Forums > Sailing General

Defiance - the original

Reply
Created by lydia > 9 months ago, 10 Nov 2016
samsturdy
NSW, 1267 posts
26 Jan 2018 3:02PM
Thumbs Up

Select to expand quote
lydia said..

samsturdy said..
Absolutely first class Lydia. I'm with Shaggy on the engineering and craftsmanship, they are a joy to behold. Don't you
think such labour intensive structures such as wooden boats retain the spirit of the craftsmen that build them ?.



This is pretty scary comment as it means some of my earlier timber boats have had the spirit of some very scary people!


Does that include you ???

lydia
693 posts
26 Jan 2018 1:22PM
Thumbs Up

So this is my third timber boat restoration and I recommend everyone do it at least once but like everything there are rules.

1. Pick the boat that is as close as possible to original condition and configuration.
The last thing you want is somebody's better idea.
With Defiance, I am sure the S&S office knew best.

2, The most expensive work will be repairing modifications (if you call them that) done after build.
With Defiance the biggest repairs which should not have been required was removing a poorly installed anchor well and dealing with the consequences such as rot in the stem because of it and the need to replace three layers of planking caused by the failure to properly repair a leaking skin fitting.

3. Do not update the boat to 2018 but keep it a close as possible to original save for modern sail handling gear and electronics but simple is always best.
With Defiance there is no attempt to change the interior layout or cockpit. (Although Phil tells me the v berth was added since new but from the workmanship I am pretty sure I know whose work it is.)

4, Deal with the big issues as soon a possible so cosmetic issues (which people always want to do first) are well last on the list.
With defiance it was deal with rot on the deck, worm in the rudder and skin fitting repairs so the boat was sound and could sit until the next stage.

5. A good restoration costs a great deal of money but a cheap renovation of an old boat is not a renovation at all.

6. Make it fun and rewarding, by doing the research and getting the history.
People are generally great in helping, (special mention to Phil) as over time, for instance I have tracked down the original ad placed by Doug Booker (the builder) seeking a contract for a second build.
The motor sailer shown above was brought half sunk with no knowledge of the history but turned out to be very significant boat with great history and on hearing of the restoration the son of the original owner send me pics of the launch day in 1966 which had been displayed at his father's recent funeral service.
In the case of Defiance, if no one moved it was to cut up and dumped at the end of the week I intervened otherwise it was lost forever.
My weakness!

7. You find good candidates for restoration in unlikely places.
I first saw the Motorsailer up a creek north of Bribie island and thought at the time, WTF is that doing there.
About a year later broker I keep in contact with called saying I might have something with me not knowing it was the same boat.
I had seen Defiance in the storage yard but heard of the redevelopment of it,so tracked down the owner,now in London!

So this not the complete list but just a few thoughts.
Cheers

lydia
693 posts
26 Jan 2018 1:25PM
Thumbs Up

Select to expand quote
samsturdy said..

lydia said..


samsturdy said..
Absolutely first class Lydia. I'm with Shaggy on the engineering and craftsmanship, they are a joy to behold. Don't you
think such labour intensive structures such as wooden boats retain the spirit of the craftsmen that build them ?.




This is pretty scary comment as it means some of my earlier timber boats have had the spirit of some very scary people!



Does that include you ???


Sam, I cruise the very south of Tasmania when I am not working, I enjoy doing restorations of old timber boats, so that is a good start!

lydia
693 posts
26 Jan 2018 1:37PM
Thumbs Up

On a different note I was talking to Shaggy this morning about barographs.
Here a big front on the South Coast about 5 years ago. (ignore temp)


Ramona
NSW, 4448 posts
26 Jan 2018 5:05PM
Thumbs Up

Select to expand quote
lydia said..

Ramona said..
Putting the V drive back in?



