Denali said..

Ramona said..

Can you share anything specific to look out for when looking at engines before getting a professional surveyor involved? I'm relatively ok with engines in general, however have no expeirence with marine diesels. Was planning to look out for fluid leaks, smells/oil and loose clamps/issues with any hosing.

You're also the second person to link me the davidson, I think i'll go take a look whilst i'm on leave. However the primary use is intended to be cruising and social, then twilight racing so you hit the nail on the head RE: enclosed head. The general lack of lining and creature comforts doesn't bother me, but I think it will be lacking for the boss.

Buying a yacht is no different than buying a classic car. I personally buy what I like first and foremost. I would suggest buying on condition. Don't worry about the age or brand of engine but how it has been looked after by previous owners. I also like boats with race history. This often means they might be a bit rough around the edges but everything that needs to work will work and stuff is all in the right places. I sail solo all the time so the open head area in my boat does not upset my wife. I would not bother with a survey personally but would still buy a boat with faults that are easily rectified. I really hate seeing plastic hoses in engine bays. I would only buy a yacht with a lead keel or an encapsulated lead keel not because they have a better ballast ratio but because they require a lot less time on the slips or on the hard.
This Northshore 33 has the control lines back to the cockpit and wheel steering. I would suggest standing behind the wheel and see what evolution's that can be carried out solo or two handed. Tacking would be OK solo but reefing you will need to be standing forward in the cockpit and will require an autopilot or wind vane self steering.
I would suggest sailing on mate yachts for this season or buy a starter yacht and take your time buying a yacht. Yachts are going going to get cheaper, even in Tasmania.

julesmoto said..

Ramona said..


It's a Ken Jago built boat. He knows what he is doing. It is a foam core hull but would be solid in all the right places.

Trouble is it's now an old boat so who is to say that it has not hit a log or had a laser run into the side of it or had some dope fit an extra through hull in a new place incorrectly or indeed replace old through-hulls badly or even been careless with a jack stand. No thanks . IMHO no reason to go with a foam or balsa core hull unless racing is your sole object (not longevity) and boat is new and weight is everything.

Bad enough having to check decks for rot and correct installation of hardware by previous owners.

How many boats do you know of that have had serious hull core damage? I don't know of any in Australia.

Cores are stiffer, lighter and as far as I know, less subject to fatigue than single skin.

2bish said..
Hi Denali, good luck with the boat hunting. Regarding draft, we're moored at Kettering and we extensively cruise Channel/Bruny, Nubeena, Norfolk Bay and up to Feycinet. Our boat is 1.9 m draft and that's never hindered us in these areas. If I was looking for another boat, I wouldn't be put off by anything up to 2 m, especially now that MAST seems to have a regular dredging program in place for the approaches to the Denison canal.

Thanks for the advice. The one I'm looking at is 1.68m which is good. Do you take the canal up to Freycinet? Ever gone around the long way? If so what's that like?
Given you're local can you share any recommendations for trustworthy marine surveyors?

Going to do the initial inspection tomorrow so will respond back to the thread with pics and thoughts.

Inspection results are in.

The boat has had a lot of work done on it recently and presents in decent condition. Standing rigging, and majority of running rigging are all brand new with receipts to match. It has a near new mainsail. The genoa is in fair condition, and could do with replacing in the next few years. There is an additional main in fair condition, and a storm jib. The next major areas to improve are the interiors, which are in decent condition, but tired and dated. For starters it needs a top to bottom clean out.

The forward hatch above the vberth is damaged/bent and does not seal particularly well, this needs to be replaced.
There is a handrail on the starboard side that has pulled out in one of the middle mounting brackets, which needs to be reinstalled and resealed. Probably a good opportunity to clean them up anyway.
The wind speed anemometer was recently rewired, but appears to have come loose at the head of the mast as the wind indicator and the whole assembly was turning, and as such it was not working. Owner reported that it did work after wiring until it rotated.
At some point the decking anti-slip should be replaced, but this isn't critical.
The chain plates had no rust and were in fantastic condition.

The toilet has been replaced with a camping toilet which was pretty unimpressive, I can see that being replaced before long. The head itself needs a clean up and some storage installed, as well as a shower being reinstalled, however is serviceable for now.

