Has anybody taken a GPS out on their Cherub or 29er? I was just looking at the 14 site and it seems the highest recording is around the mid twenties (knots) I dont think Cherubs would be much slower downhill in a decent breeze. I've seen this first hand. I think 29ers would struggle to get close. 420's I dont think I even need to mention.
It's funny that doing 20 knots on a sailboard is a complete piece of piss, But if you're doing a bit less than that in a 14 or similar boat it seems pretty much on the edge of coming unstuck.

About a year ago a NSW cherub took out a GPS and recorded bursts of speed up to 25knots from memory. I cant find the article but it would have been 25+ knots of wind.

Bethwaite claims a lot of stuff, Including inventing the assymetrical spinnaker ,which by the way has been around in various forms since the early 1900s (didnt know he was that old) For more information just read any of the articles he or his old man have written for Australian Sailing about how good he is.

no but you see because we have grooves in our foils, and alloy masts, we have a top speed, as cherubs dont, they dont have a top speed, its just the limit of the sailors.

We can work out the 29ers top speed by this


What is a skiff you may say, well we seem to be able to have brought that all down to two numbers, the first is 2.6, and the other .54. (bit like Hitchers Guide to the Galaxy and 42) We loosely call this un-sticking.

We use the number 2.6 in the upwind mode, what it relates to is sail carrying power to total weight.

Downwind, .54 appears to be the minium ratio required to un-stick.

It gets complicated because you have to take into account automatic vs adjustable rigs, and you need enough sail area to break it out. Why do we think that, because we have analysed many classes that exhibit this un-sticking and classes that we though should but did not. The most surprising was putting a spinnaker on a Tasar, we all though this would be a no brainer, but it did not work either up wind or down, but then if we throw a extra crew person it un-sticks upwind but glues down wind.

Cut a long story short, 2.6 and .54 appear to be triggers, after that point the boat unsticks and exhibits full skiff ability.

What that triggers is, in the upwind sense, planning upwind. Now a lot of boats can plane upwind, what happens at 2.6 is that the ability to plane up wind becomes a real tactical issue, whether to plane or not plane it adds a whole different tactical and strategic initiatives, because you occasional HAVE to do it to win a race and occasionally WONT do it to win that race and you may have to on not in the same race and sometimes on the same leg.

Skiffs or boats at or above the trigger (2.6) have a significant jump in height or speed or both with a small increase in wind speed, so where to sail, not only for lifts and knocks but for pressure adds a whole new dimension.

The advantage of a extras increase in 1/2 a knot 100m in front may out weight the burning desire to tack onto a lift.

The first thing is to be able to identify the increase in wind speed, and also the shift in the breeze, the second is to weight up which option to take.

No wonder good skiffs sailors tend to be very lateral thinkers.

Without wish to harp, we in fact could have made the 29er a Blasting machine, but brought it down to this 2.6 trigger so that it was not like a Corinthian machine in which you always point, or solely a skiff and only always go blasting! By targeting close to the trigger it opens up additional options and exercises/trains/teaches the brain a more complex but exciting and stimulating game of chess than would otherwise be possible.

But in doing that, which we did mainly by increasing hull weight, (which means the hulls are bloody tough) and sticking to one trapeze, we maintained the automatic rig so the kids can still go blasting and enjoy 20-25knts without getting overly terrified.



Cherubs dont have 2.6 and .54 because of the height of rig, legnth of boat and carbon masts.

cherubs come unstuck downwind alot easier than 29er's hence the boat legnth and mast material.
but upwind the mast material works against them making them point lower and not having this 2.6 upwind to get unstuck.

quote:

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Originally posted by illusion

i think the main reason why the cherub planes easy'er dwnwind is because they have more bouyancy makink them float higher in the water and making it easyer for the boat to get out of the water

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No this is not the reason. The reason is that they have a stiff mast, if you watch a 29er downwind every wave it hits the mast bends. This stops the boat "bouncing".

If you watch a cherub downwind their mast still bends when they hit waves, but it bends a very minimal distance, so to stop everything from just falling to bits the boat "bounces" out of the water.

I dont hate 29ers I'm just saying that Cherubs are better. And I dont like Julian Bethwaite because he seems to want credit for the way that skiff sailing is today. Sure he's come up with some good stuff over the years,but all his articles about how he changed the skiff sailing world for ever are a bit much to cope with. There are plenty of other designers and classes that have had just as much development but they dont go around blowing their own trumpets like that. The traditonal skiff classes are about development and moving forward. you just dont get that in 49ers and 29ers its all about the Bethwaites making cash.

quote:

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Originally posted by Unchained

oh yeh an

Hosko and hoop you both seem to have everything in the world against 29ers, I myself have absalutly nothing against cherubs or 14ft skiffs.

The only thing i have against the classes is some of the dick heads that sail them!!!

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i don't know any dickheads that sail either class. and if u were implying that i'm a dickhead then i don't sail cherubs at the moment so u may like to reword your statement.

haha ive seen the exact opposite wen ive seen em racing each other guess it could jus come down to whos sailing them on the day .

haha yer tru my m8's vs some cherubs at the last Australia day regatta n beet em by like 5 mins or a leg or sumthin which is a preety decent effort

Unchained, What sail number is your 29er?

Just curious.

How many 29ers in the world now? and how many in Oz?

boats are at 1083 not sure about aus tho.
My boat is an older one, but it has only seen 2 seasons of sailing. Alot of the boats in wa are around 200-300 and all have seen crap all sailing.

i have got my hdro foil moth up to 32 knots was scary do not try aT home
(small risk of death)

peace out

I was on a 49er in sail melbourne 2002, it blew 27 knots with gusts of 32. We got so much speed up going down wind the main was in the middle and the kite was limp against the for sail for a second and we were still out on trap, bizzar feeling!!
we had either sailed into a hole and keept boat speed , but I still cant explain having no pressure in the kite and main sheet and still being on trap.
then we gybed and snaped the boom