Forums > Sailing General

Something strange in Port Hacking

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Created by twodogs1969 2 months ago, 14 Sep 2017
twodogs1969
NSW, 663 posts
14 Sep 2017 5:54AM
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In the last week 2 boats have sunk at Jibbon beach.
Here is a link to the story
m.facebook.com/story.php?story_fbid=10155541900791259&id=166166056258



for those who think cats don't tip

Lenn
NSW, 70 posts
14 Sep 2017 7:49AM
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Toucan - the Hatteras is my neighbours boat, simple grounding after the mooring line broke on the RMYC courtesy mooring....the Cat we watched out sailing on Wednesday racing, it was windy and rough and they had that cat up on one hull which to me says too much sail up for such a big boat...eventually they capsized, lower hull filled with water, would never be able to right the boat again

sirgallivant
NSW, 985 posts
14 Sep 2017 7:53AM
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The catamarans (and trimarans) natural position is upside down.

Ramona
NSW, 3827 posts
14 Sep 2017 8:02AM
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More info here.

www.cruisersforum.com/forums/f48/large-catamaran-flips-in-sydney-190983.html?utm_source=feedburner&utm_medium=email&utm_campaign=Feed%3A+cruisersforumnews+%28Cruisers+Forum+-+Emails%29

We had a large catamaran holed up here at Greenwell point for a few days during the last period of Westerlies. They had a miserable time with the strong wind over current. Eventually they escaped and had a blast up the coast to Port Hacking! Larger boat with blue hulls.

sirgallivant
NSW, 985 posts
14 Sep 2017 8:09AM
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Yeah, the balance of static vs. dynamic stability is on the side of a well designed monohull.

Madmouse
94 posts
14 Sep 2017 6:24AM
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Did this cat tip at its mooring or out sailing?

GKandCC
NSW, 116 posts
14 Sep 2017 8:45AM
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First photo seems to show the cat just off the shoreline but the second photo shows it much further out, but at the same orientation. What's going on there? Is it now moored?

Yara
NSW, 666 posts
14 Sep 2017 8:50AM
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Notice in the second shot that the dagger board is out. Maybe the one that is underwater has hooked in the mud, and together with a flooded lower hull,is keeping it balanced there. Of course, the mast is also sticking in the mud!

Lenn
NSW, 70 posts
14 Sep 2017 9:26AM
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It was out sailing

it flipped and a rescue boat that luckily happened to be doing training that afternoon attended to it very quickly and towed it back into the reasonable shelter of Jibbon beach...the mast would now be on the sea floor, the lower hull is full of water as you would expect...i might motor out and have a lookc today although it is a howling NW here now

twodogs1969
NSW, 663 posts
14 Sep 2017 3:00PM
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It's now upright


shaggybaxter
QLD, 819 posts
14 Sep 2017 3:02PM
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Poor bastard.
Hope they're all ok and he gets her back together soon.

twodogs1969
NSW, 663 posts
14 Sep 2017 3:19PM
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Bet his glad he has more then third party insurance.

Chris 249
ACT, 1234 posts
14 Sep 2017 4:02PM
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sirgallivant said..
The catamarans (and trimarans) natural position is upside down.



Just as the mono's natural position is on the bottom of the ocean.

That is a big cruiser/racer to capsize, though, and it's not the first one to do so off Sydney in recent years.

Jedibrad
NSW, 479 posts
14 Sep 2017 5:30PM
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That's my mates boat. 18m mast in about 4m of water near jibbon there. It's a light weight 52 ft Oram.

Kankama
NSW, 96 posts
14 Sep 2017 6:30PM
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Thanks for the facts Lenn, always interesting to know how these things happen.

Interesting to know that they were flying a hull. One problem with flying a hull is that you are on the wrong side of the stability curve. Before a cat flies a hull every degree of heel increases stability, after the hull flies every degree of heel decreases stability. For me, big cats shouldn't fly hulls, I have done it on a 43 footer but we had someone always on the sheet, and it was full on all the time. Still, we didn't do it in gusty conditions.

