oldboyracer said..
This board is great because you get a wide variety of opinions on the one topic, which you can read and then do what you like with the information . Some one has lost a mate, father , husband on another post here and it's not my place to comment or criticise on circumstances my condolences go to his friends and family .
I agree

I'm a newby when it comes to being on the helm, I've sailed for 30 years on skiffs and yachts always up the front , the first time I set a spiniker what a buzz , the first time I dropped it in the water and towed it behind the boat , not so great . I'm now on my own boat down the blunt end and on a steep learning curve , and frankly I'm scared , not for me but for the people who I take out for a sail. Most have no experience on a boat , trying to explain one hand for you one for the boat is about as much I can say .As I'm responsible for them I explain what to do if some one goes over the side and then when underway throw a hat in and get some one else on the helm to get it back just in case the hat is me lol . I've invested in inflatable life jackets which every one has to wear on the basis that if you go over your at least going to float .
All good points

By myself I use jack lines and harness with crutch strap and that's even when in the harbour ( yes I look like a d@ck head ) but if I don't get used to wearing it when it's calm I'm sure when it's rough it's ten times harder .
You don't look like a d@ckhead - you look like a sailor acknowledging the risks and taking responsibility for his own safety. Hopefully, the days of the unwarranted macho image that some emotionally immature yobbos like to attach to sailing are fading, as they get a bit more real.

Went swimming at a pool the other day , I was always a great swimmer 800 meters not a problem . Um I got old hey , 300 meters and I had to stop now I really like my life jacket . It even has my name on it now .
Not much good being able to swim 800 metres without a life jacket if you're 1200 metres offshore......

What are your rules on board and mistakes I'm sure I will duplicate .
Too many to list here...looks to me like you're doing the right thing

regards,
Allan

I wear my lifejacket because I have to crossing a bar by law. I nearly always keep it on now except those times I'm sun tanning!

answered my own question , yes it is ! no more sun baking Ramona !

NSW law cut and pasted

when PFDs must be worn

in vessels under 4.8m at night, offshore, or on alpine waters, and when boating alone;by children under 12 years of age at all times in a vessel under 4.8m, and in an open area of a vessel 4.8m to 8m while underway;in recreational vessels of any size when crossing coastal bars;by anyone being towed, such as waterskiing and wakeboarding; andon personal watercraft at any time while underway.

Having recently completed a couple of coastal passages with crews with varying levels of experience, and possessing a fairly limited pool of yacht knowledge to draw from, I've had to have a pretty serious think about how to deal with emergencies.

So to that end:
1. Everyone who comes on the boat gets a safety brief - where the spare lifejackets are, where the flares are, where the bailing bucket is, where the fire extinguishers are, etc. But also - how to start the engine and how to operate the radio. If I go over - someone else needs to be able to transmit the mayday and start the engine to come and pick me up.
2. After leaving the mooring life jackets are to be worn if leaving the cockpit.
3. After leaving the heads life jackets are to be worn at all times and lifelines are to be worn if leaving the cockpit - NO EXCEPTIONS
4. At night the Officer of the watch can make the decision that lifelines are to be worn above decks
5. At night all personnel are to carry a cyalume (glow) stick - (It is on the joblist to attach them to the lifejackets - so they don't fall out of peoples pockets, I'm also investigating the possibility of mini flares on the life jackets as well)

I've also started writing a set of Ships standing orders that I plan to give to everyone who will be overnighting onboard which among other things contains the standard emergency procedures onboard. That however is a work in progress.

For racing, we have our boat Certified for Cat 4. Even if not racing, it's worth having a look at as I think it's sets a good minimum standard of equipment for general coastal cruising, things like a knife strapped in the cockpit and an equipment location diagram stuck up on the wall in the cabin (there is no way a newbie can take in much more than the first sentence of a safety equipment briefing so at least tell them to firstly look at the diagram).

A couple of things I have picked up over the years, racing, cruising, delivering, apart from the obvious.

1. As said above, cyalume sticks, I put one on string around my neck.
2. Bum bag, a trend from the '80's but handy to chuck a range of items in. Wear inside all PFD harness/straps etc so it doesn't interfere.
3. Wine cask. Yes, but empty, put in pocket or bum bag as secondary flotation device, takes very little space and you can enjoy emptying the contents.
4. Knives. I have a tether cutter (crewsaver) fitted to PFD, a small folding sail knife on string in pocket and a leatherman on belt.
5. Portable VHF, always in cockpit, clipped onto self when single handed or with just the kids etc.
6. Loud whistle! around neck to wake up crew in emergency. Surprising how loud a small whistle you can get for next to nothing.
7. Dolphin torch or cheapy floating torches. Several on deck at night to throw overboard in MOB.
8. Throw line/rescue sling, both ready to go.

