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Holding headsail out with boat hook while racing

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Created by Donk107 1 month ago, 25 Jan 2019
Donk107
TAS, 2051 posts
25 Jan 2019 6:19AM
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Hi all

another racing question

When goose winged it appears that a crew member is not allowed to hold the headsail out with a boat hook but you can only use a spinnaker pole or whisker pole attached to the mast

Is this correct

Just wondering how many people do it knowingly or unknowingly and if so have you ever been protested after doing it

Regards Don

EC31
NSW, 374 posts
25 Jan 2019 7:16AM
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RRS 50.2 covers it. Only one spinnaker pole or whisker pole shall be used at a time except when gybing. When in use, it shall be attached to the foremost mast.
Our SI's used to allow it, but they took it out last year. You can do the crew member hold tho'.

shaggybaxter
QLD, 1501 posts
25 Jan 2019 7:31AM
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Hi Don,
If you wanted to sit their with a boat hook on a headsail, I'd buy you a beer and commend you for your stamina!
I have seen people do it and I wouldn't think of protesting it. I'd use a spinnaker pole though, much easier. We might use a topper for the pole on a big boat, on small ones we simply clip the free pole on without a kicker or topper.

On an asymmetrical kite, that's a bit different. The bowsprit is considered a pole, so then you definitely cannot use a reaching strut, or whisker pole, connected to the clew or sheets. I wouldn't be keen on my crew using a boathook then, as that's getting a bit cheeky in my eyes.

Same with a symmetrical, as it uses a spinnaker pole, so I wouldn't use a boathook (you could argue it wont help you anyway with the kite having a lot bigger foot)

Edit: I have been toying with a reaching strut for our bigger kites, but there is no way you could connect it to the mast, the clew is too far back. We would need an Imoca 60 setup where the pole is lashed to a hardpoint on the beam, with braces to stop it moving forwards or backwards. It's a bit of a head&^%$ to setup, and it would definitely get me tossed in a race!

Cheers!
SB

shaggybaxter
QLD, 1501 posts
25 Jan 2019 7:35AM
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It's important to note that the rules pertain to a whisker pole or reaching strut as connecting to the clew or sheet of a foresail. A friend was protested twice in Hammo this year as they used a whisker pole on the spinnaker brace. The protest was dismissed categorically, as it was not connected to the clew or sheet.

EC31
NSW, 374 posts
25 Jan 2019 8:54AM
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shaggybaxter said..
It's important to note that the rules pertain to a whisker pole or reaching strut as connecting to the clew or sheet of a foresail. A friend was protested twice in Hammo this year as they used a whisker pole on the spinnaker brace. The protest was dismissed categorically, as it was not connected to the clew or sheet.


Shaggy, was the jockey pole protest? Jockey poles for getting the brace off the lifelines have been around for a while, my boat has one and we used to use it a lot to get the brace around the fat belly (not mine, the boats'......).

shaggybaxter
QLD, 1501 posts
25 Jan 2019 8:13AM
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EC31 said..


shaggybaxter said..
It's important to note that the rules pertain to a whisker pole or reaching strut as connecting to the clew or sheet of a foresail. A friend was protested twice in Hammo this year as they used a whisker pole on the spinnaker brace. The protest was dismissed categorically, as it was not connected to the clew or sheet.




Shaggy, was the jockey pole protest? Jockey poles for getting the brace off the lifelines have been around for a while, my boat has one and we used to use it a lot to get the brace around the fat belly (not mine, the boats'......).



G'day EC,
You nailed it, it wasn't a performance thing, just to stop the brace bending the stanchion/lifelines.

dralyagmas
SA, 333 posts
25 Jan 2019 9:05AM
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If it aggrieves you then I would suggest a quiet word to them in friendly manner informing them that it is illegal and how to rectify.

No need for any protesting unless this is knowingly and their performance is actually benefiting from it. i would suggest that a proper use of a spinnaker or whisker pole to the mast will be faster anyway.

