Hi Toph
Re Lithium batteries
There are lots of guys with opinions on Youtube.
One guy that I take seriously is Kevin Bothby.
He is a full time live aboard with a circumnavigation in the engineless Ruth Avery. under his belt.
5 years ago he switched to Lithium batteries. and he has had no problems since then.


Re your question "Has Lithium just come down to brand name or is there still a bog difference in the cells?"
My answer, We used to say you get what you pay for.
Now with rebranding that is not so set in stone.
Distributors buy in bulk and then rebrand, so it has become really difficult to discern between expensive = the best and expensive = a rebrand.
Made in China or assembled in the U.S?
Assembled in the U. S. (or any other country) could just mean slipped into the shipping cardboard box.
Check Kevin's take. I might help you decide.

gary

IMHO even LiFePO4 barreries can burn but are enormously safer than other chemistries. Thermal run away much less likely. Since we cant see inside a big battery we have to assume its unknown BMS and cell quality unless certified. So take precautions. Put them in a metal vented box so if they fail the fire is less likely to sink the boat. Like on aircraft that use them. And monitor their temperature. I dont have mine in a box but both batteries have temperature sensors glued on top to trigger an alarm if they get hot and isolation relays to disconnect them if that happens.Maybe Im paranoid but fires on boats are scary.

There actually is a USA standard for installation of lithium batteries on boats ABYC E-13. The American Boat and Yacht Council’s industry-standard for the safe installation, operation, and maintenance of lithium-ion battery systems on recreational boats. It requires marine-certified batteries that meet IEC62619 (ie. they should come with a certificate of safety), proper ventilation, robust Battery Management Systems (BMS that actually work and are bullet proof), and secure restraints. This is an excellent guide. In Australia there is AS/NZS 3004.2:2014 which are government mandated standards for installation of lithium batteries on recreational vessels.

I actually contacted my insurance carrier and was told that they had no problem with lithium provided that it was lifePo4, met the relevant standard and the installation was inspected for compliance with the relevant installation standards.

ActionSportsWA said..
Hi UB,

lithium batteries aren’t all created equal. Check out Will Prowse on YT. He pulls down most brands and investigates the inner workings.

DM

Yeah, have watched a number of his video's on panels, controllers and batteries and noted that he returned to a brand that he was impressed with only to find that a later offering of theirs bore little resemblance to the original test example.


All in all a very informative individual. 👍

southace said..


I have wasted so much money on agms over the past 3 cruising yachts I have owned. Simply they don't like loads or being used below 12.5 volts. I fitted 3 iTechworld 160 pros 6 months ago and am so happy with the performances. I treat them like AGMs nothing added other than I can use the coffee machine and toaster without having to wake up the neighbours with the genset. I have a Victron dc/dc 40amp charger , Victron 70amp charger , and the 20amp solar when the suns out all with recommended fuses. In the app I can see the temperature on each battery, set alarms and see each individual cell voltage. I can also turn each battery off and on separately. Tonight I have turned 2 battery's Off and just running the fridges and diesel heat on the one battery just to see how quickly the one battery will charge from the overnight discarge. Use the recommended wire sizes and correct fuses and get a qualified sparky to check your work. That's what my insurance company suggested to me. I will never have a agm as house battery on my yachts again in my lifetime.

Lithium certainly seems the way to go now I am pretty keen to move away from AGMs.

Having done a little research since some of the comments above it doesn't look like the Australian standard is too arduous to meet and the main issue is with the internal BMS with AS/NZS 3004 requiring external BMS and an audio and visual alarm. Ive since watched several videos by Will Prowse (posted above by ActionSportsWA) and if he is indeed that knowledgeable in the subject then some of those battles - even the cheaper ones have in-built BMS's that most likely meet the AS/NZS 3004 except for the fact that they are not externally fitted..

So if to stay compliant even if it's just for insurance purposes, you'll have to fit an external BMS and alarm system. No big deal and not all that expensive in the big scheme of boat ownership, but if the Salty Captain batteries I linked to above use Prismatic cells and Victron (a well known and probably the market leader) uses the same cells, how is there a $1000 dollar difference for the same amp/h battery? BMS and Bluetooth connectivity I see being part of the difference, but as I noted you'd have to fit an external BMS anyway, and build quality. Both those seem to be what Will Prowse gets the most concerned about in his videos. Rarely does he mention the cell types or quality. Even some of the more expensive batteries had some cons which is what I think some of the posters above were trying to point out.

I am not trying to find the cheapest option here and I am not interested in a battery from Temu or Ali Express. But surely an Australian business selling within Australia must only be selling batteries that meet Australian standards right 🤔🤔🤔

Or am I missing something?

I went with Aussie Batteries (sunshine coast factory) which are assembled in Australia so meet the Aus Standards. They use prismatic cells rather than pouch or tiny cylindrical cells so there is minimal cables interconnecting the cells. It is important to look at the inbuilt battery managementsystem (BMS) specifications to ensure it is fit for your purpose.
Installation is another matter.

Safety is all down to the BMS which is utilised and most times you have no way of knowing and even the best can fail. I think a fire with lithium Iron phosphate is extremely unlikely but of course always possible. I can't see what a steel box would do because it will get hot real fast and conduct that heat perfectly to the fiberglass, timber or whatever else it is sitting on. I just went with an extreemly compact 340



amp hour job from AliExpress which has been great but I installed with a temperature sensor and alarm taped to it and a smoke alarm directly above. Its the size of a regular battery so this business of 200 amp hour or above batteries coming in gigantic cases is total BS and its just foam packing. It's Bluetooth enabled so you can see everything about it including internal resistance and the voltage of the individual cells plus you can instruct it to top balance whenever you like .

Wouldn't dream of installing AGM or deep cycle these days. I don't really like sleeping in the bunk directly above however since quick exit path is a bit restricted.

Sorry to jump in.

Hmmm these are lithium batteries
www.smh.com.au/national/nsw/why-do-sydney-s-trams-keep-catching-fire-20260713-p60eyt.html

Over to you Jules......

Magpiemike said..
Jules,
what would be your plan if the temperature alarm or the smoke detector started going off?
Mike

That's rather like saying what is the plan if lightning strikes your house.
To answer the question however I wouldn't be trying to put it out that's for sure. I would be getting the hell off the boat after putting in a mayday if I could do so without inhaling smoke.
In my opinion and in my experience metho, kero or gas stoves on a boat are far far more dangerous.

The obvious point about the SMH article is even with the best efforts of teams of engineers the batteries still seem imperfectly controllable. The BMS software is blamed in one case allowing the batteries to over charge. What??!! Obviously untested. So that's what we are relying on. Untested BMS unless there Is a certificate. In my medical work software is not allowed to control critical devices.

Trek, just to clarify for my sake, are you pro lithium only provided it has the right certification, or would you not go the lithium route again??