Forums > Stand Up Paddle Foiling

JP / NP Board & Foil

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Created by Piros > 9 months ago, 18 Jun 2018
Seajuice
NSW, 424 posts
23 Mar 2019 6:11PM
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No worries Camarillo. I'll take some pics on my first day on shore before or after I take it out.
I am interested how it will feel compared to my other 7ft heavy board.
I am also interested on its paddle speed & if it rides flat with its tail rocker.
I looked at the tail rocker when the board was laying flat on the carpet & it looks like it may need anything from a 3mm to 5mm wedge.
But, it all depends on how the board lays flat on the water with my weight on it for straight paddle speed. It all depends on my feet position & body weight distribution. Meaning will the board paddle faster in a normal SUP stance or in the front foot forward stance to surf stance. With 3 different stances I think would give 3 different paddle speeds due to 3 different angles of the foil.
But more critical in my view is the board deck being horizontal or parallel to flat water surface & my riding comfort whilst flying.
So in view of all this I may just have to adjust my stance & body weight distribution with the board as best as I can over a few rides or sessions before deciding to apply a wedge between the base plate & board.

sweats
33 posts
28 Mar 2019 5:20AM
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Have finally bitten the bullet and upgraded from my Gong foil to a NP Glide large . Looking forward to giving it a go.

bigmtn
7 posts
28 Mar 2019 6:22AM
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sweats said..
Have finally bitten the bullet and upgraded from my Gong foil to a NP Glide large . Looking forward to giving it a go.


Which size gong did you have, and what didn't you like about it? Just curious what improvement you're looking for...

Seajuice
NSW, 424 posts
28 Mar 2019 3:09PM
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For those of you who didn't see the NP foil on my board in my review post. I've put it on here also.
I felt comfortable riding it with a 5mm wedge between foil mount & board. But Piros the more experienced foil boarder says it is not needed.
So I will experiment further in future rides to hopefully use a thinner wedge or none at all.






sweats
33 posts
28 Mar 2019 2:34PM
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bigmtn said..

sweats said..
Have finally bitten the bullet and upgraded from my Gong foil to a NP Glide large . Looking forward to giving it a go.



Which size gong did you have, and what didn't you like about it? Just curious what improvement you're looking for...


I have the L and XXL Gong wings. I recently dropped down in board size and had been noticing some subtle balance issues in chop related to mast flex. A mate has a NP foil and I have been impressed by the build quality and the rigidity of the top plate/mast/fus. Hoping that the NP foil will improve stability and let me drop down to an even shorter board in the future. I need all the help I can get being a 50+ foiler! I will keep the Gong esp the XXL wing.

jt737
QLD, 389 posts
28 Mar 2019 7:30PM
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Have definitely found the sweet spot for all foils on the 7' is fully forward in the tracks, however paddling hard to accelerate and catch the wave, then there's a tendency to bury the nose as you paddle and lean forward.
I really feel that a wedge is the way to go then allowing the foil to be further back in the tracks.

DWF
86 posts
28 Mar 2019 7:14PM
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Hoping that the NP foil will improve stability and let me drop down to an even shorter board in the future.


It will.

You've discovered an industry wide problem. Huge wings mated to masts not stiff enough. It's something that shows up big time with SUP, but not prone, so many are not aware of how bad the issue is.

colas
3192 posts
28 Mar 2019 11:39PM
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DWF said..
You've discovered an industry wide problem. Huge wings mated to masts not stiff enough. It's something that shows up big time with SUP, but not prone, so many are not aware of how bad the issue is.


Is it only an issue with people foiling strapless on a SUP with feet close to the rail?

With straps, I did not experience this problem, but looking at videos, it seemed that some strapless SUPers have their feet very far from the center line, and thus are exerting a lot of torque on the board, and I seemed to notice the mast flexing, which does not seem to happen with people with their feet on the center line (or close to it).

Surf foilers have narrower boards and so have not this problem.

I recall also asking the Gong shaper to put the front strap inserts more towards the rails, as it is definitively easier to paddle a SUP board this way, and he relied me that he did not want it as it made the mast flex, so it tends to confirm this hypothesis.

So, this actually may not be a problem if you have your feet close to the center line.

Camarillo
138 posts
29 Mar 2019 2:39AM
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colas said..