Donk107
TAS, 2051 posts
25 Jan 2019 10:33AM
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The reason I pose this question is that for the 5 years I have been sailing here on Jeff's boat we and other boats have been doing it in the twilights and nothing has been said

I started twilighting mine about a month ago and when it is light I have been boat hooking the large no 1 head sail out goose winged and we have been doing all right but last night on of the other sailors mentioned it was against the rules which I didn't know

Sometomes with the small headsails I use the spinnaker pole but with the big bugger the pole is a bit short

No real dramas if I have to get a longer whisker pole and hook it on the mast ring but I know that some of the other boats don't have mast rings whereas everyone has a boat hook so it seems to me that it is easier just to ignore the rule if everyone in the fleet is happy to do so

This is the headsail I have been holding out

Regards Don



shaggybaxter
QLD, 1501 posts
25 Jan 2019 9:43AM
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Donk107 said..
The reason I pose this question is that for the 5 years I have been sailing here on Jeff's boat we and other boats have been doing it in the twilights and nothing has been said

I started twilighting mine about a month ago and when it is light I have been boat hooking the large no 1 head sail out goose winged and we have been doing all right but last night on of the other sailors mentioned it was against the rules which I didn't know

Sometomes with the small headsails I use the spinnaker pole but with the big bugger the pole is a bit short

No real dramas if I have to get a longer whisker pole and hook it on the mast ring but I know that some of the other boats don't have mast rings whereas everyone has a boat hook so it seems to me that it is easier just to ignore the rule if everyone in the fleet is happy to do so

This is the headsail I have been holding out

Regards Don




Bloody hell Don, extend it a few more inches and you could call it a Code 0! Out of interest, do you find it backwinds your main much?

Donk107
TAS, 2051 posts
25 Jan 2019 11:39AM
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shaggybaxter said..



Donk107 said..
The reason I pose this question is that for the 5 years I have been sailing here on Jeff's boat we and other boats have been doing it in the twilights and nothing has been said

I started twilighting mine about a month ago and when it is light I have been boat hooking the large no 1 head sail out goose winged and we have been doing all right but last night on of the other sailors mentioned it was against the rules which I didn't know

Sometomes with the small headsails I use the spinnaker pole but with the big bugger the pole is a bit short

No real dramas if I have to get a longer whisker pole and hook it on the mast ring but I know that some of the other boats don't have mast rings whereas everyone has a boat hook so it seems to me that it is easier just to ignore the rule if everyone in the fleet is happy to do so

This is the headsail I have been holding out

Regards Don






Bloody hell Don, extend it a few more inches and you could call it a Code 0! Out of interest, do you find it backwinds your main much?




Hi Shaggy

In the photo it looks like it is but in the last four twilights we have raced mine in (we have actually won the last 3 of those as the wind has died off for the faster boats that start later ) we haven't had a beat where is has been blowing hard

Regards Don

Gravy7
NSW, 180 posts
25 Jan 2019 1:03PM
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Select to expand quote
Donk107 said..
I started twilighting mine about a month ago and when it is light I have been boat hooking the large no 1 head sail out goose winged and we have been doing all right but last night on of the other sailors mentioned it was against the rules which I didn't know

Sometomes with the small headsails I use the spinnaker pole but with the big bugger the pole is a bit short

No real dramas if I have to get a longer whisker pole and hook it on the mast ring but I know that some of the other boats don't have mast rings whereas everyone has a boat hook so it seems to me that it is easier just to ignore the rule if everyone in the fleet is happy to do so




Hi Don.
As per EC31's reply, RRS 50.2 covers the matter and if there is only one pole (whisker pole, spinnaker pole or boathook) you are OK.

