Forums > Stand Up Paddle Foiling

Tuttle vs plate

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Created by FRP 5 months ago, 18 Nov 2018
FRP
246 posts
18 Nov 2018 9:35AM
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Hi. I know this has been addressed before but wondering if over the last year of foil progression if there is much of an advantage of one over the other? I am looking at a board with both mounting options and will need to decide on what foil to go with. Cheers Bob

stevet73
NSW, 136 posts
18 Nov 2018 3:12PM
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Great question, and my 2 cents purely from a practical perspective, the track/plate mount seems a no brainer given it allows adjustment of the foil. Can tweak to skill level, rider weight, type of equipment being used and/or foil type, wave type, riding style, and just plain old experimentation (etc).

Hopefully some Tuttle supporters chime in as I'd be genuinely interested to hear how not having the adjustable option would make it a choice....

18 Nov 2018 5:25PM
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Hi FRP, Jimmy Lewis Sup & Prone foil boards now offer both but I only use tuttle box mounts with GoFoil.... Simple to mount, lighter & stronger.... Never need to adjust my positioning of the foil, just my own foot & body positioning, & just use different wings to suit the conditions... My 2 cents worth...

colas
3084 posts
18 Nov 2018 2:37PM
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stevet73 said..
Hopefully some Tuttle supporters chime in as I'd be genuinely interested to hear how not having the adjustable option would make it a choice....


Would you refuse to buy a surfboard because the fin positions are fixed? No, you just move your feet around.

Tuttle boxes are simpler (no playing the adjust-the-nuts game), light and strong. Plate mounts are needed when the board is not thick enough for a tuttle, however.

stevet73
NSW, 136 posts
18 Nov 2018 6:36PM
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Now that's two strong votes for the Tuttle from two very credible commentators....good points....

warwickl
NSW, 1126 posts
18 Nov 2018 7:15PM
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They both have natural skills.

Seajuice
NSW, 362 posts
18 Nov 2018 8:45PM
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Another option with a track mount is you can adjust the angle of the foil by putting a wedge or spacer between the mast & board to level the angle of the tail rocker. Obviously on a board that is modified to accept a foil.
Some commercially made boards have both tuttle & track mounts. In this case I would choose the lightest & best foil that suits your budget & surf conditions.
Check out the 2019 models.

DWF
80 posts
18 Nov 2018 7:45PM
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Different foil brands lift slightly different, so it can be an advantage to adjust the foil location. I'm talking about very small adjustments. The better you become, the more critical you become of having everything adjusted to perfection.

So tracks are my choice.

The sport is advancing too fast to be stuck with a fixed mount for me.

Where Tuttle wins in my view, is a proven mounting system. Maybe 20 years old in windsurfing.

Tracks on the other hand, are new, and some custom board builders are under building that mounting in my opinion. But we wont know for maybe 5-10 years.

Gorgo
VIC, 4134 posts
18 Nov 2018 11:07PM
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A different point of view is that you go through all these changes and adjustments and end up back at the designer's original settings.

For me by far the best is: tuttle mount, all carbon sandwich construction, one piece fuselage and wings.

Lighter. Stronger. More compact. Easier and quicker assembly. It just works all the time. It costs a little more to buy, but it's worth it down the track for pain free ownership.

surfcowboy
25 posts
19 Nov 2018 11:25AM
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Pitching in about the "designer's vision."

Are you saying that the foil designer has a vision that covers the board? That seems unlikely to me since most foils can be used prone, SUP, and in some cases with wind sports. This, and rise of kite and prone foiling where you can't use a tuttle, are the main reasons I'd think that tracks would eventually win out.

You can move your feet of course but answering the comparison to surfboards, more and more modern surfboards support multiple fin setups. Glass on fins, while cool, are pretty rare these days.

I guess time will tell.

colas
3084 posts
19 Nov 2018 2:05PM
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surfcowboy said..
answering the comparison to surfboards, more and more modern surfboards support multiple fin setups. Glass on fins, while cool, are pretty rare these days.



The comparaison is not with glassed fins but between Futures/FCS boxes and US Boxes.

Would you like US Boxes for the side fins on a thruster for adjustability?
Granted, adjustability is desirable, but is it worth the hassle of handling US Boxes?
Note that some twins fins had US boxes, especially in the early days.

Also, tuttle boxes are somewhat adjustable. Since the walls are vertical and not conical, you can use shims on the top of the tuttle head to vary the mast angle.

