alternative association

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splitpin
splitpin
104 posts
104 posts
30 Oct 2008 1:13pm
oh the forum has been a bit quiet lately,what happened to the alternative association that was to be formed for those that did not want to join alsa,those that put up the idea have they gone under ground or fallen of the edge of the planet????
Kody
Kody
QLD
190 posts
QLD, 190 posts
30 Oct 2008 9:27pm
We have all been busy enjoying our families, making an honest living, and helping our friends. What have you been doing?

Kody
ps, If you come to Yeppoon next year, keep away from Kody when she is in the car.
splitpin
splitpin
104 posts
104 posts
30 Oct 2008 9:10pm
Kody said...

We have all been busy enjoying our families, making an honest living, and helping our friends. What have you been doing?

Kody
ps, If you come to Yeppoon next year, keep away from Kody when she is in the car.
[/quote ] why would i want to go near your car,and as usual it is all secret landyacht business
cisco
cisco
QLD
12365 posts
QLD, 12365 posts
31 Oct 2008 10:36am
Now, now, now, let's not get nasty here. Remember the rules. Keep it FUN, X 3.

To answer your question split, I think those of us that were exploring the idea of an alternate organisation are giving ALSA time and opportunity to bring itself into the 21st century. At the current rate of progress though, it may take the rest of this century to do it. Then we will have to go through the whole process again.

Are ya gonna stick around for it mate.
Cheers Cisco

P.S. If you keep having those razor blades for breakfast split, you're headed for severe indigestion.
splitpin
splitpin
104 posts
104 posts
31 Oct 2008 12:29pm
cisco said...

Now, now, now, let's not get nasty here. Remember the rules. Keep it FUN, X 3.

To answer your question split, I think those of us that were exploring the idea of an alternate organisation are giving ALSA time and opportunity to bring itself into the 21st century. At the current rate of progress though, it may take the rest of this century to do it. Then we will have to go through the whole process again.

Are ya gonna stick around for it mate.
Cheers Cisco

P.S. If you keep having those razor blades for breakfast split, you're headed for severe indigestion.
I agree with your statements,but how long is long enough as you said could take to the end of time and that wont do the sport any good.
as for the razor blades , we all need a certain amount iron in our diet and i dont suffer from indigestion ,but the subject has to be brought up from time to time other wise it will never happen.

wheelnut
wheelnut
WA
90 posts
WA, 90 posts
1 Nov 2008 8:25am
I do have to agree with Splitpin when is enough enough?
How long does a sport continue without direction?
maybe we need to revisit the forum on these topics
United Land Yachting...Toward the Future
www.seabreeze.com.au/forums/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=37301
Seabreeze Online Landyacht Club
www.seabreeze.com.au/forums/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=37648

One of the important things though is how to include remote sailors of landyachts and not just people sailing in clubs.

The "old" ALSA format and even the new Blokart Assn. model doesn't cope with this.
splitpin
splitpin
104 posts
104 posts
1 Nov 2008 9:50am
wheelnut said...

I do have to agree with Splitpin when is enough enough?
How long does a sport continue without without direction?
maybe we need to revisit the forum on these topics
United Land Yachting...Toward the Future
www.seabreeze.com.au/forums/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=37301
Seabreeze Online Landyacht Club
www.seabreeze.com.au/forums/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=37648

One of the important things though is how to include remote sailors of landyachts and not just people sailing in clubs.

The "old" ALSA format and even the new Blokart Assn. model doesn't cope with this.
yep you sure hit the nail on the head, but as usual you will get shafted for
for bringing up the subject.
cisco
cisco
QLD
12365 posts
QLD, 12365 posts
1 Nov 2008 1:08pm
I agree with you both entirely. The ALSA format is more exclusive than it should be.

A "Seabreeze Online Landyachting Club" is a great idea that could do wonders for the sport. There are obviously plenty of isolated/orphan land sailors out there who would love to be connected.

I am joining the Central Queensland Blokarters Club who are a great bunch of guys based in Mackay and have made the club open to other classes of land yachts.

This is a 7 hour drive north of me but I do not percieve this as a problem as modern communication formats , like this forum, eliminate the tyranny of distance to a large degree.

The question is, why does ALSA still refuse to communicate with the wider community??

Cheers Cisco
splitpin
splitpin
104 posts
104 posts
1 Nov 2008 2:02pm
cisco said...

I agree with you both entirely. The ALSA format is more exclusive than it should be.

A "Seabreeze Online Landyachting Club" is a great idea that could do wonders for the sport. There are obviously plenty of isolated/orphan land sailors out there who would love to be connected.