R, no v drive, it was a major decision as Vetus make a good V gear box but with the small size of new engines decision was made to fit a straight gear box and a new 27hp Vetus.
We will lose a little cabin space and the engine box will be the stairs so not losing that much usable space either but the simplicity was the key point.
Rough calculations show we will move the fuel tank and batteries (currently under a bunk) to the centre line aft of the new engine. so trim should be very close.
And I would rather have those items on the centre line.
The 27hp Vetus is lighter than the 20hp Lister which came out.
This has been the biggest lost cost on the job so far as I was pretty sure I could sort out the Lister, but at some time probarly to stop an overheat problem someone removed the heat exchanger core and was running raw water through both sides of the cooling system.
The boat then sat on the hard for 9 years without the system drained.
Damage to the cooling galleries would always be unknown and the water pumps needed complete replacement.
I could not have known this at the start but that is the risk you take.
Things you find out as you go

Select to expand quote



Mate with the alloy Cole 42 just rebuilt his V drive. The bloke in West Sydney that made all these V drives is still going.

SandS
VIC, 5323 posts
26 Jan 2018 6:46PM
Thumbs Up

Select to expand quote
Ramona said..

lydia said..


Ramona said..
Putting the V drive back in?




R, no v drive, it was a major decision as Vetus make a good V gear box but with the small size of new engines decision was made to fit a straight gear box and a new 27hp Vetus.
We will lose a little cabin space and the engine box will be the stairs so not losing that much usable space either but the simplicity was the key point.
Rough calculations show we will move the fuel tank and batteries (currently under a bunk) to the centre line aft of the new engine. so trim should be very close.
And I would rather have those items on the centre line.
The 27hp Vetus is lighter than the 20hp Lister which came out.
This has been the biggest lost cost on the job so far as I was pretty sure I could sort out the Lister, but at some time probarly to stop an overheat problem someone removed the heat exchanger core and was running raw water through both sides of the cooling system.
The boat then sat on the hard for 9 years without the system drained.
Damage to the cooling galleries would always be unknown and the water pumps needed complete replacement.
I could not have known this at the start but that is the risk you take.
Things you find out as you go





Mate with the alloy Cole 42 just rebuilt his V drive. The bloke in West Sydney that made all these V drives is still going.


whats a v drive ?

lydia
693 posts
26 Jan 2018 4:53PM
Thumbs Up

Engine faces aft usually under cockpit with shaft facing forward before connecting to v drive which ha s separate shaft going aft to the shaft log and out aft

SandS
VIC, 5323 posts
26 Jan 2018 7:15PM
Thumbs Up

Select to expand quote
lydia said..
Engine faces aft usually under cockpit with shaft facing forward before connecting to v drive which ha s separate shaft going aft to the shaft log and out aft


thanks , .....interesting , were they popular ?

lydia
693 posts
26 Jan 2018 5:33PM
Thumbs Up

Not really, makes engine set up more compact but if separate v drive there is extra noise where gearbox v drive is better.
looked a power boat design the other day with 300hp through v drive gear box.
in late IOR days where you tried to get the shaft way forward at back at keel saw v drive with engine in centre of boat

SandS
VIC, 5323 posts
26 Jan 2018 7:53PM
Thumbs Up

yes the weight forward really helps them get up and boogie !!

cisco
QLD, 10768 posts
26 Jan 2018 9:35PM
Thumbs Up

Select to expand quote
lydia said..
1. Pick the boat that is as close as possible to original condition and configuration.
2, The most expensive work will be repairing modifications (if you call them that) done after build.
3. Do not update the boat to 2018 but keep it a close as possible to original save for modern sail handling gear and electronics but simple is always best.
4, Deal with the big issues as soon a possible so cosmetic issues (which people always want to do first) are well last on the list.
5. A good restoration costs a great deal of money but a cheap renovation of an old boat is not a renovation at all.
6. Make it fun and rewarding, by doing the research and getting the history.
7. You find good candidates for restoration in unlikely places.




I am going through all that with my Lotus 9.2.

Dragging all the crap out the previous owner put in to make it supposedly more pretty.

Originality is everything with yachts, the same as it is with cars.

Do not ever think you are smarter than the designer.