Underway, there was some knocking from the prop shaft - the owner suspects it is related to the anode on the shaft now being somewhat degraded and is knocking up against the P bracket (does that sound right?) . He is replacing this regardless of whether I purchase it, the boat will be going on the slip at the owners expense next friday. I have arranged to inspect the underside at the same time, and assist him with slipping it. There are some other minor repairs to the gel coat that are being performed above the waterline at the same time.
The stop mechanism for the engine has broken, necessitating opening the engine bay to manually pull the lever each time, however this can be reinstalled reasonably easily to the cockpit. The engine started well after the fuel made it to the engine, and smoke cleared in a couple of seconds.

It has recently had the entire underside sandblasted and new epoxy applied (have the receipts), with the entire keel being refinished.
All the engine hosing has been replaced and is in good condition.

The original stove is available and working, it was removed due to owner preference.
There was no water in the bilge, even after sailing for two hours.

All the safety equipment was in order and as expected.

Did I miss anything critical, or is there anything else I should ask the owner about?

I have a really good feeling about it overall (apart from the general trepidation relating to experience and parting with a significant sum of money). The owner turns out to be known to my partners father and is a pretty trustworthy individual. He's reluctantly selling as his wife does not enjoy sailing, however he has also offered to come crew for some twilights to help us really get the hang of the boat. He seemed very genuine, and has been putting in a lot of work too the vessel, which gives me a good feeling. I have not observed any significant upcoming expenses, as he has performed them all.

julesmoto said..
I think the stop mechanism for the motor should be an electricly operated stop solenoid rather than some mechanical push pull device which I suspect may be the decompression lever intended to assist starting by a crank if the battery is flat.

That seems correct based on the operation of it. So this would be a separate item, unrelated to the decompression lever?
The engine is a Volva Penta MD 2002, so would need the push version. This looks to be the part. www.parts4engines.com/volvo-penta-md22-stop-solenoid/

The seacocks all seemed pretty sound, and opened well, i'll take another look next week when we slip it. I think i'll have to measure the hatch to price a replacement, but looking online they were $600ish, and I think the labour is within my skill level to complete.

There was not a spot of rust on the keelbolts or nuts, bilge was dry (couple of drops) and the mast and booom are in fantastic condition.I'm now on the fence regarding a survey too - I have a copy of the last survey here, performed by the surveyor I was planning to have do it anyway - dated Dec 2020 - and every item on it has been performed except foor the hatch and rail previously mentioned.

Denali said..

2bish said..
Hi Denali, good luck with the boat hunting. Regarding draft, we're moored at Kettering and we extensively cruise Channel/Bruny, Nubeena, Norfolk Bay and up to Feycinet. Our boat is 1.9 m draft and that's never hindered us in these areas. If I was looking for another boat, I wouldn't be put off by anything up to 2 m, especially now that MAST seems to have a regular dredging program in place for the approaches to the Denison canal.

Thanks for the advice. The one I'm looking at is 1.68m which is good. Do you take the canal up to Freycinet? Ever gone around the long way? If so what's that like?
Given you're local can you share any recommendations for trustworthy marine surveyors?

Going to do the initial inspection tomorrow so will respond back to the thread with pics and thoughts.

I can highly recommend Denis Planchon. Top guy, ex french Navy and lots of sailing and industry experience. He did a recent insurance survey for me and I was impressed with the level of detail he went into: boatstasmania.com.au/about/

Denali said..

2bish said..

I can highly recommend Denis Planchon. Top guy, ex french Navy and lots of sailing and industry experience. He did a recent insurance survey for me and I was impressed with the level of detail he went into: boatstasmania.com.au/about/

I'm currently reading Denis' survey conducted in Jan '21 for this vessel and all items have been carried out with the exception of the above mentioned hatch/wind isntrument and stop cable. How much can change in this short period of time, and is it worth surveying again?

I'm heading out with the owner on Wednesday for a social twilight race and will be inspecting these things that I overlooked due to the information overload

Dry out bilge with towel and inspect after race to see if any ingress under sailing.
Further inspection of engine (done some research on the model) need to check engine mounts and packing gland. Engine mounts noted by Denis as Resilient, Serviceable condition where visible.
Inspect shaft bearing - noted as having "Slight play, acceptable at this stage but should be monitored. Could be be a result of "Abnormal Vibrations"" (This could be related to the vibration underway at higher RPM?? This worries me the most out of anything). The engine alignment was checked by a mechanic in March 21, evidenced by itemised receipt.

Any further advice around the knocking issue anyone can share?

