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Racing my Swarbrick 26 using only the number 3 headsail

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Created by Bundeenabuoy A week ago, 6 Sep 2019
Bundeenabuoy
NSW, 623 posts
6 Sep 2019 8:14AM
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I am planning to race in the forecast strong winds tomorrow using only the number 3 headsail.
I have raced in the same conditions before.
We hit 12 knots running in 30 knots winds.
My boat weighs only 1400kgs.
I will have a total of four onboard.
Any advice as regards weight downstairs and crew positioning, etc.

shaggybaxter
QLD, 1797 posts
6 Sep 2019 8:57AM
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Bundeenabuoy said..
I am planning to race in the forecast strong winds tomorrow using only the number 3 headsail.
I have raced in the same conditions before.
We hit 12 knots running in 30 knots winds.
My boat weighs only 1400kgs.
I will have a total of four onboard.
Any advice as regards weight downstairs and crew positioning, etc.



Inshore or offshore B2?
Edit: there are two BB's now on Seabreeze, and because I'm Aussie and hence too lazy to pronounce more than one syllable, Bananabender became B1 and you're B2 :)

boty
QLD, 517 posts
6 Sep 2019 9:13AM
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everybody to the back of the bus downwind keep the kite on ease the vang
don't forget to yahoo and take photos

Bundeenabuoy
NSW, 623 posts
6 Sep 2019 9:52AM
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boty said..
everybody to the back of the bus downwind keep the kite on ease the vang
don't forget to yahoo and take photos


No kite tomorrow, just pure survival and excitement

Bundeenabuoy
NSW, 623 posts
6 Sep 2019 10:26AM
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shaggybaxter said..

Bundeenabuoy said..
I am planning to race in the forecast strong winds tomorrow using only the number 3 headsail.
I have raced in the same conditions before.
We hit 12 knots running in 30 knots winds.
My boat weighs only 1400kgs.
I will have a total of four onboard.
Any advice as regards weight downstairs and crew positioning, etc.




Inshore or offshore B2?
Edit: there are two BB's now on Seabreeze, and because I'm Aussie and hence too lazy to pronounce more than one syllable, Bananabender became B1 and you're B2 :)


Inshore

shaggybaxter
QLD, 1797 posts
6 Sep 2019 6:01PM
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If you're running a number three and no main :
Crew and weight: generally it would be all weight out and centred going to windward, and weight out and back for downwind. Stack your crew on the rail near to but behind the mast. Move them further back if you're digging the bow in, keep your rudder in the water.

Headsail: Put lots of halyard tension into the headsail. You want the the draft of the sail to move forward toward the forestay, the boat will heel less, less weight needed to keep it upright. Hard on the backstay, or the forestay will curve more in heavy airs which sucks for trying to beat to windward.

Environment. Check the weather forecast and tide times, an opposing wind and tide is miserable in 30 knots. If you run into it don't plough straight into short sharp seas, crack off 10-15 degrees and smooth out the ride. That'll make better use of the weight positioning.

Nav: Without a mainsail to counter the jib your bow will blow off much easier. When going to windward factor in this extra leeward drfit. Aim higher than usual to lay the mark.

Hope you have a great time!

Craig66
NSW, 1761 posts
6 Sep 2019 6:16PM
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All I can add is .....
Fill the eski with beers and ice then lash it down so it won't spill

Chris 249
NSW, 1807 posts
6 Sep 2019 6:42PM
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Well, you've got a boat that races as a One Design in Vic and especially WA. So that means half of the hard work has been done for you. Those guys have spent decades working out how to sail S 80s fast. So leap onto their class websites and check to see if there is heavy weather advice, and copy it. Otherwise, Shaggy's on the money although you're not going to meet that sort of steep seas in Sydney.