PhilY
NSW, 74 posts
27 Jan 2018 6:15AM
Thumbs Up

Lydia
I spoke with Doug Brookers daughter a bit last week and she mentioned about the restoration of Defiance to Doug. He's keen to see updatesand photos, so I'll pass his details on offline.
Keep up the good work. Waiting for that sail.

shaggybaxter
QLD, 1235 posts
27 Jan 2018 8:12AM
Thumbs Up

Select to expand quote
lydia said..
On a different note I was talking to Shaggy this morning about barographs.
Here a big front on the South Coast about 5 years ago. (ignore temp)



I don't know if I ever want to see that graph when I'm at sea! Lydia, I take it that is a 24hr period? The 976hpa is one thing, it's the speed and the depth of the pressure drop that is the jaw opener.

To explain further, Lydia and I as a bit of a hobby are trying to work out how to improve the GRIB data for some known race courses at race time. This means downloading the various GRIB formats, sailing around lots, and then comparing the gribs against real time information in a attempt to build an information database where we can look for trends/patterns and then attempt to determine the nuances of the models available.

For example, GFS is accurate for Byron Bay in its predictions, but is generally 12 hours out. Or that ECWMF is accurate on the timing, but does not have the resolution to show the katabatic breeze influence near shore. etc etc.
When we did the last Gladstone, I was logging all the real time wind info as well as the boat track, then after the race I compared it to the 4 x GRIB models. One in particular was dead accurate, except for when we got the katabatic breeze of Bustard Head (wind was 90 deg out from predicted)
A strip chart showing pressure (such as Lydia's Suunto) is part of the solution as it allows you to compare the pressure in real time and overlay that with your GRIB files. This can help determine if the GRIB is accurate, as wind speed is a direct by-product of the wind pressure.
I want to do the 4 models, GFS, ECMWF and the two tweaked versions from Predictwind being PWE and PWG.

Have you seen what the CSIRO are doing? Autonomous drones that can be sailed around that provide real time wind and ocean data. Now that is cool!
www.computerworld.com.au/article/632573/csiro-launch-sailing-drones-monitor-southern-ocean/?

Sorry for the thread hijack, back to regular programming.




Chris 249
NSW, 1621 posts
28 Jan 2018 9:56PM
Thumbs Up

Oh well, I've hacked around my own wooden half tonner a lot. Her issue is that while the Defiance was a very good example of a classic and well-sorted type, mine was rather experimental and very much limited by the rig and foil technology of the day.

Most of the standard examples of my half tonner have a hard time dealing with Folkboats and Holland 25s; the modified version plays with Holland 30s and S 80s, and is easier and nicer to cruise.

There's lots of different approaches. It's great that Lydia saved Defiance, which was a leader in a great era of Australian offshore racing.

Windancer
QLD, 98 posts
30 Jan 2018 10:16PM
Thumbs Up

Select to expand quote
lydia said..
So this is my third timber boat restoration and I recommend everyone do it at least once but like everything there are rules.

1. Pick the boat that is as close as possible to original condition and configuration.
The last thing you want is somebody's better idea.
With Defiance, I am sure the S&S office knew best.

2, The most expensive work will be repairing modifications (if you call them that) done after build.
With Defiance the biggest repairs which should not have been required was removing a poorly installed anchor well and dealing with the consequences such as rot in the stem because of it and the need to replace three layers of planking caused by the failure to properly repair a leaking skin fitting.

3. Do not update the boat to 2018 but keep it a close as possible to original save for modern sail handling gear and electronics but simple is always best.
With Defiance there is no attempt to change the interior layout or cockpit. (Although Phil tells me the v berth was added since new but from the workmanship I am pretty sure I know whose work it is.)

4, Deal with the big issues as soon a possible so cosmetic issues (which people always want to do first) are well last on the list.
With defiance it was deal with rot on the deck, worm in the rudder and skin fitting repairs so the boat was sound and could sit until the next stage.