I am joining the Central Queensland Blokarters Club who are a great bunch of guys based in Mackay and have made the club open to other classes of land yachts.

This is a 7 hour drive north of me but I do not percieve this as a problem as modern communication formats , like this forum, eliminate the tyranny of distance to a large degree.

The question is, why does ALSA still refuse to communicate with the wider community??

Cheers Cisco

HIHO SILVER yes i agree this has been going on for to long,and as you say it doesnot show any interest for the outer metro area sailors,but one can hope and wonder if it will ever be resolved, at one stage some body reported that the west aus club was going to handle it,if that is the case nothing looks like happening but i could be wrong lets hope i am

THEBIGC
THEBIGC
28 posts
28 posts
1 Nov 2008 4:05pm
Hi Guys and Girls maybe
Yep i reckon a remote landsailing club association is fantastic to keep every one informed in the land sailing world but will never work as the remote association will have no way of controllling how you landsail in the remotest paddock beach or part of Australia you are in,as you would all be aware of insurance people like these thing to kept well controlled.
My thoughts anyway so dont start shooting me down guys.
splitpin
splitpin
104 posts
104 posts
1 Nov 2008 4:22pm
THEBIGC said...

Hi Guys and Girls maybe
Yep i reckon a remote landsailing club association is fantastic to keep every one informed in the land sailing world but will never work as the remote association will have no way of controllling how you landsail in the remotest paddock beach or part of Australia you are in,as you would all be aware of insurance people like these thing to kept well controlled.
My thoughts anyway so dont start shooting me down guys.
good point did not think of that,oh we will just have to keep the pressure on alsa or which state is responsible for running the show so we can some action .the way it is going it appears to be going down the drain, and not many sailors appear to care

wheelnut
wheelnut
WA
90 posts
WA, 90 posts
1 Nov 2008 4:56pm
What has insurance to do with ALSA as they are the overall governing body.
Insurance is up to the local clubs or individuals, as laws do change from state to state and even site to site.
Please read a copy of the constitution posted somewhere on seabreeze.
ALSA is not responsible for everything for everybody in landsailing.
landyacht
landyacht
WA
5921 posts
WA, 5921 posts
1 Nov 2008 7:29pm
Wiil the alternative assoc allow membership to anonymous individuals that dont want anyone to know any details , not even gauge or thread size. I'd hope not
port
port
VIC
446 posts
VIC, 446 posts
1 Nov 2008 10:12pm
w.t f .r u on about Paul
InlandSailor
InlandSailor
44 posts
44 posts
1 Nov 2008 8:36pm
G'day all,
Please excuse me for my question regarding the various associations representing Land Sailing, but is there any history as to why Yachting Australia isn't the umbrella organization representing wind powered sports? It has taken some time but Cricket Australia represents all levels of cricket both Male and Female, Kanga, district, state etc. Therefore, it would make some kind of sense that the state bodies and YA could represent LS as well as MS as they have all the structures in place!!!!
port
port
VIC
446 posts
VIC, 446 posts
1 Nov 2008 10:39pm
Yes
but some people have other issues to sort out first.
splitpin
splitpin
104 posts
104 posts
1 Nov 2008 9:02pm
landyacht said...

Wiil the alternative assoc allow membership to anonymous individuals that dont want anyone to know any details , not even gauge or thread size. I'd hope not
what is your hang up you cant get along with alsa from what i have seen on the forum

BeeGee
BeeGee
VIC
99 posts
VIC, 99 posts
2 Nov 2008 9:31pm
InlandSailor said...

G'day all,
Please excuse me for my question regarding the various associations representing Land Sailing, but is there any history as to why Yachting Australia isn't the umbrella organization representing wind powered sports?


The first thing to assess is what one needs from an Association. Before deciding whether it is YA, ALSA, or some other Association one must first ask the questions "what do we want?" and if it is an existing Association, "what do they provide?" If YA does not provide what land sailors need, then it is probably not in the best interest of either YA or the land sailing community to join.

So, a question for Wheelnut. If an Association for remote land sailors existed, what would you want it to do for you?
wheelnut
wheelnut
WA
90 posts
WA, 90 posts
2 Nov 2008 8:00pm
The answer to that question is simple "INCLUSION"
Its hard enough living away from the capital city, let alone not having a say in the sport you love.
We have no say in ALSA or any other matters that involve the sport.
I think the diagram "Cisco" posted back in May 08 shows how it could work.
BeeGee
BeeGee
VIC
99 posts
VIC, 99 posts
2 Nov 2008 10:32pm
Wheelnut: "Inclusion" is a nice, fuzzy, feel-good word. I was asking something a little more concrete.

