe encourage them to execute their own plan, the next big thing just might come along from it.
A little push in the right direction is good but pushing them all toward the same old same old? Just because the LLM can be raced does not make it a competitive design, its a fun yacht and if building for fun, it's perfect.

KAONAONA
209 posts
22 Jun 2017 9:40PM
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BenBoulder said..
By "cookie cutter" do you mean one-design yachts like blokart, standart and mantas..?

Int mini 5.6 is the best for experimenting with design and sails.

All yachts are designed for a purpose and each design is a compromise.



BB



Yes Ben,
All the big box and off the same plan yachts are cookie cutters.

I agree that I5.6 class is a great experimental class but not the best class (in the US) for experimenting.

"The best design Is the one that fits you, your sailing venue, your sailing style, one that you can actually build, and it's intended purpose".
Cha ching! You nailed it Ben!

We need more participants in this thread....

Windcrazy
73 posts
25 Jun 2017 6:04AM
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I don't know if this has anything to do with your discussion but here goes, it kind of reminds me of when I was much younger and played with gas powered toy. The speed shop that I used to purchase most of my parts from had a big sign on the back wall as you came in the door and it stuck in my brain ever since and applies to most things today. "SPEED COSTS, HOW FAST DO YOU WANT TO GO". I got the sailing bug when I was very young and before the internet. My bike and 1 of of moms bed sheet, boy did I get my ass kicked for that one. Many years later I purchased my first landyacht and I was hooked but I'm still in the same boat as I was when I was younger. I never went to fast when I was young and I'm still going slow today. I would love to be able to weld and build the stuff you guys sail today. Anyhow, that's my thoughts on the whole thing, sorry about the rant and enjoy the wind.

windnut

Sylk
WA, 191 posts
25 Jun 2017 3:38PM
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KAONAONA said..

I never mentioned the I5.6 class just the LLM.


5.6 and LLM are the same thing.
Or you could say the LLM design is compliant to the 5.6 class spec.

Still dont understand your point?

landyacht
WA, 5758 posts
25 Jun 2017 3:57PM
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KAONAONA said..



Maybe start suggesting people build a yacht for themselves instead of wholeheartedly pushing the LLM off onto them. Maybe encourage them to execute their own plan, the next big thing just might come along from it.



I suspect your getting a tad confused. for a number of years we hads newbies coming along asking for plans and "how to build a landyacht. even though they wanted to design thier own they needed a start point.the idea behind the plans tht I drew up was to give them a simple refereence point to start from . I recall 1 builder in florida that wouldnt have a bar of a simple mini and was determined to design and build a carbon fibre monoquoc hulled super yacht to sail in his local carpark. someof us are rather busy doing other stuff , even moving on so being able to offer a simple set of plans was a great solution. it should be noted that ben boulder recently purchased the very first "explorer"LLM and won a regatta in it so dont be too fast to poo poo someone elses design.

KAONAONA
209 posts
25 Jun 2017 9:31PM
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I am not badmouthing the design nor am I confused. Like i said before, The design is a great successfull design!
It has allowed many to get into landyachting, including myself (and I thank you for that).
I'm saying that unless there is a LLM class for LLM'S only then there is little chance of it winning a championship. Maybe it's own class (like the mini skeeter class) is exactly what it needs.

Sylk, suggesting that an LLM and an I5.6 are one in the same, that's crazy! Thats like comparing a pedal car to a drag car.

Landyacht, Winning one regatta hardly qualifies as a championship.

No matter what the fastest speed, how good it handles, how easily it is built or the design....It is a purpose built yacht that fits into one box or another and is not of championship caliber. The worlds pretty much solidified that. Not a single LLM placed and the class was won by a "one off" design.
It's still a cookie cutter yacht. There is nothing bad about that.
If you look back you will not find anywhere that I have EVER badmouted anyone or anything on any forum.

I actually promote the building of the LLM because it promotes the sport. Three of my friends have built them but none come close to the design mods that I built into mine (which ended up not being a 5.6 due to the mods).

I am merely suggesting that you ALL help people build a championship yacht or help them achieve the ends of their own one off design or add modifications to the LLM. If that means steering them away from an LLM then do it.
Steer them towards it for fun and away from it to compete.

