How do think we get etchells in and out of the dock

I once saw a British RYA examiner set a problem for a yacht master candidate which was to sail a boat in reverse and upwind off a marina berth in 20 knots.

You just have to think about it.

lydia said..
I once saw a British RYA examiner set a problem for a yacht master candidate which was to sail a boat in reverse and upwind off a marina berth in 20 knots.

You just have to think about it.

Eek.....
Ok, that is doing my head in. Thinking this through...
Don't know how you could create a leading edge from a leach without resulting in huge drag , so the sails are out.
If you had enough current one could angle it against the current and use the lift from the keel?
- Keep a bow spring on and a bow line, easing the stern line.
- Angle the stern out till the keel starts generating lift. You should know if its working if the bow spring goes slack.
-Drop lines, focus on the keel AoA, and hope like hell you don't have to 'tack' to avoid hitting the neighbouring row?

Problem is, you don't get enough current in a normal marina.
Other than that, I'm fresh out of ideas?

Edit: Hmmm...I could use a staysail hanked on to the babystay and sheet to the front of the bowsprit, but your clew would be high and unmanageable. One could try hanking a sail onto the backstay, 'cept I don't have a backstay ..sigh.

boty said..
a practical skill that all should think about i have had to do that on many occasions with engine trouble the worst was docking a50 foot ketch at tin can after the prop shaft broke it was a bit of a mission sailing up snapper creek to windward and then stopping 20 ton

Eek x2....
Stuff of nightmares. That's when having a good crew is a blessing. I'm picky on choosing a delivery crew for this reason, 'cos things like this always seem to happen on deliveries!

shaggybaxter said..

lydia said..
I once saw a British RYA examiner set a problem for a yacht master candidate which was to sail a boat in reverse and upwind off a marina berth in 20 knots.

You just have to think about it.

Aaah...
how about using a topping lift as a forestay. Clip to the boom, tension with mainsheet and topper. Hank a storm jib onto the topping lift and use your main halyard to hoist. Sheet to turning blocks on toerails somewhere near the sidestays?
I hope not, as aside from no backstay I don't have a topping lift either....

Close!
Hank the storm jib to the backstay and sheet forward
Or in your case the book topping lift.
Well done

Years ago I had a pose trick where I could reverse park my Mottle 33 behind the jetty at our local sailing club by drifting in slowly upwind under sail until past the jetty then getting the crew to push out the boom hard to throw her into reverse. The boat would slowly stop then sail backwards and we could reverse in. A trick only possible in light winds and saved up for when girlfriends were onboard. I had to give up on it though on the last occasion I did it. We came alongside beautifully, tied off the lines and as I was jumping ashore the boom swung across and cracked my head! That taught me no more posing!!! I still have the lump today

Just make sure there aren't too many other boats around when attempting this kind of thing.
i once had an aluminium trailer sailer cave my transom in when it couldnt bear off in time after reversing under sail from a ramp.

I think the RYA question is pretty silly. It is much more prudent not to sail out in those conditions. If vital then use a line to a kedge anchor taken out to windward in the dinghy or in a pinch on a fender with you in your PFD 2, or to a windward bollard or marina finger. Slowly winch yourself out backwards, then when in midstream use a second line to go bow up and then either bouy the anchor and leave or slip the line and head off. I think setting a sail on your backstay is a tricky thing no one is going to do well. I once ended up in my cat on a sandbar in a gale. By the time I knew the game was up we were pushed 50 metres up the shoal. I walked the kedge out almost 100 metres to deep water and spent the next hour or two slowly winding us off - messengers to the anchor line led to each sheet winch. This is much better skill to learn than stuffing around with silly theoretical situations. Trust the kedge - and ensure you have a good lightweight danforth on board with 100 metres of nylon. That will get you out of lots of problems. Including dodgy examiners trying to trick you (this from a person with over 20 years in education)

Okay - this has really got my goat. When we sheet on normally in 20 knots we have the rig balanced - so that the CE is pretty much over the CLR. Then when you come out of a tack stalled, the keel is high drag but the boat stays balanced until you get flow and then we trim up and speed up. But the jib on the backstay is way way out behind the keel and CLR. So when you sheet it on the stern will fall away and whack the boat next to you. And the boat feels nothing like normal, with waves banging on the big bum instead of a nice bow and your transom doing a good impression of a high drag brick. Imagine trying to do this the right way around with just a storm jib on the bow. The bow would blow away straightaway and before you got steerage way there would be carnage in the marina. When I looked into chartering in the Med I was told that I would need to get one of these RYA certs. I found out it was about six hundred and two days in the harbour. Can I show you some boats I have built, cruises along the coast, years lived aboard, races and champs won? No, we want a certificate. So we went car camping instead. I thought the indignation had died down, I find that it has not. I will now take a Bex and have a lie down.

tarquin1 said..

lydia said..
I once saw a British RYA examiner set a problem for a yacht master candidate which was to sail a boat in reverse and upwind off a marina berth in 20 knots.

You just have to think about it.

I don't think it is prudent to leave the dock with no engine in 20 kts.
If they insist call the harbour master and ask to be towed out.

It was game that gets played that all to demonstrate what is possible
I never suggested every one do it

The problem is people getting taught this. Then they go oh well the engine isn't working we can just sail off the dock. Bad seamanship I think. Thats just my opinion.
An old boy once said to me you sail ONTO the dock when your engine isn't working not off it.

Subsonic said..

lydia said..

tarquin1 said..

lydia said..
I once saw a British RYA examiner set a problem for a yacht master candidate which was to sail a boat in reverse and upwind off a marina berth in 20 knots.

You just have to think about it.

I don't think it is prudent to leave the dock with no engine in 20 kts.
If they insist call the harbour master and ask to be towed out.

It was game that gets played that all to demonstrate what is possible
I never suggested every one do it

Its becoming a lost art, boat handling under sail. Once upon a time an engine wasn't a choice a mariner had for getting to a dock (or leaving one).

I think as kankama was pointing out a kedge was used on a regular basis, take it from someone who sails a long keel vessel with a gaff rig (as most boats where pre engine ) manoeuvring is a lot different to a fin keeler. Look up Colin archer and you will see vessels getting kedged about the harbour

Yes boat handling under sail,kedging,doubling up a line to another boat post anything is all good to learn.
Teaching people that have very little experience to sail off the dock backwards because the engine isnt working is not a good idea in my opinion.

Given the prevailing attitude here, i won't share the stories of what my mate and me used to get up to on his S80.

Bit of a difference between an Etchell and an S80 then what an RYA Yachtmasters is likely to be on.

Also coming from an instructional/checking background, I don't have an issue with the exercise in Lydia's story. Sometimes it is good to put the extreme/obscure into the bag of tricks whilst under instruction/supervision or as an exercise in problem solving. As log as it is not an assessed...

Toph said..

Given the prevailing attitude here, i won't share the stories of what my mate and me used to get up to on his S80.

Bit of a difference between an Etchell and an S80 then what an RYA Yachtmasters is likely to be on.

Also coming from an instructional/checking background, I don't have an issue with the exercise in Lydia's story. Sometimes it is good to put the extreme/obscure into the bag of tricks whilst under instruction/supervision or as an exercise in problem solving. As log as it is not an assessed...

Not assessed just a problem solver for people who have the basics sorted

I used to be a sailing instructor and have been a teacher for over twenty years. I don't really get the idea behind such a question as this. For me I would rather instill the idea in a new sailor - if in doubt get the kedge/fenders/pumps/lifejackets out. That has saved my bacon more than a few times. Don't complicate things, and when things go bad, do simple things that will make your boat and your crew safe.