As you may or may not be aware, I am pushing to get a national association up and running for blokarts. There is a definite gap and a role that needs fulfilling, hence the need for the association. Without a distinct purpose, an association is nothing more than an empty shell that at best, does nothing and at worst, just gets in the way.

Cisco's diagram has a flaw on the blokart side that highlights one of the issues. Blokart Australia is a commercial operation that is focussed on selling blokarts. It reports to Blokart International in New Zealand. This is as it should be. What is lacking in Australia is a group to look after the sport as distinct from blokart sales. Speedo doesn't run swimming. Umbro doesn't run soccer.

My question was a serious one that requires more than a simplistic, one word answer. If you see a need for an association, then what is that need? What is the purpose of the association?
wheelnut
wheelnut
WA
90 posts
WA, 90 posts
2 Nov 2008 8:52pm
So BeeGee what have you done to make the remote Blokart sailors feel welcome?
Or are they on the outer looking at the blokart / landyacht clubs feeling like a shag on a rock!!
The diagram shown was posted some 6 months ago, im sure the names in the boxes and the number of boxes were just an example of a hypothetical structure.
Maybe i suggest that you start a thread on seabreeze and the blokart forum to actually see what people want from a national association, rather than just my views.
BeeGee
BeeGee
VIC
99 posts
VIC, 99 posts
2 Nov 2008 11:34pm
No need to jump down my throat! My question was genuine and not intended to be confrontational.

Membership of our local Melbourne-based club is open to anyone who wants to apply We had a regular visitor who came all the way from Port Fairy. I used the past tense because she has since moved to Melbourne and does not have to travel so far.

The info on the proposed blokart association was posted on the blokart forum some time ago seeking ideas and input.

Yet again, the question remains. What would an association do for you?

Have you thought of pulling your finger out and starting something yourself, or do you like to just hide behind your anonymity and whinge.
hills
hills
SA
1622 posts
SA, 1622 posts
2 Nov 2008 11:26pm
BeeGee said...

The info on the proposed blokart association was posted on the blokart forum some time ago seeking ideas and input.


I remember that thread over there, there were some good ideas in it, where has it gone? Do threads age out and get deleted or something?
BeeGee
BeeGee
VIC
99 posts
VIC, 99 posts
3 Nov 2008 12:03am
It's still there. It is in the "General News & Announcements" section. Make sure the combo box at the button is set to "All" to display all topics.
hills
hills
SA
1622 posts
SA, 1622 posts
3 Nov 2008 12:05am
Ahh, thanks, got it!!
splitpin
splitpin
104 posts
104 posts
3 Nov 2008 4:04pm
BeeGee said...

No need to jump down my throat! My question was genuine and not intended to be confrontational.

Membership of our local Melbourne-based club is open to anyone who wants to apply We had a regular visitor who came all the way from Port Fairy. I used the past tense because she has since moved to Melbourne and does not have to travel so far.

The info on the proposed blokart association was posted on the blokart forum some time ago seeking ideas and input.

Yet again, the question remains. What would an association do for you?

Have you thought of pulling your finger out and starting something yourself, or do you like to just hide behind your anonymity and whinge.

the pot calling the kettle black,your profile just like mine tells you nothing
wheelnut
wheelnut
WA
90 posts
WA, 90 posts
3 Nov 2008 4:40pm
Well you ask what a "National Body" for landsailing do for me?
I would like a National Body for Landsailing to do these things.

1. To govern, develop and advance the sport of land sailing in Australia.
2. To promote, supervise and control the competitions for land sailing bodies and members.
3. To encourage land sailing bodies in Australia to affiliate with the Association, and to give all possible assistance to them in order to promote the sport.
4. To lay down standards, regulate and adjudicate over all facets of the sport to achieve co-ordination of the bodies and their aims.
5. To establish and maintain contact with overseas land sailing bodies for exchange of advancements in the sport and to encourage representation at international competitions

If these things were to happen we (all in the landsailing community) would have a much better sport!!
I think you would have to agree!!


hills
hills
SA
1622 posts
SA, 1622 posts
3 Nov 2008 7:09pm
splitpin said...

BeeGee said...

No need to jump down my throat! My question was genuine and not intended to be confrontational.

Membership of our local Melbourne-based club is open to anyone who wants to apply We had a regular visitor who came all the way from Port Fairy. I used the past tense because she has since moved to Melbourne and does not have to travel so far.

The info on the proposed blokart association was posted on the blokart forum some time ago seeking ideas and input.

Yet again, the question remains. What would an association do for you?

