www.abc.net.au/news/2022-07-15/tas-man-drowns-metres-from-police-after-trying-to-secure-yacht/101241916

Ooo no. Rest In Peace our dear fellow.

I must admit that I have given crotch straps any thought.
Will make a set up today.
gary

Bushdog said..

Ramona said..

ChopesBro said..
www.abc.net.au/news/2022-07-15/tas-man-drowns-metres-from-police-after-trying-to-secure-yacht/101241916

Very sad and could easily happen to anyone of us. This is a reminder to ensure you use a safety vest with a crotch strap if required or buy one that does not need a strap.

Such an important issue. When I did my 2021 PFD checks, two failed the 24hr inflation test, so I took the opportunity to upgrade. Perhaps like others, I'd thought PFD crotch straps would be a hassle - uncomfortable and likely to catch on cockpit/deck fittings. Not so. In a recent five day sail along the Vic-NSW coast, using the crotch strap in light weather or foul weather gear caused no problems and actually helped keep the PFD properly fitted and comfortable. I've been converted. Newer design coastal and offshore PFD's have fittings/pockets for PLB's, which if used, could have reduced the time the NEXBA / Farr X sailors spent in the water. If a new PFD seems like too much of an expense, you can get a retro fit crotch strap for your existing gear for @ $25.

Ditto, two of mine failed so I got a pair of crewsaver at just over $100 each, complete with crotch strap permanently fitted.

Wouldn't the ultimate test of the two whitworth ( or any other brand ) crotch straps be in the water...in 40 plus knots at 10 degs, 5 mt.plus waves AND nine metres of swell and at 3 am ?

Not on deck while trying to open the cheap bottle of plonk in the marina berth on a sunny sunday or " in the backyard at mums"

I'd prefer the findings of the tests that are done in really ****e conditions.
We don't have any YET but l have been thinking of getting some now the grandkids are getting older.

I have to wear a pdf when I cross the bar and mine does not need a crotch strap though it has connections for them. When the weather is unpleasant I wear my non inflatable lifejacket to which I have added a helo lifting strop/safety harness and a bag for the strops. The lifejackets that support you under the armpits makes it easier for rescuers to find the body!

My non inflatable life jacket is actually one of my old dinghy vests converted. Last week at the Warrawong Salvos I picked up a neoprene jacket. The neoprene is 4 to 5mm with a wetsuit zip on the front, hoody and the chest is snug but the long sleeves are loose. Large pockets on the front ideal for putting your hands in while sleeping. This was $12 and brand new. It has the brand name Oceanic but I have no idea what it was designed for. I thought initially it was an undergarment for the snow fields. I wore it offshore the other day under a light weight spray jacket. It's now my standard winter rig! The amount of neoprene would probably support me and the loose sleeves allow plenty of movement. The hood is excellent and would be helpful if your in the water with a lifejacket and trying to keep the water breaking over your head.

I've said this story before, but a few years ago I had my head in the bilge of my yacht moored at Batemans Bay when I heard what sounded like a cry for help. About four boats away was a guy hanging into the mooring line of another yacht. It turned out that he was from the third boat in the mooring line. He and a mate had been aboard when their dinghy drifted away in the strong north easter. He jumped in to get it and found that he was being swept east (out to sea) by the current which runs at about 3 knots at times.

I hopped into the little tinny (about 8' long) and motored over to him, but it became obvious that there was no chance of getting him in. He didn't have the strength to get in, even with help, nor the balance to keep the boat afloat if he tried. I got him to hang on while I motored over to his boat where he could climb up the stern ladder. He was in a bad way when I got to him, and I almost didn't hear his mate's calls. It's quite likely he wouldn't have lasted long enough for any other form of help if I hadn't happened to have been on the boat, or had been running a radio or noisy tool.

If he'd been reasonably fit and OK in the water, he could perhaps have caught the dinghy and certainly he could have made the shore about 50m away (but hard to get to due to the current and the angles) without anything but a red face.

Many years ago, a couple of guys died when dinghying out at the Clareville mooring fields in Pittwater. I assume something similar may have happened to them; they ended up in the water and were basically helpless.

Maybe I'm too strict but this idea of letting yourself get to the stage of being unable to swim properly and to get yourself out of the water is weird. It's funny that it's often thought that old square rigger sailors were normally unable to swim - but these days we seem to think it's normal that Australian yachties are unable to swim effectively and to get out of the water from their own boats by themselves. It would feel horrible knowing that if you fell over, you were in serious trouble.

Statistically speaking, we are very unlikely to die because of anything that a PFD, EPIRB or even a personal rescue helicopter overhead would save us from. We're vastly more likely to die of heart issues brought on by lack of fitness, so working on our fitness is not just going to help us in case we end up floating, but also likely to save us from the REAL dangers.