DWF said..
You've discovered an industry wide problem. Huge wings mated to masts not stiff enough. It's something that shows up big time with SUP, but not prone, so many are not aware of how bad the issue is.



Is it only an issue with people foiling strapless on a SUP with feet close to the rail?

With straps, I did not experience this problem, but looking at videos, it seemed that some strapless SUPers have their feet very far from the center line, and thus are exerting a lot of torque on the board, and I seemed to notice the mast flexing, which does not seem to happen with people with their feet on the center line (or close to it).

Surf foilers have narrower boards and so have not this problem.

I recall also asking the Gong shaper to put the front strap inserts more towards the rails, as it is definitively easier to paddle a SUP board this way, and he relied me that he did not want it as it made the mast flex, so it tends to confirm this hypothesis.

So, this actually may not be a problem if you have your feet close to the center line.


This has nothing to do with wrong foot placement!
Perhaps you should try a stiff foil ??

colas
3192 posts
29 Mar 2019 1:50PM
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Camarillo said..
This has nothing to do with wrong foot placement!



Of course it has, that's basic mechanics. Archimedes, etc...

This is the same as beginner that paddle their SUP with their feet far apart: every movement make the board tilt more, as their leverage is greater. And that's why bigger (wider) wings make a foil mast flex more.

That's why windsurfing foils must have much stronger masts, as the feet of the rider are way out on the rail. And also much stronger boxes, as the wing is farther from the mast and is exerting a stronger torque tending to rotate the mast forwards.

Camarillo
138 posts
29 Mar 2019 2:34PM
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colas said..

Camarillo said..
This has nothing to do with wrong foot placement!



Of course it has, that's basic mechanics. Archimedes, etc...

This is the same as beginner that paddle their SUP with their feet far apart: every movement make the board tilt more, as their leverage is greater.

That's why windsurfing foils must have much stronger masts, as the feet of the rider are way out on the rail. And also much stronger boxes, as the wing is farther from the mast and is exerting a stronger torque tending to rotate the mast forwards.


I have a stiff foil and a not so stiff foil, just paddling around the stiffer foil makes the board a lot more stable , when I switch to the not so stiff foil it feels like I am on an inflatable with not enough air no matter where I put my feet.

Of course you can get used to it but I prefer the stiff foil and can get away with a smaller board.

And my JP/NP is strong enough to windsurf with it , I already did and I love to have a foilsetup that is tough as nails!

colas
3192 posts
29 Mar 2019 2:41PM
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I was before in the full carbon Gong mast, which is quite stiff. I could tell instantly when screws get somewhat loose, or when something (mast, tuttle heel, fuz, board) developed cracks. But I saw no difference with the alu mast. (and the L wing. The XXL may be another story)

So, this is why I am asking the question: has anybody using a centered feet position had this issue? I suspect not. But I am asking.

Just like some people demand pads with raised edges: it is because they paddle with their feet on the rail. If you have a proper paddling position, you will not need this (and their drawbacks) on your pads.

sweats
33 posts
29 Mar 2019 2:50PM
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I paddle in a narrow surf stance with my front foot permanently in the front foot strap. My rear foot is only minimally off the centreline. I think I first became aware of flex issues paddling and waiting in the line up with the big wing in chop. It was very subtle as if something was loose or broken. It was still enough to upset my balance. Once up and flying I am unaware of it.

Camarillo
138 posts
29 Mar 2019 3:18PM
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I don't know what you mean by a centered foot position but I paddle around in a narrow surf stance all the time and when I paddle for a wave a go to a bit wider surf stance and off course when I get up on the foil I have my feet on the center line of the board , I learned in my first 3 sessions that my feet should stay there.

toppleover
QLD, 1503 posts
2 Apr 2019 6:37PM
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Hit the reef & have a very small scratch/crack (M front wing tip) that I noticed when in the sun a small amount of water weeps out.
Any tips on how to do/what to use for a DIY repair please.

Piros
QLD, 5442 posts
2 Apr 2019 7:24PM
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Toppleover the NP wings have a really thick layer of carbon on the leading edge , so just key it in with a grinder very carefully or file or sand paper and put a layer or 2 of glass or carbon over it . Put some peel ply over it , let it go off and just sand and wet and dry. Bunnings have a spray enamel cans pretty close to the colour.

