Ketch versus Sloop or Cutter

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McNaughtical
McNaughtical
NSW
908 posts
NSW, 908 posts
16 Jun 2017 4:55pm
Looking for opinions on the pros and cons of a ketch versus a sloop or a cutter. Have been told a Ketch is too slow, more like a motor sailor, but then a ketch is easier single handed if it is 40 ' or more as the sails are smaller. I've never been sailing on a ketch so have no idea what the differences are.
Trek
Trek
NSW
1213 posts
NSW, 1213 posts
16 Jun 2017 5:09pm
I can answer a little about the sloop vs cutter. I had a 39ft cutter at one time and many sloops.

Advantage of the cutter over sloop that I found was mainly more flexibility in what sails you could rig for different wind. ie. You've got 3 sails and the different sizes of each. And it looked great under full sail. Disadvantage - more work tacking, hoisting and furling! I prefer the sloop :-)

Back when I had a Mottle 33 a friend had a ketch with slightly less water line length. He was always slightly faster than us Very annoying until he ran aground one day on a mud bar and we missed it and sailed past
McNaughtical
McNaughtical
NSW
908 posts
NSW, 908 posts
16 Jun 2017 5:19pm
Thanks Trek.
oldboyracer
oldboyracer
NSW
292 posts
NSW, 292 posts
16 Jun 2017 7:15pm
With my ketch I only use the mainsail when other people are onboard, I find it easier with the mizzen just behind me. As for speed I will let you know how I go against my mates cav 32 as we will be cruising together over the next 5 months. Hopefully leaving next week
McNaughtical
McNaughtical
NSW
908 posts
NSW, 908 posts
16 Jun 2017 7:32pm
How big is your Ketch, Old Boy, and can you single hand her ok?
cavalier32
cavalier32
QLD
19 posts
QLD, 19 posts
16 Jun 2017 8:05pm
I have sailed a cutter rig single handed overseas for 10 years and have been through all weather conditions and found it to be easily handled solo.
I now have a Cavalier 32 sloop and find it to be great but a little, if I was going OS again I would go cutter rig.
As far as speed goes between a ketch and sloop I'll have to let you know after the trip with oldboyracer
Bushdog
Bushdog
SA
313 posts
SA, 313 posts
16 Jun 2017 9:32pm
I had a ketch rigged Manitou 32. The ketch rig was regarded as slower than the same hull sloop rigged. Obviously a ketch has more shrouds n stays. Much more expensive when it comes to re-rigging costs, and a lot more wirework around the cockpit can impact on moving about boat. You either have extra stays running forward or a triatic stay from top of one mast to top of the other. I read triatics can 'pump' causing stress to both masts.

When sails were cotton and ropes hemp i can I can see why the desire to have more smaller sails was an issue, but now with sail slugs n slides, self tailing winches, lighter sails that don't stray sodden for ages etc I don't think it's as much of a problem. Sure, you have more options to mess around with balancing your boat, but if sailing solo much of the time, keeping it sloop simple with two sails and two sheets, headsail furler, lazy jacks and 3-4 main reefing points is the way to go for me.
twodogs1969
twodogs1969
NSW
1000 posts
NSW, 1000 posts
17 Jun 2017 12:16am
oldboyracer said..
With my ketch I only use the mainsail when other people are onboard, I find it easier with the mizzen just behind me. As for speed I will let you know how I go against my mates cav 32 as we will be cruising together over the next 5 months. Hopefully leaving next week


Something is seriously wrong with the cav if it's not faster than a manitu.
oldboyracer
oldboyracer
NSW
292 posts
NSW, 292 posts
17 Jun 2017 9:10am
More or less the same waterline length, so really only hull shape to decide the speed. Reality wise it doesn't matter I might have to have an extra cuppa and a biscuit to get to the same place and by then Gary will have cooked dinner for the loser and he wonders why I am always slower. For me I like the ketch rig , nothing from the mast comes back to the cockpit so it's not Very cluttered with ropes in the cockpit. each to there own
Toph
Toph
WA
1886 posts
WA, 1886 posts
17 Jun 2017 8:56am
We have been cruising in company for the last two weeks with an awsome couple on beautiful Shannon 43 ketch. They very very rarely use the main. They tend to use the genny or yanky with the mizzin or the spinnaker only. Since meeting them we have largely left the sails in their bags and used the spin only too. Right now the wind though is even too light for that
twodogs1969
twodogs1969
NSW
1000 posts
NSW, 1000 posts
17 Jun 2017 3:43pm
twodogs1969 said..

oldboyracer said..
With my ketch I only use the mainsail when other people are onboard, I find it easier with the mizzen just behind me. As for speed I will let you know how I go against my mates cav 32 as we will be cruising together over the next 5 months. Hopefully leaving next week



Something is seriously wrong with the cav if it's not faster than a manitu.