Sorry for the rant, but the emphasis on loading oneself up with protective gear instead of working on being able to swim well (which would be basically a complete cure for almost all dinghy accidents) seems so wrong.

Being able to swim is another reason why I like manual PFD's. Considering an inflated PFD is designed to roll you onto your back and keep your head out of the water, swimming any further than to the liferaft with an inflated pfd is incredibly hard.

This time of the year hypothermia is the big killer. My mate died in August quite a few years ago when his cray boat capsized at the bar. The accident was only about 50 metres from the rocks. He attempted to swim back to the rocks but the water was cold and he apparently suffered from hypothermia fairly quickly and stripped off his clothes. People suffering from hyperthermia apparently have the sensation they are overheated! He is still the only professional fisherman to perish at the bar. Plenty of amateur mariners have but not for a long time.

tired said..

Chris 249 said..

tired said..
That may work in Sydney or Williamstown in Melbourne or Sandy Bay here in Tas but in " remote " locations where there is no-one else around to help you you need a life jacket.

Inflateable or any other suitable in service type.

My son's work on the water every day...apart from RO's...in some appaling weather at times...they have non inflatable life jackets on their work boats...no jacket you don't work.

Anywho...how far can anyone swim fully dressed etc etc in poor weather?
Years ago l had to do fully dressed swims...in a surburban pool fortunately... l had to get out after a few minutes.

We all think we can swim hundreds of metres fully dressed but few people actually can.

Thats why ya need lifejackets.

Stating the bleedin' obvious...obviously

Most people mostly sail in fairly light clothes in summer, and it's not at all hard to get them off if you are prepared.

Most people don't go sailing in poor weather. Like the guy who could have drowned from the mooring near me, they go out in lovely sunshine on nice days.

The fact that few people can actually swim hundreds of metres is no reason at all to think that it's safe to be a poor swimmer or to load yourself up with cumbersome gear that may not help you. THAT is bleedin' obvious.

If there's no one around to help you then sitting in a lifejacket while you die from splash or hypothermia isn't ideal IF the alternative was to be able to swim well enough to get ashore or back on board your boat. And even if you have a lifejacket, if the weather is bad and you can't swim effectively or get back on board then you are likely to be in trouble without help - and if you are loaded down with safety gear and not able to handle yourself in the water or getting aboard then even having someone else around may not be enough.

A Canadian Safe Boating Council/Smart Risk study "showed that between 1991 and 2000, 41% of those who drowned while boating were within 10 meters of shore at the time. An additional 22% were within 10 to 15 meters of shore. A British study from 1977 showed that 55% of open water drownings occurred within 3 meters of safety!!!" The tragedy in Tassie seems to be a classic example of that; swimming a few metres would probably have saved him.

Personally I'd rather make sure I can swim 15 metres easily than die that close to shore. Those figures are affected by cold water shock, but they also show that once you get cold or tired enough, a standard PFD is (as the head of the US Sailing safety committee told me many years ago) is basically just going to help them find your body.

Recent studies are showing that the body adapts easily to cold water shock with training, and that half of the beneficial response survives for 14 months after that. Other studies indicate that the biggest problem with cold water shock is the first minute after you hit the water; if you expect the shock and stay calm, you can get through it.

If we put equal (or higher) priority on being fit enough and practised enough in the water we will not only save ourselves most of the time when we end up in the water, but also vastly improve our chances of not dieing of a heart attack. If, on the other hand, we look to "protective" gear as the answer, we end up at risk in the water and sitting on the couch.

Look at surfers; they (we) survive swimming in breaking 8 foot waves quite easily. Look at ocean swimmers; they can cross the English Channel. Falling in is not a danger to life if you can handle it.

I have no idea what surfers have to do with a discussion on crotch straps on life jackets or cold water immersion when most of them are already wearing wetsuits and or are surrounded by a heap of other surfers and or have their. " safety device " strapped semi permanently attached to their ankle.

I live on the coast, the boat ramp/ marina/ yacht club is a block away...until recently l was there every day...there are plenty of boats...of all types... out and about at this time of year...
Even today...the coldest day of the year so far.

We also know a commercial fisherman who drowned around 2 yrs ago when he fell overboard from his cray boat...he wasn't 15 metres from shore in Sydney Harbour though.

Surfers show that people can survive very, very well in water far rougher than you get into falling out of a dinghy, which was the incident under discussion. Not all surfers use boards or have legropes on them; there are bodysurfers, kitesurfers and windsurfers who go out in the surf in bad conditions and have to swim back alone after getting dumped.

The fact that bodysurfers, who rarely use wetsuits, survive so well in big waves shows that if you're prepared for it, people can survive terrible conditions with no problem and make it out the back through waves or into shore, quite easily. So since we can easily survive swimming in breaking 8' surf for a half an hour or so just while having fun, it's patently obvious that many people who fall from dinghies could also easily survive and be able to get to shore IF they can swim well and aren't loaded down with bulky gear.