I don't think that 50.2 says that any pole must be attached to the mast. It just says that there is a limit of one. However, there may be an argument that 50.3 (a) and (c) say that a boathook not attached to the mast is not allowed:

50.2 Spinnaker Poles; Whisker Poles
Only one spinnaker pole or whisker pole shall be used at a time except when gybing. When in use, it shall be attached to the foremost mast.
50.3 Use of Outriggers
(a) No sail shall be sheeted over or through an outrigger, except as permitted in rule 50.3(b) or 50.3(c). An outrigger is any fitting or other
device so placed that it could exert outward pressure on a sheet or sail at a point from which, with the boat upright, a vertical line would
fall outside the hull or deck. For the purpose of this rule, bulwarks, rails and rubbing strakes are not part of the hull or deck and the following are not outriggers: a bowsprit used to secure the tack of a sail, a bumkin used to sheet the boom of a sail, or a boom of a boomed headsail that requires no adjustment when tacking.
(b) Any sail may be sheeted to or led above a boom that is regularly used for a sail and is permanently attached to the mast from which the head of the sail is set.
(c) A headsail may be sheeted or attached at its clew to a spinnaker pole or whisker pole, provided that a spinnaker is not set.

If someone wants to cite a 'rule', I would politely ask them the reference number from the Racing Rules of Sailing, Sailing Instructions or whatever.

A well deployed whisker pole can be very effective and it's well worthwhile knocking one up which is the same as the length of the foot of your jib. We made one from two lengths of old Laser mast joined in the middle with an internal sleeve cut from an old Windsurfer mast.

If there is no spinnaker ring on the mast, as there is always compression on the whisker pole (if it is long enough), you can try a yoke end cut from a blade and curved to match the side profile of the mast.

Donk107
TAS, 2051 posts
25 Jan 2019 2:14PM
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Hi all

Thanks for the feedback so far

If I made a whisker pole is there any rule that determines how long it can be

Regards Don

Gravy7
NSW, 180 posts
25 Jan 2019 2:26PM
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I don't think so. Not unless there are class rules that apply such as for a Heron dinghy etc.

The length of the foot of the jib is a good start or even a metre or so longer as you want the jib to be close to square to the centreline when poled all the way out.

I keep our pole inside the boom bag so it doesn't get stolen. So we limited the length of our whisker pole to the length of the boom. It looks like yours should be quite a bit longer though. And maybe there are fewer waterfront thieves in Tasmania!

FreeRadical
WA, 813 posts
25 Jan 2019 11:26AM
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Jockey poles are not categorised as outriggers as they attach to a guy (brace), not a sheet or a sail. Thus they are allowed.

In the Volvo Ocean Race, the sailing instructions deleted 50.3 and allowed the use of outriggers.

The best reference for interpreting rules is the case book, download it here:

www.sailing.org/documents/caseandcall/case-book.php

Case 97 talks about jockey poles.

If you are holding out a sheet or sail, you must be cautious of Rule 49.2

See case 36 and 83.

Agreeing to ignore rules is not a wise option. Rules are there for safety as well. Your club should amend the sailing instructions should it want to allow outriggers and in that case, it would only be a very brave committee that would permit hand held outrigger devices.

Gravy7
NSW, 180 posts
25 Jan 2019 2:54PM
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An interesting reference, FreeRadical. But back to the original question which was "Holding the headsail out with a boathook while racing", I don't see much help from a quick read except the following from Case 4:



RRS Rule 49 says:

49 CREW POSITION; LIFELINES
49.1 Competitors shall use no device designed to position their bodies outboard, other than hiking straps and stiffeners worn under the thighs.
49.2 When lifelines are required by the class rules or any other rule, competitors shall not position any part of their torsos outside them,
except briefly to perform a necessary task. On boats equipped with upper and lower lifelines, a competitor sitting on the deck facing outboard with his waist inside the lower lifeline may have the upper part of his body outside the upper lifeline. Unless a class rule or any other rule specifies a maximum deflection, lifelines shall be taut. If the class rules do not specify the material or minimum diameter of lifelines, they
shall comply with the corresponding specifications in the World Sailing Offshore Special Regulations.

And that is clarified in Case 36 which has some useful diagrams of various body positions if you are interested.

