Bit of a long story this one.
Ive been in negotiations with a friend of a friend who has this top hat for sale, but he never advertised it, instead He was always going to sell her to me once my bluebird sold which she did and we sailed her up to the pittwater last weekend. My moorings free and ready for the new boat to go on there, but theres a catch - a big one and its making it impossible for the owner to sell the boat, even though he wants to.
Basically the rightful top hat owner (ill call him John) Bought the boat in Brisbane about 3 years ago. He sailed her down and never put the ownership in his name. He did a bit of a yard period in Woy Woy, then sailed her down to Syd harbour.
He went to Rushcutters bay sailing club where he met people and talked of his adventures on his new tophat and expressed his need to get a mooring or somewhere to put the boat. A rather wealthy person (we'll call them the Rothschilds) piped up and said he had a mooring in Rose Bay, but in order for him to be on this mooring, John would need to put the boat in the Rothschilds name as the mooring is RMS and in the Rothschilds name. The Rothschilds wrote a letter stating that John owned the boat and the rothschilds signed the letter. The boat has never been in Johns name, being transferred from the owner in brisbane to the Rothschilds in Sydney for the sake of John having a mooring in Rose bay and not having to wait. John was based in the east so it suit him - even though the Rothschilds have been charging him 1500 per year- $1000 more than the actual cost of the mooring. They also insisted that he paid cash for this and the only real trail of this partnership is text messages regarding Johns payment for the mooring.
So 2 months ago John contacted the Rothschilds saying he needed to sell the boat and for them to send him the ownership papers signed so he could transfer the boat to me after i paid for it. He's only really spoken to them 1 time in 2 months and in this time they've registered the boat as the rego had lapsed and they did the antifouling. The antifouling and rego was something i was aware of and part of the deal i had with John as i was going to do it myself. THe Rothschilds don't have a key for the boat, so they must have had to tow the boat somewhere to do this. Its weird they just went and did this - especially after being asked to send the papers.
I have had a key for the boat for a few months and have put all my boat stuff from the Bluebird on the top hat prior to my knowledge of any possible hassle with this sale.
The Rothschilds are refusing to answer any of Johns calls, or respond to any messages and have not sent papers. It appears to me that they are attempting to acquire the vessel for free. They would also not want to lose their mooring as there is a long wait list for Rose Bay.
Now maritime have said they'll assist with a stat declaration and get he ownership signed over to me providing that John produces a HIN code which he'd have to get done and the letter from the Rothschilds. Problem is, Johns a bit bloody hopeless and can't find the letter. I wanna get back to sailing and am motivated to sort this and Johns very upset. Very gullible, naive and trusting. Personally i wouldn't have gone into this deal at all for a mooring.
Any ideas people? Apart from the letter, John has text messages and the old owners name, and proof that he deposited a large sum of money into the previous owners account, but he doesn't really have a lot to show the boat is really his. Legally ATM its not!

yeah well thats the thing, why would they? but why would they charge 1500 for a 500 a year mooring?
John is legit. he's had the boat for years. They never maintained the boat until recently after John asked for the papers.
What do you mean by outplayed?
Everything mentioned above is all true to my knowledge. John is a pain in the arse as he doesn't answer his phone and is making the whole thing difficult by his lack of communication.
Ive just told him if this isn't sorted this week, I'm looking for something else…i just really love that boat though….Hes a cabinet maker and made her really nice inside….

So you have the RMS on side?

The RMS will relieve the Rothschilds of the mooring licence quick smart, if they play silly buggers.
Seems the Rothchilds have a lot more to lose....mooring in Rose Bay and possible criminal charges for theft, tax evasion, not welcome at Rushcutters sailing club etc. It is in the best interests of the rothchilds to be obliging & obtain another mooring minder.
Proving this is the tricky part, but if you have something (text messages), you just need a good RMS person to help John to get the ball rolling.

Outlaid.... Spell check. Sorry.

Re, that's why they are rich, yeah but we're talking loose change VS their rep at the CYCA...

BTW they should be pretty easy to find, small place CYCA.

Im not sure what he needs to provide to transfer from your description. Did you say he just needs to provide a hin code number and he can transfer with a Stat dec?

The boat should already have a win plate attached so if thats the case get him to transfer the boat into his name and he needs to use the stat dec to complete the transfer as he doesn't have the previous owners signature. If the boat is older and has been registered for some years then maybe it will first need to have a hin number fitted and if thats the case he can do that himself with a hin provider and just provide a Stat deck as to his ownership also for that, then transfer and then eventually transfer to yourself. Get him to transfer to himself first and then to you.