As for cats and monos, it is silly to use a single event to put down other people's choices. Cats can be fab, monos can be fab. Neither is better than the other, just different. We can make our choices and applaud those who choose differently. Our boats will reflect our needs and as we all have different needs we need different boats.

cheers

Phil

Lenn
NSW, 70 posts
14 Sep 2017 7:18PM
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no prob, it was way to windy / gusty today to go out again for another look see, although someone else posted an updated pic...glad it is backup...i have seen this one out in solid breeze and she does get speed up....would have been fun at the time i guess but i would be sweating bricks if i was one hull lifting on such a big boat, regardless of it can take it / or no not...soon it will only be cats on the hacking anyway, the way the bars are loading up in the past few years.

Trek
NSW, 586 posts
14 Sep 2017 9:15PM
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twodogs1969 said..
Bet his glad he has more then third party insurance.



Agree. Anyone with 3rd party only insurance would be a dill to sail a big cat in a gale unless he can cover his own losses as many can. Thats what I do. And if theres a blow stay home. Saves a fortune.

How many "comprehensive" insurers would cover such a situation...none. They would evade it. Blame the skipper whatever. Seen and heard it many times including here.

shaggybaxter
QLD, 819 posts
14 Sep 2017 10:17PM
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I'm a mono guy, but the suggestion of tippiness is not a general cat blanche ( )statement, it depends upon the cat design. A Crowther 60' I used to foredeck would fly a hull all day without even coming close to losing control. They had enormous volume in the bows so it wouldn't trip over itself. She was rock solid at 28 knots, never felt close to losing it.

cisco
QLD, 10151 posts
14 Sep 2017 11:45PM
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Chris 249 said..
Just as the mono's natural position is on the bottom of the ocean.


Well that statement settles the "mono vs multi" debate doesn't it!!

cisco
QLD, 10151 posts
15 Sep 2017 12:11AM
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Kankama said..
Interesting to know that they were flying a hull. One problem with flying a hull is that you are on the wrong side of the stability curve.


It reminds me of this scene from the remake of "The Thomas Crown Affair" where he tips it regardless of the cost.

The original with Steve McQueen and Faye Dunaway and the remake with Pierce Brosnan and Renee Russo are both very good and mandatory watching for any independant thinking sailor who is a tad rebellious about the status quo.

Both on Youtube, pay or free, one way or another.

Kankama
NSW, 96 posts
15 Sep 2017 6:56AM
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Hey Shaggy - me thinks you are talking about Shotover. I heard the same thing from one of Lock's draughtsmen who said she was quite placid and didn't require quick reflexes. I had the job of sanding her for a paint job once, that took a while.

Thankfully we have come a long way since the early days of my multihull sailing. I had friends in the 80s who refused to come on board my little tri and mono racing friends who thought I had joined a cult. As someone who likes to race monos and dinghies, and cruise cats it always makes me roll me eyes when someone trots out the old stalwart argument as a way of advancing the debate.

From my experience of the debate over 35 years, anyone who thinks that cats are bad or monos are bad is either a bad sailor or hasn't sailed on enough good designs of either type. The great sailors - the Slingsbys, Novaks, Outerridges, sail any good boat they can get their hands on, no matter the number of hulls. They learn to sail them differently because the boats are different, not better or worse.

Sectorsteve
NSW, 1930 posts
15 Sep 2017 7:58AM
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Kankama said..
Hey Shaggy - me thinks you are talking about Shotover. I heard the same thing from one of Lock's draughtsmen who said she was quite placid and didn't require quick reflexes. I had the job of sanding her for a paint job once, that took a while.

Thankfully we have come a long way since the early days of my multihull sailing. I had friends in the 80s who refused to come on board my little tri and mono racing friends who thought I had joined a cult. As someone who likes to race monos and dinghies, and cruise cats it always makes me roll me eyes when someone trots out the old stalwart argument as a way of advancing the debate.