This seems to be the goldmine of available S80 knowledge

s3-ap-southeast-2.amazonaws.com/piano.revolutionise.com.au/site/mwzbg7nrf1yyeeud.pdf

The thing I really notice from doing coaching and personal experience is that the top sailors react much faster, but with much smaller movements, than the back of the fleet. This is a feedback loop - they don't need to make big course changes or big trim changes, because they have made small changes very quickly. For instance, many skippers try to just drive along on a course upwind in heavy air and leave it too late to point just a fraction higher, and many mainsheet hands ease the main sheet or traveller too late and therefore have to ease too much. This is something that takes a lot of work to get right. As a top pro trimmer/sailmaker told me many years ago, it's not so much how much you adjust the rig, but the fact that you adjust it quickly enough often enough,

r13
NSW, 32 posts
6 Sep 2019 10:41PM
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Lead Balloon out of MHYC was the top S80 in Sydney in the late 70s and early 80s - it totally slayed the jog fleet.
Bundeena I don't know why you would want to race with just a no3 headsail, no main - obviously I understand the wind issue but you need some sort of rag aft of the mast to balance the boat upwind else as per prior posts you will go sideways more than forward. I have a serviceable J24 main in the shed which you can have to cut down as a 25-30kts storm main if you want it gratis.

Chris 249
NSW, 1807 posts
7 Sep 2019 7:36AM
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/\

I was wondering whether he meant #3 and main or just #3, and I assumed it was the former since the latter would be dangerous in a race unless you'd had some practice; as you say, the handling is so compromised and the boat so out of balance, especially at low speeds.

SandS
VIC, 5714 posts
7 Sep 2019 9:54AM
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i would suggest start with 2 reefs in main and 100 percent jib , evaluate the runs and maybe shake out one reef if you need more speed .

saltiest1
NSW, 2071 posts
7 Sep 2019 10:12AM
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CSC races cancelled today due to gale warning. I'm staying snug

Bundeenabuoy
NSW, 623 posts
7 Sep 2019 1:45PM
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Chris 249 said..
/\

I was wondering whether he meant #3 and main or just #3, and I assumed it was the former since the latter would be dangerous in a race unless you'd had some practice; as you say, the handling is so compromised and the boat so out of balance, especially at low speeds.





None of the crew who regularly sail with me were going to be on my boat today.
Of the three crew I planned to take out, only one had race before with me.
It was planned to be a social sail with friend and a shared lunch.

A number of seasons ago in 30 knot winds I raced with only a no 3 and no main.
We did manage to get round the course.
My boat is only 1400 kgs and can roundup in strong winds if crew do not understand where the weight should be as we tack.

Our goal today was just to get out on the water.
Last night I choose not to sail because of the weather and today the race was abandoned.
Fortunately no harm came to anyone or the boat.
Thanks for all your advice, I have learn't alot.

UncleBob
NSW, 452 posts
7 Sep 2019 4:28PM
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Select to expand quote
Bundeenabuoy said..

Chris 249 said..
/\

I was wondering whether he meant #3 and main or just #3, and I assumed it was the former since the latter would be dangerous in a race unless you'd had some practice; as you say, the handling is so compromised and the boat so out of balance, especially at low speeds.






None of the crew who regularly sail with me were going to be on my boat today.
Of the three crew I planned to take out, only one had race before with me.
It was planned to be a social sail with friend and a shared lunch.

A number of seasons ago in 30 knot winds I raced with only a no 3 and no main.
We did manage to get round the course.
My boat is only 1400 kgs and can roundup in strong winds if crew do not understand where the weight should be as we tack.

Our goal today was just to get out on the water.
Last night I choose not to sail because of the weather and today the race was abandoned.
Fortunately no harm came to anyone or the boat.
Thanks for all your advice, I have learn't alot.



Select to expand quote
Bundeenabuoy said..

Chris 249 said..
/\

I was wondering whether he meant #3 and main or just #3, and I assumed it was the former since the latter would be dangerous in a race unless you'd had some practice; as you say, the handling is so compromised and the boat so out of balance, especially at low speeds.






None of the crew who regularly sail with me were going to be on my boat today.
Of the three crew I planned to take out, only one had race before with me.
It was planned to be a social sail with friend and a shared lunch.

A number of seasons ago in 30 knot winds I raced with only a no 3 and no main.
We did manage to get round the course.
My boat is only 1400 kgs and can roundup in strong winds if crew do not understand where the weight should be as we tack.

Our goal today was just to get out on the water.
Last night I choose not to sail because of the weather and today the race was abandoned.
Fortunately no harm came to anyone or the boat.
Thanks for all your advice, I have learn't alot.



And according to the forecast tomorrow will be even worse.