Have you thought of pulling your finger out and starting something yourself, or do you like to just hide behind your anonymity and whinge.

the pot calling the kettle black,your profile just like mine tells you nothing



WTF?!? It has his first and last name!! Mine used to have my last name too, but I removed it when you lot turned up.

the doctor
the doctor
NSW
18 posts
NSW, 18 posts
3 Nov 2008 9:02pm
Bee Gee
The way you are going is a big plus for blokarting and land yachting in general.
I am sure if some of the knockers came "out of the closet" and put their energy behind you it might move things in a more forward direction.
It is really easy to find fault but a lot harder to find solutions and that is what we all need to do, move forward.
the doctor










BeeGee
BeeGee
VIC
99 posts
VIC, 99 posts
3 Nov 2008 9:35pm
splitpin said...

the pot calling the kettle black,your profile just like mine tells you nothing



It's not so much the lack of info in the profile, but the whinging that got under my skin, although I note that Wheelnut has finally taken my advice and put some thought into what he actually wants. It is sadly all too common for a small group of people to be left put in all the work to build up clubs and associations, organise events, and basically do the slog work that no one else wants to do. Then, to have someone just sit back and whinge about what these people are not doing for *them* is the height of arrogance. End of lecture.

So, to Wheelnut, regarding your points:-

1. Agreed. It is a bit 'motherhoody' but it needs to be stated. The association needs to be careful on the 'govern' part. I'll cover that later.

2. Agreed again. One problem in the blokart community is the number of events and the need to ensure the calendars don't clash. If the national body runs the competitions, it could find itself way to busy. In the blokarting community, competitions tend to be run by host clubs which spreads the workload. A national body could provide support and resources, but leave the detailed work to the hot club.

3. The encouragement to affiliate comes from the service the association provides. Assisting the clubs is definitely the way to go. As the first properly incorprated blokart club, I have lost count of the number of phone calls I have received from people wanting to do the same thing. A national body can provide a focal point to assist clubs in getting started. People join local clubs. Clubs join national associations. If the national association does not support the clubs, it effectively cuts off its own life support.

4. Standards are important, especially in a one design class. It was an area that was lacking at an international level. It's still not fixed, but is well on its way. Regulation is also important, especially as THEBIGC mentioned, if the association was effectively providing insurance cover to affiliated clubs. All it takes is one rogue club doing something dopey and making a claim, and all clubs suffer by either not being able to renew the policy, or renewing it with much higher premiums.

5. Absolutely. A good example is the standards setting for blokarts. The Australian rep is currently drawn from the Melbourne Blokart Club simply because we instigated the standards body, but what is appropriate is for the rep to be drawn from a body representing all clubs.

On the subject of 'govern', this can be taken two ways. Providing leadership, vision, and supporting the affiliated clubs benefits everyone. Unfortunately, some see 'govern' as control. A national body should look on its affiliated clubs in the same way a business looks on its customers rather than the way a general looks on his troops. There is no law that can force clubs to affiliate, so if a national body behaves like the general, it can spell death. A national body must be able to provide value to its affiliated clubs, otherwise they simply will not join. No club committee could justify paying over members money to a national body that does nothing for it.

You have talked of issues for people in remote areas. I am assuming you are in this situation yourself. What are the difficulties you face that are characteristic of your remoteness where you see an association can help? I don't know whether you sail a blokart or one of the Class 'x' land yachts, but I suspect the answer will influence what you see the national body as doing.
cisco
cisco
QLD
12365 posts
QLD, 12365 posts
4 Nov 2008 10:36am
I think we are heading in the right direction here ladies and gentlemen.

My diagram should have read "Australian Blokart Association" or similar, sorry.

Wheelnut's response on what he wants from an association fairly well encapsulates it for me. Subject to some clarification and definitions on some of the specifics.

To his first response, "Inclusion", I would add "Openness".

An arguement I put forward last time we had a thread similar to this is that there is no need to "reinvent the wheel" and the sport is not big enough to warrant running parallel organisations (eg a la Formula 1 and Indy Cars).

I think the Australian "Yachting Association" is a good structural model for us to emulate but I do not think it would be beneficial for us at all to be part of it.

Given the nature of our sport and the people doing it, seems to me we will be better off and happier being the big part of our own smaller organisation than being a small part of someone elses big organisation.

There is a structure in place with local and international affiliations.
It is called the "Australian Land Sailing Association", but they ain't playing the game properly yet.

So the question is "Will ALSA open itself to all classes of land yachts and communicate with the wider land sailing community on a free and open forum such as this one (the obvious choice)."

A simple yes or no answer will suffice, then we can all get on with it one way or the other.

Cheers Cisco
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