Nothing wrong with a ketch remember Kioloa was a ketch and held the s2h record for a very long time.
The cav was designed as a racer while the manatu was a cruiser.
Saw you on the slips a couple of weeks ago. You still on the mooring near me or are you back in Gwaluly bay didn't look today .
oldboyracer
oldboyracer
NSW
292 posts
NSW, 292 posts
17 Jun 2017 6:34pm
Back in gwaluly, will fit new rigging to the mizzen Monday.then I'm done haven't looked at weather yet but hoping to leave Thursday. Having a farewell drink onboard Sunday. Little do they know I still have paint and paintbrushes there.
Yara
Yara
NSW
1322 posts
NSW, 1322 posts
17 Jun 2017 9:53pm
Cutter rig is the latest fashion. Allows furling headsails and the ability to reduce sail area efficiently without having to work on foredeck. Another advantage is that the reduced area is further aft, thus keeping the sail balance and trim when coupled with a reefed main.
Ketch also provides better sail balance possibilities than a sloop, but adds other complications as described earlier. Many ketch owners tend not to bother with the mizzen when day sailing. Conversely ketch rig is popular with passage makers.
cisco
cisco
QLD
12365 posts
QLD, 12365 posts
17 Jun 2017 11:58pm
I believe ketch, cutter and yawl rigs are very appropriate for medium to heavy displacement yachts say 40 foot and over providing they are correctly designed.

I favour having the head sail and stay sail on roller furlers with those types of yacht for the flexibility they give.
jbear
jbear
NSW
115 posts
NSW, 115 posts
18 Jun 2017 2:34pm
My Swanson 38 is cutter rigged . Yankee head sail with either a club stay sail on a self tacking track or a larger stay sail on a track leading back to the cockpit . The Yankee is on a furler and the stay sails are hank. The advantage of this rig, is combinations for wind conditions etc and the extra sail slot for pointing which helps with a full keel. Regarding only one furler on a cruising yacht was , if something went wrong with the furler you still had a head sail to play with ? That was Swanson's and L R Mitchell's reason also ?

cheers JB
McNaughtical
McNaughtical
NSW
908 posts
NSW, 908 posts
18 Jun 2017 3:19pm
So what about a cutter rigged ketch?
Agent nods
Agent nods
622 posts
622 posts
18 Jun 2017 4:08pm
McNaughtical said..
So what about a cutter rigged ketch?




Well that's what I bought a few months ago, as a long term cruising option.

Generally cruising without time considerations, you won't be heading into the wind very often. (and a 105 hp engine points higher!). So the cutter ketch design gives a lot of sail options.

Have not spent much time on it yet, so I do not have speed details. But on a longer passage with the amount of sail area available I don't expect it to be the slowest around.
woko
woko
NSW
1802 posts
NSW, 1802 posts
19 Jun 2017 12:21am
I like the ketch rigg ( because that's what I've got ) I can single hand her ok, but it's more fun with a friend. As for speed, well there's a reason they don't race sprays ! We have sometimes seen 7kts but more often 4 or 5kts that's what you get with a fat heavy boat. Double headsails anytime I get a chance, still got my eye out for an big skiff spinnaker to use as a mizzen staysail
McNaughtical
McNaughtical
NSW
908 posts
NSW, 908 posts
19 Jun 2017 5:45am
Thanks for all the great answers guys. Lots of food for thought here.
Craig66
Craig66
NSW
2466 posts
NSW, 2466 posts
19 Jun 2017 7:14am
I found this a good read as I had little idea on the topic

www.jordanyachts.com/3745
Yara
Yara
NSW
1322 posts
NSW, 1322 posts
19 Jun 2017 2:16pm
Cutter rig ketch- here is a glorious one: www.offcenterharbor.com/sa-1706-saona-thanks/
Chris 249
Chris 249
NSW
3585 posts
NSW, 3585 posts
20 Jun 2017 7:46am
I must admit, the only time I did a passage (880 miles or so) on a ketch I was underwhelmed. What really struck me was the difficulty of the much-touted dropping the main. If you drop a jib it sits on the deck and is easy to secure. If you drop a main you have to furl the main onto a stick several feet above the deck. Obviously lazyjacks would make a difference but they also take away much of the ketch's supposed advantage.

The extra mast is expensive, so while ketches can be faster on reaches it's just because they can hang up more expensive sails. And on a beat, the mizzen is normally just drag, which is why many racing ketches furled the mizzen almost all the time upwind.