Hi Denali, the short answer is yes, anything could happen over a year. Most likely it'll just be normal wear and tear, but for peace of mind, I'd get Denis to resurvey. He'll be able to compare well with the '21 survey he did. The vibration could be the bearing, bent shaft, worn engine mounts, growth on prop, prop anode worn, prop out of balance etc. If you're serious about buying, make an offer subject to survey and get Denis in, call him now and ask his advice beforehand. Did you say the owner is slipping the boat soon? You could also get Ian Hughes at Hughes Marine (volvo expert in Kettering) to do a check on the shaft, bearings, prop and engine mounts, if there is an issue, then he could give you a ballpark cost of repairs and then see if the owner is willing to negotiate with repairs in mind.

Seems like you are going through this very thoroughly.

I compiled the below text at work (sigh) around the same time as 2bish posted, with intention to post now at home so very similar but has some good links, hopefully is of use.

Suggestions are - not intending to advise how to suck eggs and if I have missed something then ignore...........there is one in our little bay up here in west harbour Sydney (the place everyone is trying to escape out of.....) and imho they are a top yacht but of course the overall condition of specific examples for sale now will vary.

Assume you have this? Very concise manual.
avdhoeff.home.xs4all.nl/zeilen_bestanden/Volvo-Penta-Type_2001-2002-2003T_Workshop-Manual.pdf

Possibly some good content here - realise not a VP. www.cruisersforum.com/forums/f54/loud-banging-from-a-yanmar-2gm20-108322.html

Good articles you may have seen;
www.yachtingmonthly.com/sailing-skills/diagnose-and-fix-marine-diesel-engine-problems-29940
www.boatingmag.com/how-to-diagnose-and-fix-inboard-shaft-vibration/
www.passagemaker.com/technical/troubleshooting-vibration-problems

Take video including audio and include a link to it in your post?? At idle and in neutral, fwd through rev range, astern through rev range. A motion amplification system would quickly show where external (where accessible) problems in the drive train are, at associated time and cost.... www.opticalmotion.com.au/

If the anode on the shaft is "degraded" - assume you mean wasted away as inherently will occur - then it will not hit the p bracket unless it has become loose in it's securing to the shaft. If it has become loose and is hitting the p bracket then the new installed one when on the slips will certainly cure that.

If the shaft bearing "slight play" has worsened this could cause the knocking vibrations.

Do you have the alignment report from 03/21 or just receipt? Seems like this was done in the water as the survey was Dec 2020 (or Jan 21?) presumably on the slips.

As per 2bish and the above articles the issue may be caused by many factors other than alignment or shaft bearing wear;
A Damaged or eroded or fouled propeller causing imbalance. Is it a fixed blade prop or folding or feathering type?
B Prop cocked in the fit on the shaft
C P bracket bearing not lined up with shaft suitably (maybe due to p bracket damage or bend) - alignment could show this.
D Stern gland problems
E Bent or bowed shaft
F Coupling issues - each side and/or resilient elements and/or fasteners.
G Engine resilient mounts and/or fasteners
H Engine bearers
I Engine internal problems.
J Belt/s damaged, sheave/s damaged or cocked
K Other.
L You could join this and post there www.facebook.com/groups/3666372553402973

Yes it seems like the common terminology is for the cutless bearing to be the bearing in the p bracket as you say.

www.practical-sailor.com/blog/cutless-not-cutlass-bearing-care

www.cruisingworld.com/story/how-to/howcheck-shaft-bearing-hard/

The stuffing box / stern gland is at the hull junction of the shaft.

www.westmarine.com/west-advisor/Stuffing-Boxes-Shaft-Seals-and-Shaft-Bearings.html

stevedmarineconsulting.com/keeping-your-bilge-dry-with-dripless-stuffing-boxes/

Denali said..
Thanks for confirming.

Say a boat had had a number of issues, that had been rectified, are there any that would still cause concern that a buyer should steer clear of?

On a car for instance, regardless of repairs performed, I would not purchase a car that had chassis damage, as its likely to cause other issues down the line, regardless of repair state.

Personally I can only think of one. I wouldn't touch any boat that advertises a full hull peel or any soda blast that breaches the gelcoat layer.

This is particularly so with North Shores as I believe the vinylester layer was only the outer layer and I have heard a second-hand report of one that had a full hull peel and then kept getting serious osmosis problems thereafter.

It seems to me that a full hull peel is only necessary if a boat already has pretty serious osmosis and then there is the issue as to whether it has been fixed properly as the drying out time (which is only one aspect of a proper job) is extremely lengthy/expensive/difficult and heating the hull too much to speed this up introduces other problems.