Unless you are a team that sail together regularly and are relatively experienced, SOP's or drills in my opinion are a waste of time, anything that requires beyond a basic level coordination will likely end in disaster (something makes me think the M3 beaching might be this kind of thing). If you are the most experienced, talk to the next guy down the experience level on your crew and run over the basics.

New to a boat or crew? Usually not that hard to pick the guy/girl who you consider the best person to rely on in an emergency. Not necessarily the skipper or watch captain, but someone to stick close to if the crap starts.

During a Sea Safety & Survival course I realised how difficult it is to swim or get into a life raft with a fully inflated PFD.
So difficult that I have disabled the auto-inflate function on my PFD so that if I go overboard I'll have some manoeuvrability to help with my rescue. I can still inflate my PFD by pulling the cord (to trigger the gas bottle).
Of course, if I'm unconscious when I go over its probably curtains of me, but I'm comfortable with my decision.
Any thoughts?
regards,
Allan

Datawiz said..
During a Sea Safety & Survival course I realised how difficult it is to swim or get into a life raft with a fully inflated PFD.
So difficult that I have disabled the auto-inflate function on my PFD so that if I go overboard I'll have some manoeuvrability to help with my rescue. I can still inflate my PFD by pulling the cord (to trigger the gas bottle).
Of course, if I'm unconscious when I go over its probably curtains of me, but I'm comfortable with my decision.
Any thoughts?
regards,
Allan

I did the same Datawiz,
I didn't like the auto inflating versions, I have had green water in the cockpit and had them auto inflate which is a real nuisance if you're trying to get the boat back up up after being pinned.
Now I use a manual PFD, and as you pointed out, this is fine except for when you're solo sailing and you get knocked out. Still a risk, but en educated one.
The one thing I did to mitigate this risk is invest in an autopilot with a wireless fob that I wear. If the boat is motoring and I go overboard, it starts turning in a circle, if under sail it will put the boat into irons.

Pretty sure we had this discussion a few years ago when the amended lifejacket rules came out, they are as clear as mud & even MaritimeNSW could not decipher them when I phoned them for clarification. After a few phone calls back and forth, the conclusion reached by them that you weren't required to wear a PFD in your dinghy, when alone if you are within 200m of the mother-ship.

nswsailor said..

Ramona said..

SandS said..


answered my own question , yes it is ! no more sun baking Ramona !

NSW law cut and pasted

when PFDs must be worn

in vessels under 4.8m at night, offshore, or on alpine waters, and when boating alone;by children under 12 years of age at all times in a vessel under 4.8m, and in an open area of a vessel 4.8m to 8m while underway;in recreational vessels of any size when crossing coastal bars;by anyone being towed, such as waterskiing and wakeboarding; andon personal watercraft at any time while underway.

My boat is 9.144m so I'm legal to sun tan! When I was a professional fisherman I did not have to wear a jacket at anytime! Now I'm an amateur mariner the government assumes I'm a dick.

If you re-read that you will see that a single adult HAS to wear a life jacket in vessels up to 4.8m. The rest applies to children.

So in my 6' dinghy if I take my mate out we don't have to wear life jackets where I alone, would! work that one out!

you will get fined eventually Ramona ............... it states " and when boating alone "


we have that same situation here in vic it came in years ago .

spiggie said..

Datawiz said..
During a Sea Safety & Survival course I realised how difficult it is to swim or get into a life raft with a fully inflated PFD.
So difficult that I have disabled the auto-inflate function on my PFD so that if I go overboard I'll have some manoeuvrability to help with my rescue. I can still inflate my PFD by pulling the cord (to trigger the gas bottle).
Of course, if I'm unconscious when I go over its probably curtains of me, but I'm comfortable with my decision.
Any thoughts?
regards,
Allan

Try getting into a life raft with a full survival suite and Solas regulation (life jackets the big bulky ones)
Only one way to get into a life raft step into it when the vessels in sinking and only then.
Unfortunately due to OH@S regulation we can only train in a pool environment .

Many years ago i ended up in a life raft in the south atlantic ,not a plesent experience ,their is a few things missing in the goody bag TOILET PAPER ,
PEE BOTTLE,SUNSCREEN ,LIP BALM to name a few

Talk about things not in the life raft. Reading glasses old buggers like me need to read the instructions. But in saying that when I had my life raft packed I did get some extras put in, but I've also got a grab bag full of goodies. But I live in hope that the gps epirb I put in the raft will get me back on dry land sooner than later. Plus grab bags are only good if you get a chance to grab them.

If I had a planed departure into a life raft, I'd be grabbing my iPhone and Iridium Go. With these I can communicate directly with land so I know that they know, instead of wondering if the EPIRB real works.