So, the short answer is that you can hold a jib outboard as long as you keep your upper body inside the life lines and you probably can't use a boathook as an extension of your arm as it is most likely considered a 'fitting or device' and is not a 'whisker pole' unless it is attached to the mast.

stray
SA, 86 posts
25 Jan 2019 2:32PM
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Edit: I have been toying with a reaching strut for our bigger kites, but there is no way you could connect it to the mast, the clew is too far back. We would need an Imoca 60 setup where the pole is lashed to a hardpoint on the beam, with braces to stop it moving forwards or backwards. It's a bit of a head&^%$ to setup, and it would definitely get me tossed in a race!

Cheers!
SB


Could you rig a Barber hauler/ tweaker or whatever through a block on the main boom?

shaggybaxter
QLD, 1501 posts
25 Jan 2019 2:38PM
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stray said..



Edit: I have been toying with a reaching strut for our bigger kites, but there is no way you could connect it to the mast, the clew is too far back. We would need an Imoca 60 setup where the pole is lashed to a hardpoint on the beam, with braces to stop it moving forwards or backwards. It's a bit of a head&^%$ to setup, and it would definitely get me tossed in a race!

Cheers!
SB



Could you rig a Barber hauler/ tweaker or whatever through a block on the main boom?


G'day Stray,
I think I know what you mean, but I don't think you'd have enough downforce on the clew without continuing the barber hauler to a deck fitting.
Which would make it essentially a oversized boom vang, which wouldn't work.
Good lateral approach though!

Bristolfashion
VIC, 446 posts
25 Jan 2019 5:08PM
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If you hold the boathook AND hold onto the mast, is the pole attached to the mast and thus conforming to the rules?

I do this manoeuvre sometimes when bored in light air - it does work well.

However, the whisker pole with a length of "J" is very effective. We only need a foreguy and uphaul on our boat.

Cheers

Bristol

P.s.Don, we've made it to the Tamar - Low Head Pilot Station pontoon is just the coolest arrival point!

Donk107
TAS, 2051 posts
26 Jan 2019 12:21AM
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Hi Bristol

Good to see that you made it up the top

You are defiantly at the best end of tassie because it is a bit ordinary here at the moment

Regards Don

Donk107
TAS, 2051 posts
26 Jan 2019 8:10AM
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FreeRadical said..
Jockey poles are not categorised as outriggers as they attach to a guy (brace), not a sheet or a sail. Thus they are allowed.

In the Volvo Ocean Race, the sailing instructions deleted 50.3 and allowed the use of outriggers.

The best reference for interpreting rules is the case book, download it here:

www.sailing.org/documents/caseandcall/case-book.php

Case 97 talks about jockey poles.

If you are holding out a sheet or sail, you must be cautious of Rule 49.2

See case 36 and 83.

Agreeing to ignore rules is not a wise option. Rules are there for safety as well. Your club should amend the sailing instructions should it want to allow outriggers and in that case, it would only be a very brave committee that would permit hand held outrigger devices.


Hi Freeradical

You have raised a good point about the safety aspect of this and that is something I did not think of

Regards Don

sirgallivant
NSW, 1394 posts
27 Jan 2019 9:56PM
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Jethrow
NSW, 727 posts
27 Jan 2019 10:01PM
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Yep, a photo of an illegal fitting on pretty much any other boat that a Volvo 65... ;)

morningsun
123 posts
28 Jan 2019 7:21AM
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Hi Gravy 7, further to your reply to Don, it would appear that you did not read R.50.2 fully.


"Hi Don.
As per EC31's reply, RRS 50.2 covers the matter and if there is only one pole (whisker pole, spinnaker pole or boathook) you are OK.

I don't think that 50.2 says that any pole must be attached to the mast. It just says that there is a limit of one. However, there may be an argument that 50.3 (a) and (c) say that a boathook not attached to the mast is not allowed:

50.2 Spinnaker Poles; Whisker Poles
Only one spinnaker pole or whisker pole shall be used at a time except when gybing. When in use, it shall be attached to the foremost mast."



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"Holding headsail out with boat hook while racing" started by Donk107