5. A good restoration costs a great deal of money but a cheap renovation of an old boat is not a renovation at all.

6. Make it fun and rewarding, by doing the research and getting the history.
People are generally great in helping, (special mention to Phil) as over time, for instance I have tracked down the original ad placed by Doug Booker (the builder) seeking a contract for a second build.
The motor sailer shown above was brought half sunk with no knowledge of the history but turned out to be very significant boat with great history and on hearing of the restoration the son of the original owner send me pics of the launch day in 1966 which had been displayed at his father's recent funeral service.
In the case of Defiance, if no one moved it was to cut up and dumped at the end of the week I intervened otherwise it was lost forever.
My weakness!

7. You find good candidates for restoration in unlikely places.
I first saw the Motorsailer up a creek north of Bribie island and thought at the time, WTF is that doing there.
About a year later broker I keep in contact with called saying I might have something with me not knowing it was the same boat.
I had seen Defiance in the storage yard but heard of the redevelopment of it,so tracked down the owner,now in London!

So this not the complete list but just a few thoughts.
Cheers


Excellent advice!

lydia
693 posts
14 Feb 2018 4:11PM
Thumbs Up

This is never the pretty part, old engine out, tanks out, rig out, dusk everywhere from fairing inside coach house roof.
It is all up from here however.






SandS
VIC, 5323 posts
14 Feb 2018 7:07PM
Thumbs Up

good work !! keep going !

shaggybaxter
QLD, 1235 posts
14 Feb 2018 8:49PM
Thumbs Up

Wahoo!! Just looking at that makes my back and neck start hurting!

lydia
693 posts
22 Mar 2018 8:46AM
Thumbs Up

Not much happening last few weeks as to too much rain to properly paint.
So stay tuned!

hoop
WA, 1373 posts
22 Mar 2018 9:07PM
Thumbs Up

Hi Lydia, she looks like a beautifully built boat and you're doing a great job restoring her.
There must be close to as much work in the restoration as it would have been in the original build.

lydia
693 posts
23 Mar 2018 5:55AM
Thumbs Up

Select to expand quote
lydia said..
So this is my third timber boat restoration and I recommend everyone do it at least once but like everything there are rules.

1. Pick the boat that is as close as possible to original condition and configuration.
The last thing you want is somebody's better idea.
With Defiance, I am sure the S&S office knew best.

2, The most expensive work will be repairing modifications (if you call them that) done after build.
With Defiance the biggest repairs which should not have been required was removing a poorly installed anchor well and dealing with the consequences such as rot in the stem because of it and the need to replace three layers of planking caused by the failure to properly repair a leaking skin fitting.

3. Do not update the boat to 2018 but keep it a close as possible to original save for modern sail handling gear and electronics but simple is always best.
With Defiance there is no attempt to change the interior layout or cockpit. (Although Phil tells me the v berth was added since new but from the workmanship I am pretty sure I know whose work it is.)

4, Deal with the big issues as soon a possible so cosmetic issues (which people always want to do first) are well last on the list.
With defiance it was deal with rot on the deck, worm in the rudder and skin fitting repairs so the boat was sound and could sit until the next stage.

5. A good restoration costs a great deal of money but a cheap renovation of an old boat is not a renovation at all.

6. Make it fun and rewarding, by doing the research and getting the history.
People are generally great in helping, (special mention to Phil) as over time, for instance I have tracked down the original ad placed by Doug Booker (the builder) seeking a contract for a second build.
The motor sailer shown above was brought half sunk with no knowledge of the history but turned out to be very significant boat with great history and on hearing of the restoration the son of the original owner send me pics of the launch day in 1966 which had been displayed at his father's recent funeral service.
In the case of Defiance, if no one moved it was to cut up and dumped at the end of the week I intervened otherwise it was lost forever.
My weakness!

7. You find good candidates for restoration in unlikely places.
I first saw the Motorsailer up a creek north of Bribie island and thought at the time, WTF is that doing there.
About a year later broker I keep in contact with called saying I might have something with me not knowing it was the same boat.
I had seen Defiance in the storage yard but heard of the redevelopment of it,so tracked down the owner,now in London!