Might be easier for you to list the issues which have been rectified so people can comment on the likelihood of success.

julesmoto said..

Might be easier for you to list the issues which have been rectified so people can comment on the likelihood of success.

I'll do you one better. imgur.com/a/yqrNN8P

Since last week, the owner has also refixed the hand rail, and waterproofed it.

I have receipts for the significant works - Keel sandblast and repair, as well as standing rigging and engine inspection and service.

Please let me know if you see any red flags.

Going up on the slip tomorrow morning, will take as many photos as I can and inspect the shaft bearing, which I suspect is the origin of the thumping. The owner has agreed to take this off the price.

What brand is the wind instrument ?

Sorry my real bad - my very sloppy and ambiguous text - meant comprehensive survey report. I can't comment on yacht condition without being on board. Page 3 report summary seems valid - fair interior condition, overall average condition.
The gunwale stanchion on page 7 top left - why were not the 2 original csunk bolts replaced rather than drill 2 new holes with unsuitable fasteners? Adjacent deck and under structure ok? Expect not a show stopper, might have been fixed.
The assumed port pulpit aft base page 7 top right (mooring horn cleat in photo) - must have had some sort of impact to the pulpit to cause that permanent deformation of the base. Any other collateral damage like bent pulpit or adjacent deck or under structure? Did the lower forestay and its turnbuckle and assumed flat bar ss strap bolted to the bow get a whack in this event? Any permanent deformation? If standing rigging has been renewed assume sorted if there was. A very common problem. Expect not a show stopper.
The A1/2/3 pages with striked out text is difficult to interprete but assume you have been advised what it means.
Ok good re both prop blades folded in and out to limits properly last time slipped. Yes would expect p bracket bearing play will be found. Need to check the p bracket itself also, including securing to the hull and the adjacent hull area.
As regards your text from your helming last night - assume you were not under sail at any time when you were motoring and observed these actions. The yacht will experience prop walk as per a good article here - a lot of good such articles are online;
www.sailmagazine.com/cruising/walking-the-prop
So when motoring out straight into the wind with no vibration present it is probable that the shaft had suitably seated into the (probably asymmetrically worn) p bracket bearing in a position of good support, and the whole drive train was supported and operating as intended. And the prop folding blades are both opening fully and equally. However coming back in with more helm, it is probable that the prop walk and more helm effects are combining to push the shaft into a slightly different position in the p bracket bearing, which gets it into the more clearance worn position, and the vibration increases as a result. The shaft length between the hull and the p backet bearing seems sizeable in relative terms - this is a function of the hull design shape. So this will exacerbate worn p bracket bearing issues.
Obviously I might be totally barking up the wrong tree here and missing something. When you came back in with more helm was it the same going to port as well as starboard?
To conclude I would expect that the problem is the worn p bracket bearing as you say.
Seems like this yacht has been the most micromanaged inspected for sale yacht on seabreeze in my time on the forum. Of course this is a potentially good thing for the potential buyer but it might be over the top and so a disservice for the seller. Anyway after buying and selling 13 small yachts - refurbing my 14th now and the last - I just wanted to help.

I'm late to the party, but as has been mentioned above, buy something that makes you happy. Whatever you buy is likely to need significant money spent at some point. The Northshore is more than capable for your needs, but at that price I'd want more sails, a decent interior, and an oven.

The beauty of southeast Tas is its wealth of anchorages. You will get caught out by the weather, but that's not the end of the world, there are always options.

My parents (I don't think they're on here;) only took up sailing in their 50's - and are still pretty clueless about many aspects, but 20 years later they're still going, and generally keeping out of trouble. Their range is about Freycinet to Recherche, and they still don't have an autopilot...

I think you're looking in the right size range - to me about 28-35 feet seems to be the most practical size.

Other (than Northshores, which are a fine option, you may consider are Mottle 33s, Martzcraft 35s, Jarkan 10.5s and Europa 10s, Compass 28, 29 and (Innovator) 33, Cole Traditional 30s and Eastcoast 31s, UFO 34, Farr 1020 (or 1104), Masram 920 any Young 88 ( maybe a little racey), Cavalier 28 30 and 32... as well as S&Ss etc... They all pop up pretty frequently in that price range, and are more than capable of cruising SE Tas and twilighting.

An anchor winch, self tailing halyard and sheet winches, good rigging and sails, and well maintained suitable, engine would all be priorities, and a survey essential.

EVERY boat is a compromise, so to some extent let your heart rule your head.

That Farr is an excellent buy.