Re wobbling mast Colas that's the biggest load of rubbish what you said re foot position and mast wobble . Here's a quick test to see how stiff a mast is . Simply stand on the board in flat calm water with your feet across the board ( square paddle stance ) and rock it rapidly side to side . If you do that with an NP or Axis there is virtually no movement BUT do it with a softer brand mast and you feel it flex and swing side to side like a pendulum. If a mast flexes doing this it will flex the same in the surf regardless of where you put your feet . If you also have a poor connection on the front wing to the fuselage you will feel that wobble as well . It's a simple test that gives Black and White results.

A wobbling mast or front wing not only throws out your balance on the waves but also tears your legs up paddling around constantly correcting against the flexing and makes it harder to get into surf stance paddling for a wave and lowering your wave count. There is 0% advantage in having excessive mast flex or wobble.

Seajuice
NSW, 424 posts
2 Apr 2019 8:43PM
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Yeah. In quiet waters I have noticed my mast to mount bolts had loosened after my first surfs on the foil due to not wanting to overtighten the bolts.
Since then I tighten all bolts properly & give the foil a shake when out of the water to find any looseness. Then like you said Piros. When in flatwater I will wobble the board side to side whilst standing to ensure everything is tight.
Amazing how any looseness will show up.

colas
3192 posts
2 Apr 2019 9:15PM
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Piros said..
If a mast flexes doing this it will flex the same in the surf regardless of where you put your feet


No, and that's basic physics. That's why you must move your feet around more to put a "stiff" (wide) surfboard or SUP on the rail.

I am NOT saying that a flexing mast is good. I said that I could feel immediately, like Seajuice, when something got loose.

Just because somebody tells you "Man, this SUP is totally unstable" does not mean that it will be unstable for you, if he has his feet on the rails but you have your feet closer to the stringer. I was thus asking questions to understand better why this was felt by SUP foilers and not Surf foilers, granted that the distance of the feet from the stringer is often one of the main difference between the two practices.

Camarillo
138 posts
2 Apr 2019 11:27PM
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The main difference between surf foilers and sup foilers belief it or not is that the first are prone on their board and the second are standing up when not flying and lying down an unstable setup doesn't matter...

Youngbreezy
WA, 511 posts
3 Apr 2019 9:58AM
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colas said..
Seems nice, but I would be wary of the fittings: All the torque on the wings are directly leveraging against the bolts threads, which are the only thing keeping the wings in place. This is not very durable, compared to systems where the bolts are not directly resisting the huge forces of the foil: remove the screws from a Go Foil for instance, and the wings stay tight by themselves, the strength is given by the way the fuz locks into the wing part, the bolts just keep them in place. Seems like a 1st generation design, I guess they will have to change it in the next version.


This seems like an appropriate moment to recall that time colas warned us about the rigidity of the NP design

tomooh
168 posts
3 Apr 2019 10:24AM
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I have the np foil as well and although they are solid they are not indestructible. My mate fell onto his wing and the base plate snapped and both bolts bent. My old Takuma base plate had a collar around the mast and would be very hard to bend or break. They have had the np foil set on sale here in nz for 895$ nz. Pretty good value.

Piros
QLD, 5442 posts
3 Apr 2019 1:53PM
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Camarillo said..
The main difference between surf foilers and sup foilers belief it or not is that the first are prone on their board and the second are standing up when not flying and lying down an unstable setup doesn't matter...



No not the case , I've just come back from Fiji and I had both my Sup set up with std JP rig and my prone with the proto JP carbon mast which was quiet flexy. ( new one just released extra layer of carbon) Both were fully rigged in the boat so as conditions changed I'd swap over eg: when tide got to low to paddle on prone I would swap to the Sup or I simply got too tired from the long paddle backs on the prone. Being able to do this you get to notice instantly the difference of mast flex and yes as Camarillo said you don't notice it paddling on the prone but you do notice it straight away on the first turn when you load the mast or initiate the first pump.

Piros
QLD, 5442 posts
3 Apr 2019 1:54PM
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Youngbreezy said..

colas said..
Seems nice, but I would be wary of the fittings: All the torque on the wings are directly leveraging against the bolts threads, which are the only thing keeping the wings in place. This is not very durable, compared to systems where the bolts are not directly resisting the huge forces of the foil: remove the screws from a Go Foil for instance, and the wings stay tight by themselves, the strength is given by the way the fuz locks into the wing part, the bolts just keep them in place. Seems like a 1st generation design, I guess they will have to change it in the next version.