I always have a 20L container of water strapped in the cockpit to take with me for the big exit. plus the grab bag has extra flares, chemical light, VHF, additional thermal suits (hate cold water), mirrors, whistles, chokes (might have to add date roll)

Also, are you all aware that you can log on to the Epirb registration site and log in your trip. I do it every time a new adventure starts and make updates on destinations, number of people on board, detailed description of boat. I also have a web page my yellow brick reports to and I include a link and password. I also do this when I take my PLB with me on someones else's boat.

I enjoy the freedom sailing offers , (almost always solo)
I accept the responsibility and access the risk

At + 50 years sailing , getting older and weaker
So things change

I wish everyone good luck
and please "lowest common denominator" dont spoil it for everyone
take responsibility for your actions , do whatever you need to do or stay at home

Alternative argument is let evolution take its course and refine the gene pool

I did like the wine cask and glasses comments ...always learning

Datawiz said..

o
By myself I use jack lines and harness with crutch strap and that's even when in the harbour ( yes I look like a d@ck head ) but if I don't get used to wearing it when it's calm I'm sure when it's rough it's ten times harder .
You don't look like a d@ckhead - you look like a sailor acknowledging the risks and taking responsibility for his own safety. Hopefully, the days of the unwarranted macho image that some emotionally immature yobbos like to attach to sailing are fading, as they get a bit more real.

regards,
Allan

Without wanting to be too controversial, let's look at it this way.

The last time (as far as I can recall) anyone was killed going overboard from a yacht in Sydney was about 1999. Since then, according to the Gemba report, there would have been something like 6 million individual sailing days on the Harbour, with (as far as I know) any death.

Therefore a typical person on the Harbour has a one in six million chance of being killed through going overboard. That is an incredibly tiny chance - about the same chance as being killed by walking 6 km, if I have my sums right. So how much safety equipment do we have nearby when walking 6ks? Most Sydney sailors would seem to have as much chance of being hit by an asteroid as they have of being killed by falling overboard on the harbour, according to what I can see from NASA and the Gemba report.

Therefore, competent sailors who do not normally wear protective gear on the harbour are NOT "emotionally immature yobbos", but rational people who understand the risks.

Do you wear safety equipment to protect you from other risks that are in the region of 6 million to one? Have you seen how much safer you would be wearing a bicycle helmet sitting down to dinner at home? That will almost certainly reduce your death of an early death much more than wearing a harness etc on a typical day on the harbour!


PS - I think the last sailor to die after going overboard in Sydney was hit by the boom - arguably if you are going to wear a harness you should also wear a helmet since the risks of death by each are probably roughly similar. And of course not neither of them are anywhere near as likely as having a heart attack.

A NSW Water Policeman has assured me the boating alone refers to under 4.8m vessels. The punctuation in the clause makes this clear. I don't need to wear one on MB inside Pittwater. I regularly give the local constabulary a wave when alone on MB not wearing a pfd, which I don't if staying in the cockpit.

That really is an illogical rule. How many people have been killed by falling overboard when sailing alone in a yacht on Port Phillip Bay? A couple, perhaps - but there is little if any logic in requiring safety gear to be worn in that situation when safety gear isn't required in many more hazardous situations.

We cannot guard against all risks. People already think sailing is too risky - make it appear even more risky and even more people may be turned off the sport and stop getting exercise - and lack of exercise is a much bigger risk than falling overboard.

When Maritime NSW changed PFD laws a while ago, some of the justification they used was simply factually wrong. Not only that, they apparently did not even try to carry out research to see if the justifications they gave were correct. It was rather sobering. I also rank up Lifesaving NSW to discuss the proposals and their reaction was "why are maritime trying to kill windsurfers?" Luckily the submission against the rules affecting windsurfing were dropped when their foolishness was pointed out by the Windsurfer One Design Class Association and WNSW.

On the plus side, they did respond to the written submissions from Windsurfing NSW/WODCA and Kiting NSW when it was pointed out that Maritime's facts were grossly wrong, and they dropped the proposed changes. What was disturbing was that neither Yachting NSW or Yachting Australia bothered to ask Windsurfing Australia or the kiters about their views when Maritime was drafting the proposals. Why in the world should I pay YNSW/YA dues when they will not even ask an inter-class association about changes to the laws that will actually INCREASE the dangers?

Yes, safety gear is important, but it's being treated all too often as a vital cure-all and it is a distraction from other factors that are more important in health and safety.

Ramona said..

Professional fishermen don't have to wear lifejackets crossing a bar, it's actually safer not to wear them.

Is it more dangerous with a PFD because you can't dive under the breakers? That's what has always worried me.