Registration of a boat in your name does not dictate ownership. Ownership is a legal issue so just because its registered in his mates name doesn't mean his mate has ownership, just that he is the registered user.

Hopefully that makes sense. Im actually a HIN provider all be it in WA but the system is the same i believe. Hope that helps.

Can john get a stat deck from the guy he bought the boar off originally in qld
Then ring the police as tell them its stolen

There is a Mk2 Top Hat for sale on the TopHat web site for $3k. Maybe the " Rothschilds" are looking for a mooring minder and they can buy that one.
BTW $1500/year to lease a mooring is cheap for that part of the Harbour.

Sectorsteve said...
Maritime charge 500 for the mooring. Theyre subleasing it.for 1500

$500 to rms but i think you'll find it is more than that as Rose Bay is a premium area
What about the cost of servicing?
Your mate John has had a pretty deal he would probably still be on a waiting list for a spot. If he didn't try to pull a swifty he wouldn't be in this situation.

jbshack said..

HG02 said..
Can john get a stat deck from the guy he bought the boar off originally in qld
Then ring the police as tell them its stolen

The stat decs when it comes to licensing needs to be in the persons name looking for the transfer. So IE it becomes a legal document if the event the transfer is ever challenged in court by any parties. So getting a stat dec in anyone else's name doesn't help anyway.

Steve im glad your getting it sorted. Its not that hard, but sounds rather daunting when people start mentioning stat decs and trying to explain it. TBH its not the easiest mouthful to get out at the best of times, and i've been involved in them since 2000 when they first became law..

a written receipt from the person he purchased the boat from in Queensland I meant

Years ago I did a favor for a mate that had 13 kids
I bought a damaged Toyota Torago van and repaired it was bought from a Victoria salvage firm by me.
While stripping it down for repair I found several unused syringes hidden though out the van and also a nasty club .
So I ask my next door neighbor(policeman) to do a stolen car check for me as he was in the force just to make sure.
He did that and nothing showed up.
I finished the Torago and gave it to my old mate, that family loved it. A couple of months later the police showed up at my mates place telling him the car was stolen from a hire car company in NSW.
What had happen up in NSW was a person had hired the Torago and never returned it to the hire company. They could not report it stolen till they found the hirer.
When it got registered in Victoria
A few months went past and the hire company found out where the car was at my mates address
The hire company got some body to steel the Tarago from my mates place well that not all corect
The Torago got stolen from my mates home in Victoria .
Mate reported it to Vic police and it showed up a block from where the hire company was located in NSW so my mate lost the car lucky I had a bought it from a salvage dealer which had VACC insurance which we claimed and received money for the value of the repaired Torago.
Hire company kept the Torago but that's when we laughed as the hire company could not register it in NSW nor sell it as it was reported by my mate as stolen in Victoria.
The hire company sent my mate a letter asking to tell VIc Police the Torago was not stolen but because they pinched the car off my mate he said stuff them so the hire company would still have that car for ever not being able to sell it nor register it in NSW or any where As my X wife said Chit happens

What a headache!! I don't envy you that one.

hire company??? youve lost me. theres no hire company in this story.

Sectorsteve said..
hire company??? youve lost me. theres no hire company in this story.

I think he was referring to Hg's post there Sector Steve...

Looks like you are finally making some headway.

Hi Sectorsteve,
I hope it all works out and you get the Tophat. That was my first yacht, it was a mark 1 baker built and very sound.
my current and last boat is also a Baker built, 37 Cape Barren Goose.

For anyone's future reference and perhaps the right way of going about an ownership title is as follows.
My boat was in the RPAYC marina and the owner wasn't a member but there was a stat dec aboard saying 1/64 of the shared ownership was by a club member which gave the boat marina rights, it went on to say that it represented the value of the oil in the engine. So once the transfer of funds and an oil change by me, the boat was mine.
regards Wayne

twodogs1969 said..

Sectorsteve said...
Maritime charge 500 for the mooring. Theyre subleasing it.for 1500

$500 to rms but i think you'll find it is more than that as Rose Bay is a premium area
What about the cost of servicing?
Your mate John has had a pretty deal he would probably still be on a waiting list for a spot. If he didn't try to pull a swifty he wouldn't be in this situation.

How was john pulling a swifty? you mean by renting a mooring off someone in rose bay?
servicing is about 200 tops.
i waited 3 months for a mooring in the harbour, not rose bay, but i wouldnt wann abe in rose bay. horrible place for a mooring i think.

BTW, Commercial operations pay some tiny sum, like a lot less than ordinary mortals, and lease out those same moorings for much more than $1500 per year. Now there is a rip-off. There was a request for submissions on moorings in NSW last year by the State Gov. Anybody heard a response?