So this not the complete list but just a few thoughts.
Cheers



Hoop, to add the the list:

8. Unless you have unlimited funds do not try to do it all at once and more importantly your view of what is important will change over time.

9. Waiting to get the right people is more important than a quick finish to the job (it is not a new built with a deadline)
In my case I have been incredible fortunate to have two great teams on the job at different times.
(Don't put your chest out too far there Boty)

10. Be patient about progress, and don't over manage it.
At present we are in rainy season so the cosmetic stuff is slow.
I only usually only check the boat every Sunday morning take some pics then have a few phones call early in the week.
But you must always keep talking to the guys doing the work.

11. Have a realistic budget from the start.
This one will cost about 25 times what I paid for the boat to start with but at the end I don't have a 47 year old boat what I have is a 47 year old boat with a 2018 engine, a 2018 paint job and rigging and electrics. And a useful life of another 47 years.
So in real terms it will be a bit less than twice the cost of a GRP Savage Defiance 30 if you did a new engine rigging and electrics and paint job so you had like with like.
So for me I am happy to pay that price for the history!

12. It has to be a boat you want long term.
I used to keep an old Etchells in the water for twilights but objection from the girls in the family was that there was no loo and you sat on the boat not in it so to speak. (Might spill the Chardonnay)
So Defiance has a loo the size of a cabin and you sit in the cockpit not on the boat.

Lastly Hoop I see there is a good candidate for a restoration in WA at present on Gumtree

ecan
9 posts
23 Mar 2018 7:34AM
Thumbs Up

Lydia,

you speak of another potential restoration project in Perth...Care to share?

First rule of projects, never finish one without at least one more to start!

lydia
693 posts
23 Mar 2018 7:41AM
Thumbs Up

Select to expand quote
ecan said..
Lydia,

you speak of another potential restoration project in Perth...Care to share?

First rule of projects, never finish one without at least one more to start!



Have to be some history here?
Len Randell design built by Steve Ward (Australia 2 builder)

www.gumtree.com.au/s-ad/claremont/sail-boats/save-me-from-the-chainsaw/1178735637

Andrew68
VIC, 182 posts
23 Mar 2018 1:18PM
Thumbs Up

Select to expand quote


Love the sales pitch "save me from the chainsaw"

Looks like quite a tidy boat.

A

boty
QLD, 424 posts
23 Mar 2018 3:03PM
Thumbs Up

Select to expand quote
lydia said..

ecan said..
Lydia,

you speak of another potential restoration project in Perth...Care to share?

First rule of projects, never finish one without at least one more to start!




Have to be some history here?
Len Randell design built by Steve Ward (Australia 2 builder)

www.gumtree.com.au/s-ad/claremont/sail-boats/save-me-from-the-chainsaw/1178735637


your right looks viable boat for restoration

lydia
693 posts
6 May 2018 6:57AM
Thumbs Up

Rain finally stopped




PhilY
NSW, 74 posts
7 May 2018 12:26PM
Thumbs Up

Can't wait for the finished product CC.

lydia
693 posts
21 May 2018 7:20PM
Thumbs Up

Select to expand quote
PhilY said..
Can't wait for the finished product CC.


Phil, you better book in 14/15 July for the Qld Ton of Fun IOR regatta. (aka Re-launch party)
There, I have put the hex on the project.

cisco
QLD, 10768 posts
21 May 2018 10:21PM
Thumbs Up

Select to expand quote

lydia said..

Phil, you better book in 14/15 July for the Qld Ton of Fun IOR regatta. (aka Re-launch party)
There, I have put the hex on the project.


You better count me in on that one. If there is no re-naming we can drink the Moet instead of splashing it on the keel.

lydia
693 posts
23 May 2018 6:47AM
Thumbs Up

Cisco
Stay tuned.
News at eleven
L



Subscribe
Reply

Forums > Sailing General


"Defiance - the original" started by lydia