From my experience of the debate over 35 years, anyone who thinks that cats are bad or monos are bad is either a bad sailor or hasn't sailed on enough good designs of either type. The great sailors - the Slingsbys, Novaks, Outerridges, sail any good boat they can get their hands on, no matter the number of hulls. They learn to sail them differently because the boats are different, not better or worse.



I met a guy with a trailerable tri on peel island. Had a nice covered open cabin/cockpit. Cooker. Furler. Light. Fast. And sat jn 30cm if water. I want one
In fact there are alot of tris up here and i know why. You just cant get shelter in alot of places in a deep keeler around here.

shaggybaxter
QLD, 819 posts
15 Sep 2017 8:45AM
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Select to expand quote
Kankama said..
Hey Shaggy - me thinks you are talking about Shotover. I heard the same thing from one of Lock's draughtsmen who said she was quite placid and didn't require quick reflexes. I had the job of sanding her for a paint job once, that took a while.

Thankfully we have come a long way since the early days of my multihull sailing. I had friends in the 80s who refused to come on board my little tri and mono racing friends who thought I had joined a cult. As someone who likes to race monos and dinghies, and cruise cats it always makes me roll me eyes when someone trots out the old stalwart argument as a way of advancing the debate.

From my experience of the debate over 35 years, anyone who thinks that cats are bad or monos are bad is either a bad sailor or hasn't sailed on enough good designs of either type. The great sailors - the Slingsbys, Novaks, Outerridges, sail any good boat they can get their hands on, no matter the number of hulls. They learn to sail them differently because the boats are different, not better or worse.






G'day Kankama,
You think correctly. Respect sir, I would rather rip off my left arm rather than have to sand that behemoth. I agree re: THE debate, it seems a bit naff to generalise, they're all sailboats to me, I enjoy them all.
Funny Shotover story; we were doing a Gladstone and a pair of us were being interviewed by a Ch9 crew we had onboard. We were sitting right next to the spinnaker halyard winch when the turning block for the halyard at the bottom of the mast let go, it blew the winch completely off the deck in the blink of an eye, it sounded like a bomb going off. All you could see in the video was the pair of us launch ourselves out of the picture, haven't moved that fast in my life. Made for an entertaining video!






Select to expand quote
Sectorsteve said..





Kankama said..
Hey Shaggy - me thinks you are talking about Shotover. I heard the same thing from one of Lock's draughtsmen who said she was quite placid and didn't require quick reflexes. I had the job of sanding her for a paint job once, that took a while.

Thankfully we have come a long way since the early days of my multihull sailing. I had friends in the 80s who refused to come on board my little tri and mono racing friends who thought I had joined a cult. As someone who likes to race monos and dinghies, and cruise cats it always makes me roll me eyes when someone trots out the old stalwart argument as a way of advancing the debate.

From my experience of the debate over 35 years, anyone who thinks that cats are bad or monos are bad is either a bad sailor or hasn't sailed on enough good designs of either type. The great sailors - the Slingsbys, Novaks, Outerridges, sail any good boat they can get their hands on, no matter the number of hulls. They learn to sail them differently because the boats are different, not better or worse.








I met a guy with a trailerable tri on peel island. Had a nice covered open cabin/cockpit. Cooker. Furler. Light. Fast. And sat jn 30cm if water. I want one
In fact there are alot of tris up here and i know why. You just cant get shelter in alot of places in a deep keeler around here.







Hi Sector,
If you sail in Qld, yep, shallow water capability is a boon indeed, for mono's that means a lift/swing keel if you don't want the tippiness of a shoal draft keel (trailer sailors have a lot of good points). We pulled into Tangalooma recently when it was seriously packed. Navigating through the congestion looking for a spot, I had to drive through a narrow slot behind a catamaran parked no more than 10mtrs off the beach.
The poor guy on the cat and his mate on the beach were yelling at me not to be a fool, as we cheekily waved and motored straight on through. We often get funny looks in anchorages as we end up parked up next to the multis and the trailer sailors.

boty
QLD, 256 posts
15 Sep 2017 8:54AM
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Kankama said..
Hey Shaggy - me thinks you are talking about Shotover. I heard the same thing from one of Lock's draughtsmen who said she was quite placid and didn't require quick reflexes. I had the job of sanding her for a paint job once, that took a while.