Bundeenabuoy
NSW, 623 posts
7 Sep 2019 7:30PM
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UncleBob said..

Bundeenabuoy said..


Chris 249 said..
/\

I was wondering whether he meant #3 and main or just #3, and I assumed it was the former since the latter would be dangerous in a race unless you'd had some practice; as you say, the handling is so compromised and the boat so out of balance, especially at low speeds.







None of the crew who regularly sail with me were going to be on my boat today.
Of the three crew I planned to take out, only one had race before with me.
It was planned to be a social sail with friend and a shared lunch.

A number of seasons ago in 30 knot winds I raced with only a no 3 and no main.
We did manage to get round the course.
My boat is only 1400 kgs and can roundup in strong winds if crew do not understand where the weight should be as we tack.

Our goal today was just to get out on the water.
Last night I choose not to sail because of the weather and today the race was abandoned.
Fortunately no harm came to anyone or the boat.
Thanks for all your advice, I have learn't alot.





Bundeenabuoy said..


Chris 249 said..
/\

I was wondering whether he meant #3 and main or just #3, and I assumed it was the former since the latter would be dangerous in a race unless you'd had some practice; as you say, the handling is so compromised and the boat so out of balance, especially at low speeds.







None of the crew who regularly sail with me were going to be on my boat today.
Of the three crew I planned to take out, only one had race before with me.
It was planned to be a social sail with friend and a shared lunch.

A number of seasons ago in 30 knot winds I raced with only a no 3 and no main.
We did manage to get round the course.
My boat is only 1400 kgs and can roundup in strong winds if crew do not understand where the weight should be as we tack.

Our goal today was just to get out on the water.
Last night I choose not to sail because of the weather and today the race was abandoned.
Fortunately no harm came to anyone or the boat.
Thanks for all your advice, I have learn't alot.




And according to the forecast tomorrow will be even worse.


Yes,
I feel for all the sailors out there.
I don't remember a weekend totally written off in a long while?

EC31
NSW, 411 posts
Sunday , 8 Sep 2019 8:19PM
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Our racing was cancelled yesterday, but we raced today, with a reach out to Lion Island and return. It was a bit gusty early, but eased off as the day went on. The conditions suited my boat.

Tomorrow is looking like Saturday on steroids tho......

Galatea
VIC, 69 posts
Wednesday , 11 Sep 2019 9:57AM
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I have seen a mast break on a 38' fractional rigged boat sailing under headsail alone in flat water. With nothing behind the mast and locking it up as it were. We were alongside and watching the mast pumping and twisting in each gust. Then bang!
whilst the loads are much lower on an S80. It may still be a concern if you add big waves and loads induced falling off them.
Plus limited manoeuvrability particularly when tacking does not help when racing.

Bundeenabuoy
NSW, 623 posts
Wednesday , 11 Sep 2019 12:17PM
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Galatea said..
I have seen a mast break on a 38' fractional rigged boat sailing under headsail alone in flat water. With nothing behind the mast and locking it up as it were. We were alongside and watching the mast pumping and twisting in each gust. Then bang!
whilst the loads are much lower on an S80. It may still be a concern if you add big waves and loads induced falling off them.
Plus limited manoeuvrability particularly when tacking does not help when racing.



Thank you for telling me that.
I had all new standing rigging replaced two years ago.
I am just glad that I choose not to race before the race was abandoned.
At least that was the right decision.

BlueMoon
632 posts
Thursday , 12 Sep 2019 6:52AM
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Galatea said..
I have seen a mast break on a 38' fractional rigged boat sailing under headsail alone in flat water. With nothing behind the mast and locking it up as it were. We were alongside and watching the mast pumping and twisting in each gust. Then bang!
whilst the loads are much lower on an S80. It may still be a concern if you add big waves and loads induced falling off them.
Plus limited manoeuvrability particularly when tacking does not help when racing.