This seems like an appropriate moment to recall that time colas warned us about the rigidity of the NP design


Haha classic

Camarillo
138 posts
3 Apr 2019 1:55PM
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Piros said..

Camarillo said..
The main difference between surf foilers and sup foilers belief it or not is that the first are prone on their board and the second are standing up when not flying and lying down an unstable setup doesn't matter...




No not the case , I've just come back from Fiji and I had both my Sup set up with std JP rig and my prone with the proto JP carbon mast which was quiet flexy. ( new one just released extra layer of carbon) Both were fully rigged in the boat so as conditions changed I'd swap over eg: when tide got to low to paddle on prone I would swap to the Sup or I simply got too tired from the long paddle backs on the prone. Being able to do this you get to notice instantly the difference of mast flex and yes as Camarillo said you don't notice it paddling on the prone but you do notice it straight away on the first turn when you load the mast or initiate the first pump.


Off course the stiffness of the foil is also very important when flying but being a beginner I do not fly 95 % of my TOW
And with a soft foil my sessions are much shorter and I miss more waves due to foil wobble

I really hope NP will make the new carbon mast/plate at least as stiff as the alu combi

And why not make a cabon mast/plate/fuse ala Gofoil?

And please don't make us wait too long for the XL wing!

Fishdude
51 posts
4 Apr 2019 6:36AM
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I know a lighter swing weight of the board (or maybe even wings/fuselage) can help performance.
But would a mast of less weight have any performance benefit if it is has the same flex/strength?

Clamsmasha
WA, 47 posts
4 Apr 2019 8:03AM
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Fishdude said..
I know a lighter swing weight of the board (or maybe even wings/fuselage) can help performance.
But would a mast of less weight have any performance benefit if it is has the same flex/strength?


It all adds up

Piros
QLD, 5442 posts
4 Apr 2019 11:01AM
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It's a good question , is a carbon mast (as an option) worth the extra dollars. Going by the current proto by NP I would say no as I missed the overall stiffness of the Ali mast. The new heavier build production carbon mast is clearing customs as I type so hopefully by the weekend I can test it ans see if it as stiff as the ali one. The wings float so the foil is basically neutrally buoyant with the Ali mast in the water. You do however notice the extra weight doing long walk backs on the beach.

The carbon mast does have a narrower cord so that should give some difference and the only thing I notice with that on the original one it did seem to have better flow in a straight line. Need to remember that NP have been building full carbon wind foil rigs for a few years which have super long mast , so I expect this new production one for Sup/Surf to be something special , I'll keep you posted.

Seajuice
NSW, 424 posts
4 Apr 2019 1:42PM
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Gee I think my new JP foilboard & NP foil is just about half the weight of my older 7ft custom board & China knock off foil. So happy enough with the weight already.
Just another thing. Wouldn't a heavier foil aid stability more so than a light one in choppy water? If so. Then one would be able to use even smaller boards. After all the foil has no weight when up & flying.
So why bother going lighter other than easier portability for a long walk to beach & back like Piros has said.
I did it with a heavy board & foil. Totally exhausting after a good session of foiling. Haaa!

Camarillo
138 posts
4 Apr 2019 1:42PM
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Most important for a carbon mast/plate (and perhaps fuselage) combination is that it is at least as stiff as what we have now , especially with a XXL wing coming.
But less weight (for long walks and nasty beach breaks), less corrosion and no more dissembling and assembling would also be very nice.


Lightweight can also have disadvantages. I tried a Gofoil Maliko yesterday the wing is so buoyant that you have to push it underwater before you can get on the board, and sometimes every second counts... the Gong XXL wing is much heavier and does't have this problem.

The stiffness of the Maliko with the 24,5 mast was very disappointing but Gofoil addressed the problem with a 29,5 mast it seems.

warwickl
NSW, 1156 posts
4 Apr 2019 5:24PM
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Seajuice said..
For those of you who didn't see the NP foil on my board in my review post. I've put it on here also.
I felt comfortable riding it with a 5mm wedge between foil mount & board. But Piros the more experienced foil boarder says it is not needed.
So I will experiment further in future rides to hopefully use a thinner wedge or none at all.







I have observed these in shops and the mast is very wide.
Can you or anyone advise the benefits - is it only for added stiffness or more?



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"JP / NP Board & Foil" started by Piros