KAONAONA
209 posts
25 Jun 2017 10:09PM
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Did I mention that the US had minis before anyone. And are the true developers of the class.
It's just that Dennis "Bonehead" Bassano, the president of NALSA at the time, is an ass kisser and a self promoter, relinquished control of the class to FISLY.
OOPS, there I go badmouthing someone, now I can't say I never did that. But that doesn't count because he was a "president" HA.

landyacht
WA, 5758 posts
1 Jul 2017 6:40PM
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ooooh Dennis is a friend of mine , dont know the local politics though. pleas keep in mind that the I5.6 is derived from yachts like the LLM . The difference is the dimensions. The LLM dimensions were set to keepin happy with local blokarts , but when others strated building thier own minis to "compete" with the blokarts a rope rule was suggested by Seagullls JP krischer. this was unanimously adopted. IN my opinion a stock dimension LLM such as the legendary "nappy Rush " or Spirit of Stupidity" could and has won on a national level and have been compettive on an international level
cheers paul

Sylk
WA, 191 posts
2 Jul 2017 7:55AM
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Paul I wouldnt expect much sence from this bloke it's clear he dosent understand the difference between a design or a design specification or between a home made yacht and a monotype.

But then again he lives in acountry that elected the Trump so its hard not to feel sorry for him.

KAONAONA
209 posts
3 Jul 2017 8:02AM
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Sylk said..
Paul I wouldnt expect much sence from this bloke it's clear he dosent understand the difference between a design or a design specification or between a home made yacht and a monotype.

But then again he lives in acountry that elected the Trump so its hard not to feel sorry for him.


Your insulting statements have nothing to do with the topic.
Why don't you impart some intelligence to the conversation??? Or is it that you come from a country that is not known for it's intelligence.
One thing for sure is, you can't just walk on me and not expect me not to stomp you back!!!

KAONAONA
209 posts
3 Jul 2017 3:06PM
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I guess I shouldn't be such an a..hole but if you f..k with bull you get the horns!

KAONAONA
209 posts
13 Jul 2017 11:50AM
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The biggest conflict between a cookie cutter and a custom home built yacht is the affordability of a production yacht and any spec built yacht like the LLM or any other well circulated set of plans/drawings.
When you weigh the options (which are very expensive) the cost is more in the range of the man with money.
My feeling is that's likely to be what keeps most out of this sport because more people don't have money than do!
That leaves most people to have to build one. Most of those people don't have the ability or means to do so.

So here comes the Lake Lefroy Mini (that is very comparable to a production yacht). The LLM enables a person of simple means and limited knowledge and ability to have more of an opportunity to participate and build one of their own, to a simple standard geared toward ease of build, the availability of materials and the equipment needed.
Most of which is just a hand grinder, a handful of cut off and sanding wheels, a few drill bits and a welder! A square and a level help too!
Other than wanting to race and be limited to the spec for the 5.6 class, it's plan is very modifiable to the user so it's even easier to build now because there are less limits making things more practical from a monetary/materials point. I think that makes the LLM a very effective tool with great support that opens the sport to the man with little means!
Any material or any running gear that you think will hold up to the rigors of land sailing will soon become a fun experience. Like I said before, any yacht is a yacht worth building, whether it goes 20 feet or wins championships. You don't have to use performance parts, (sails, mast, wheels, etc) to sail anything you want to build. If all you have is wood, bike wheels and bedsheets then by all means, sail it. Patients and persistence might even get you everything you need for free.

Never worry if your fun is going to, as some might say, devalue a sport designed around those with money!

Build whatever you want, how ever you want or be ready to flop out the cash for a
Cookie Cutter Yacht....

Windcrazy
73 posts
Saturday , 15 Jul 2017 7:12AM
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Well said, goes back to the sign in the speed shop when I was playing with cars. "speed costs, how fast do you want to go"

KAONAONA
209 posts
Saturday , 15 Jul 2017 7:44AM
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Exactly, that's why I built a VW bug when my buddies were building '56 chevys and Camaros. Those tug boats were no match for custom built, light weight, high rev horsepower. I had 5 grand tied up in my whole car where they had that much in motors alone.

It's not that I couldn't afford it at the time I just wanted something different! Kinda like landyachts.



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"The cookie cutter yacht" started by KAONAONA