I'm glad you brought that up Galatea, I've often looked at the rig while sailing in solid wind with only the headsail up and thought the whole rig looked weaker without a main, and more vulnerable to breakages.
Performance aside, what I'm understanding your saying is it's better to have some main up at all times, so instead of reducing a bulk of area from the mainsail, you should reef both head and main together.
What happens when you need to get rid of more sail area and your down to 2nd main reef already?
is there any precautions you can take to protect the rig if you have to run under just a storm jib?
cheers

shaggybaxter
QLD, 1797 posts
Thursday , 12 Sep 2019 9:42AM
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It's worth remembering your spreaders too, as they have a bearing on the loads, and where those loads are transmitted.
Swept back spreaders are not the best when running ddw, but they do take a lot of the strain off , and hence the reliance on, the backstay.
Swept spreaders is the only reason my backstay-less rig stays up, so they're more the extreme at 117 degrees, but the principle is the same. If you get to the magical 120 degrees, that's perfect triangulation and no backstay required, at least in regards to holding the rig up.
So whilst Inline spreaders are good, in fact they're awesome for rig tuning, just be extra diligent with your backstay maintenance compared to swept spreaders.

r13
NSW, 32 posts
Thursday , 12 Sep 2019 11:40PM
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Ok understand your text re 120deg spreaders and hence 3 lots of stays at 120degrees around the 360deg perimeter of the rig but there is a lot more to it than that for yacht rigs as a criteria for not needing a backstay.

The book "Principles of Yacht Design" has great chapters on rig design and calculations for anyone interested. Now in 4th edition and I am not sure how this could be improved on. Albeit it does not include anything on foiling yachts.............so there you go for the 5th edition..............

The Bergstrom and Ridder rig has no backstay but it has other compromises............

sailingmagazine.net/article-99-bergstrom-&-ridder-38.html

www.mysailing.com.au/news/cruise-in-comfort-the-new-hunter-39

shaggybaxter
QLD, 1797 posts
Friday , 13 Sep 2019 2:29AM
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Yep, agree. My point was there's less load on the back stay with swept spreaders, not that you don't need one.

Galatea
VIC, 69 posts
Friday , 13 Sep 2019 8:18AM
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Select to expand quote
BlueMoon said..


Galatea said..
I have seen a mast break on a 38' fractional rigged boat sailing under headsail alone in flat water. With nothing behind the mast and locking it up as it were. We were alongside and watching the mast pumping and twisting in each gust. Then bang!
whilst the loads are much lower on an S80. It may still be a concern if you add big waves and loads induced falling off them.
Plus limited manoeuvrability particularly when tacking does not help when racing.




I'm glad you brought that up Galatea, I've often looked at the rig while sailing in solid wind with only the headsail up and thought the whole rig looked weaker without a main, and more vulnerable to breakages.
Performance aside, what I'm understanding your saying is it's better to have some main up at all times, so instead of reducing a bulk of area from the mainsail, you should reef both head and main together.
What happens when you need to get rid of more sail area and your down to 2nd main reef already?
is there any precautions you can take to protect the rig if you have to run under just a storm jib?
cheers



Run under storm jib is the operative word, you will be ok with wind aft and just the storm jib up. Going upwind once you go into "survival " mode, best to keep the reefed main and lose the jib.
Even if it means 3rd reef or a trysail. Big debate point in itself!
In big waves do not try and point high but sail at about 60 degrees, lessens the impact of waves on hull and rig.
But there are exceptions, in light of my experience narrated above, I was very interested in the footage of Midnight Rambler belting upwind with just a storm jib and winning the bad Hobart ( 94?) . Wondered if they had running back stays, a super strong rig or just exceptionally good sailors ( which they are)

LooseChange
NSW, 1994 posts
Friday , 13 Sep 2019 9:10AM
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shaggybaxter said..
Yep, agree. My point was there's less load on the back stay with swept spreaders, not that you don't need one.


Your rig Shaggy is more akin to a cat rig than a monohull.

Yara
NSW, 882 posts
Friday , 13 Sep 2019 9:50AM
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The standing rigging design type is critical. A fractional rig provides a bending moment on the mast which needs to be resisted. Jumper struts and diamond stays is one way to do the job.
Looking at the YW crash test video, you can see that the jib/forestay provides the greatest load on the rig. IMHO as the wind gets up you want a balanced rig, so reefed main and reefed or smaller jib would be good. That's where a cutter rig with the smaller jib on the inner helps the balance. However, you are back to the same rigging problem as a fractional. Enter the Solent rig.



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"Racing my Swarbrick 26 using only the number 3 headsail" started by Bundeenabuoy