I don't really understand the idea that you can use the ketch rig to balance the boat. What boat isn't balanced when sailed appropriately or at cruising pace?
Yara
Yara
NSW
1322 posts
NSW, 1322 posts
20 Jun 2017 10:39am
I don't really understand the idea that you can use the ketch rig to balance the boat.
It is all about maintaining the centre of effort of the sails at the same point over the centre of effort of the hull+keel, as you reduce sail area. In a sloop, a reefed main and a smaller jib together move the centre of effort of the sails forward. The ketch has permutations of sail plans which make it easier to reduce sail and still keep the centre of effort in the same place.

why many racing ketches furled the mizzen almost all the time upwind.
Most hulls tend to want to luff up as the boat heels. Boats heel more when sailing upwind. Moving the centre of effort of the sails forward, reduces this effect. Furling the mizzen moves the centre of effort of the sails forward. Balancing the boat!
Chris 249
Chris 249
NSW
3585 posts
NSW, 3585 posts
20 Jun 2017 11:29am
I may have expressed that wrongly. I'm aware of the geometry and other issues involved. What I meant was that most boats, when trimmed correctly, do not develop excess weather helm when sailing at fast cruising speed, even if they are sloops. The split rig can therefore be seen as the answer to a question that should not be asked.

As you say, most boats want to luff up when they heel, and on a sloop the CoE moves forward as you reef. Normally, these two things counteract each other to keep the boat in balance with just a little bit of tweaking, and you'd normally do that tweaking to sail well anyway. Okay, many people oversheet the main in strong winds - but that's a technique issue and not a design issue that is best solved by sticking an extra expensive stick on.

Even in something as simple as a Laser, if you are suffering excessive weather helm then the problem is the way you're sailing it, and even on the simplest rig it's normally fairly easy to cure with appropriate sail trim. Chucking on an extra mast to do what you could do by adjusting the vang and mainsheet seems to be a bit excessive.

Of course, the extra downwind sail of a ketch is appreciate by many, as is the opportunity to play with more sails and to hang things like radar sets. Some people love them and that's great.
Yara
Yara
NSW
1322 posts
NSW, 1322 posts
20 Jun 2017 12:56pm
As you say, most boats want to luff up when they heel, and on a sloop the CoE moves forward as you reef. Normally, these two things counteract each other to keep the boat in balance with just a little bit of tweaking,

If you are a cruiser, as opposed to a racer, as the wind gets up you want to reduce sail area and also not increase your angle of heel. Then your sail balance counts. Plenty of references to back up this point. This is a good one, and free book!
www.google.com.au/url?sa=t&rct=j&q=&esrc=s&source=web&cd=1&cad=rja&uact=8&ved=0ahUKEwi6hPPQtcvUAhWEyLwKHSvLAYIQFggmMAA&url=http%3A%2F%2Fsetsail.com%2Fsts.pdf&usg=AFQjCNHe5rstDxIhDqVTtUoytX2N1HWwog
Chris 249
Chris 249
NSW
3585 posts
NSW, 3585 posts
21 Jun 2017 8:15am
I did't say you didn't want to reduce sail area and keep the angle of heel low. The point is that if you do that in the most effective way then most good sloops will stay in balance anyway. Since most good and well-sailed sloops don't get out of balance, the claimed "superior balancing ability" of a ketch seems redundant.

The Dashew book is interesting; thanks. I was within sight of their more experienced friends when the friends met the worst seas in their 200,000 miles of sailing. We were on a fractional sloop which remained balanced even when under storm trysail only.

Those friends of the Dashews, by the way, respect the Dashews but don't agree with their thinking on boats. It's one of those things where reasonable and experienced people can all have valid and differing opinions based on their own preferences, just as I prefer not to have a ketch since I don't need assistance with balancing the boat.
Kankama
Kankama
NSW
826 posts
NSW, 826 posts
22 Jun 2017 7:03pm
I will put my two cents in for a slutter, or two headed sloop.

Our cat is a 7/8 rig -14.1 metres tall. It has a 110 percent genoa - hounds at 12.3 m - and an inner forestay hounds at 8.2m.

When the wind pipes right up we completely furl the genoa - I have never reefed it. We reef the main and then put the storm jib up on the inner forestay. It would be nice of it was a little bigger but it has a small foot length so we still tack well.

With the reefed main pulling the CE forward, the last thing you want is a baggy reefed genoa pulling the CE forward too. So furl the genoa and get your flat, blade staysail doing its thing. We feel pretty bulletproof with this rig.

Interestingly other modern cats are doing the same with removable furlers. They use the screecher furler to raise the staysail when needed. Some Dux lowers are needed when you winch the thing up tight but it allows you to have a sloop when needed and you hoist the furled staysail when it blows up. Best of both worlds.

I like performance a little too much to be doing ketches. Love looking at nice ones like Rosinantes and H 36s. There are lots of absolute shockers though.

cheers

Phil
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