Thankfully we have come a long way since the early days of my multihull sailing. I had friends in the 80s who refused to come on board my little tri and mono racing friends who thought I had joined a cult. As someone who likes to race monos and dinghies, and cruise cats it always makes me roll me eyes when someone trots out the old stalwart argument as a way of advancing the debate.

From my experience of the debate over 35 years, anyone who thinks that cats are bad or monos are bad is either a bad sailor or hasn't sailed on enough good designs of either type. The great sailors - the Slingsbys, Novaks, Outerridges, sail any good boat they can get their hands on, no matter the number of hulls. They learn to sail them differently because the boats are different, not better or worse.


i find what you say interesting as i much prefer cruising on heavy displacement monos with there smooth ride and load carrying capacity but i dont mind racing on high performance cats ,though much more uncomfortable you do get there quick . the cat i did Gladstone on this year which we won line honors on we try to never lift the hull out when at sea and as stated by others stability drops off as soon as it comes out ,though when bay racing in flatter water will occasionally lift out but everyone is fully aware of how critical this is
as far as i have seen in queensland none of the offshore cats intentionally fly a hull at sea as far as i have seen even though its faster the chance of a whipeout will cost you the race and a lot of money
no wrong decisions on what type of boat just which one you prefer

shaggybaxter
QLD, 819 posts
15 Sep 2017 9:07AM
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G'day Boty,
Is pagan doing the St Helena cup this year?

boty
QLD, 256 posts
15 Sep 2017 9:25AM
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shaggybaxter said..
G'day Boty,
Is pagan doing the St Helena cup this year?


definitely trying to put team together now hope we have another 30 knot day that second race was fun im assuming your going

shaggybaxter
QLD, 819 posts
15 Sep 2017 10:08AM
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boty said..

shaggybaxter said..
G'day Boty,
Is pagan doing the St Helena cup this year?



definitely trying to put team together now hope we have another 30 knot day that second race was fun im assuming your going


Absolutely! If you can't muster the crew mate, let us know and come along with us.

boty
QLD, 256 posts
15 Sep 2017 11:16AM
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shaggybaxter said..

boty said..


shaggybaxter said..
G'day Boty,
Is pagan doing the St Helena cup this year?




definitely trying to put team together now hope we have another 30 knot day that second race was fun im assuming your going



Absolutely! If you can't muster the crew mate, let us know and come along with us.


crew sorted just the other boats in team as skirmish is doing short course and tequila has josh going to Sydney to sail on dorade so no Buggered Old Timber Yacht team

Trek
NSW, 586 posts
15 Sep 2017 11:21AM
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cisco said..

Chris 249 said..
Just as the mono's natural position is on the bottom of the ocean.



Well that statement settles the "mono vs multi" debate doesn't it!!


I reckon it does too! But it didn't break in the middle as legend has it. That's a plus.

Lenn
NSW, 70 posts
15 Sep 2017 1:59PM
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just went out to Jibbon, the cat is gone, i assume when the got her backupright, just pumped out the water, check for any structure damage and possible got back on her own steam or towed (engines may be a bit out of sorts from been (1) underwater (2) on 90 degree angle to flat... the big cruiser is still there on beach edge , they may have to cut it up to get rid of it

sirgallivant
NSW, 985 posts
16 Sep 2017 12:00PM
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Very clever Chris.

So while the mono sits on it's keel on the bottom the cat is balancing on the top of it's mast next to it? Or would it settle on the hulls?
Bloody biiig difference.

That cat at Jibbon would have gone down had had enough dept given time.



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"Something strange in Port Hacking" started by twodogs1969