Most people sail far less in winter. It's a fact that is shown, for example, in the national statistics about sporting activities. Tassy may well be different but that doesn't change the overall situation.

I have, sadly, known a bunch of people who were killed sailing. That doesn't mean that it's safer to worry about gear and to ignore the issues of swimming ability, physical fitness, and the ability to rescue yourself by knowing how to swim well and re-board your boat and dinghy.

I would recommend we think of a variety of situations to be more precise in the points being made.
In the trip from shore to yacht in the dinghy (like in the article at the start of the thread) - for myself - I find that being ready to swim well, with shorts and tee short and no shoes is a safer proposition than having shoes on, long pants on and a lifejacket on, because I am so much more agile in this way. Even if I have to carry a waterproof bag with my yacht gear and wear a nice wetsuit top and change at the yacht, I reckon I am better off being able to row well, and swim easily for the short trip without the jacket and guff. Also I have a small permanent boarding step glassed onto my rudder and a typical catamaran transom with low steps. If I can swim to the boat I can easily get on because I do it all the time for fun and snorkelling but a lifejacket makes it much harder to board the transom. More and more monos are in the category nowadays as walk through transoms become more common but most of the monos from ages past are very hard to boards from the water - the dinghy or the shore is probably the best option.


I understand that many people will not feel the same as me. I have this feeling from a many decades old skill learnt in being awfully quick at swimming 10 metres or so - to catch a drifting Laser, Windsurfer or capsized Hobie. A fast swim of 10-20 metres can get you back to the safety of the dinghy/board. So for me, being able to go fast for 10-20 metres and then do some agile clambering is a real asset borne out of tens of examples of being left behind by my boat/board growing up in Middle Harbour and fanging after it and jumping back on, usually clad only in a wetsuit. This could be an ex dinghy racer thing in places where the water is never all that cold. (inshore waters of Sydney and Newcastle). Just last year I broke my sailboard's uni joint in Belmont Bay after a spectacular catapult. I "woke" up to find the now free board sailing merrily dead downwind and it took a nice strong pull to catch the darn thing - but it was okay in the full wetty. (Then I had to go back and find the almost sinking rig and paddle ashore)



If I have to wear boots, gloves or long pants then I better have a lifejacket with all associated guff because I am not swimming anywhere fast. So offshore I always wear the inflatable and I would do the same if on a working boat. I tend to pull the crotch strap around sideways and tuck it away around my waist. I will have to swim around for a while and poke it between the legs before I inflate the thing if I ever fall overboard. But it is not worn in the dinghy ride from shore because the oars get stuck in the darn jacket, I might get fined one day and I am happy with that. Ramona's jacket is probably a good idea for all of us in the dinghy or on deck when the conditions get rough. It will keep users warm and it will allow faster motion if in the water. Much safer than a wool jumper. I use something similar (but without the hood) when sea kayaking in colder conditions. I smell a little after but that could just be normal.

tired said..
I have no idea what surfers have to do with a discussion on crotch straps on life jackets or cold water immersion when most of them are already wearing wetsuits and or are surrounded by a heap of other surfers and or have their. " safety device " strapped semi permanently attached to their ankle.

Its pretty obvious, being swim fit is a huge benefit if you find yourself in the water needing to swim. I don't think a life jacket or being fit are mutually exclusive, probably best if you have both.

I got seperated from a windsurfer once and couldn't swim fast enough to catch to it. Breath stroke, side stroke, back stroke and freestyle, tried them all. I guess if I removed the life jacket and harness I may have been able to get it, I opted to keep the life jacket, that allowed me to not worry about drowning and start thinking about sharks. It was probably 20 minutes before another windsurfer came by and gave me a tow to my board which was probably only 50mts away but drifting faster than I could swim.

I always windsurf with a life jacket (flat water) and I always opt for the 50mtr sprint when I fall off to avoid being seperated again. Good to be fit with a life jacket IMHO.

I did some testing of the MOB alarm once , a crew with the wrist fob jumped overboard and we sat back and watched to see what happened. the alarm tripped at about 20mtrs separation (the manual says 50'), then the boat goes into irons. This took another 10 secs or so, in which time the boat travelled another 20 metres @ 5 knots. By the time the speed washed off, you had a 40-50 mtr swim to get back to the boat. And that was with everything working as advertised.
The system had two modes, under sail and under motor. In 'motor' mode the helm goes hard over and the boat does circles . Suffice to say I felt much more comfortable when it was in motor mode! But even then it took a lot of planning and head scratching about how to get back on board. We ended up working out it was much easier without a fully inflated pfd, hence my preference for manual pfd's.