This said, Naish "one screw" plate system for foils may be the best compromise.

exiled
188 posts
11 Apr 2019 3:47AM
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colas said..
Also, tuttle boxes are somewhat adjustable. Since the walls are vertical and not conical, you can use shims on the top of the tuttle head to vary the mast angle.


Can you explain how that works? I'm having a hard time picturing how you would place the shims.

Scotty Mac
SA, 1838 posts
11 Apr 2019 8:14AM
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Tuttle but I think track is the new VHS!

Clamsmasha
WA, 32 posts
11 Apr 2019 11:26AM
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I'm making my own prone boards and using a 3 wing setup, swapping regularly. I have gone from 6'0" to sub 4'0" in a few months, and I have been blindsided by the major differences in the feel of the board with less size/weight repeatedly. The ideal position has been different every time. Sometimes 1/4" makes a big difference.

As much as I want the simplicity, I don't think I could deal with tuttle...others seem to do alright though and I think it probably has a smaller effect on sup sized craft.

Piros
QLD, 5371 posts
11 Apr 2019 2:05PM
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It's not until you jump on a prone do you release just how critical mast position is , just a 5 to 10mm adjustment can mean the difference to you making it to your feet on a take off or getting repeatedly boosted. Even on my Sup now when I'm taking on bigger sucker waves I tap the mast back a bit to keep the board off the foil on the take off. Shifting your feet doesn't cut , I don't want me feet forward on a steep drop . I did love the convenience and speed of fitting my foil into a Tuttle but none of my boards have Tuttles now it's all tracks.

colas
3084 posts
11 Apr 2019 2:56PM
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exiled said..
Can you explain how that works? I'm having a hard time picturing how you would place the shims.


On the top of the tuttle head or the bottom of the box, a wedged strip of material. It is similar to using a wedge under a plate.

But it only change the mast angle, not is front/aft position. But Tuttle boxes are for high volume boards anyways, not prone foil boards then.

Clamsmasha
WA, 32 posts
11 Apr 2019 4:55PM
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colas said..

exiled said..
Can you explain how that works? I'm having a hard time picturing how you would place the shims.



On the top of the tuttle head or the bottom of the box, a wedged strip of material. It is similar to using a wedge under a plate.

But it only change the mast angle, not is front/aft position. But Tuttle boxes are for high volume boards anyways, not prone foil boards then.


there are plenty of tuttle prone boards out there colas, I'm generally making boards 3.5"-4" thick. Enough for a tuttle.

DWF
80 posts
11 Apr 2019 6:52PM
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The Tuttle box by design, should never be shimmed. The Tuttle uses the front and rear tapered faces to seat the foil tight. Adding a shim to this seating surface could create a point load that cracks the Tuttle cavity.

Then considered many Tuttle foil brands have added flanges to eliminate this possible point load issue with those tapered faces and change the loaded surface to this flange. The Tuttle could be considered a flawed design for foils. It was designed for windsurf fins. If you have ever ridden a foil without this added flange, then you know the freak-out sound of your foil creaking and popping as it seats deeper into the cavity while your flying. Yeah, so many issues, besides no fore and aft adjustment.

If not for GoFoil, the battle would be over, tracks win. Even with the current battle, I'm seeing tracks finally dominate.

And don't even think for a minute having both Tuttle and tracks in a board is a good idea. That option adds a 2 full pounds to a boards weight.

AlexF
168 posts
11 Apr 2019 8:43PM
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DWF said..
The Tuttle box by design, should never be shimmed. The Tuttle uses the front and rear tapered faces to seat the foil tight. Adding a shim to this seating surface could create a point load that cracks the Tuttle cavity.

Then considered many Tuttle foil brands have added flanges to eliminate this possible point load issue with those tapered faces and change the loaded surface to this flange. The Tuttle could be considered a flawed design for foils. It was designed for windsurf fins. If you have ever ridden a foil without this added flange, then you know the freak-out sound of your foil creaking and popping as it seats deeper into the cavity while your flying. Yeah, so many issues, besides no fore and aft adjustment.

If not for GoFoil, the battle would be over, tracks win. Even with the current battle, I'm seeing tracks finally dominate.

And don't even think for a minute having both Tuttle and tracks in a board is a good idea. That option adds a 2 full pounds to a boards weight.



Many true words reg. Tuttle.
The tuttlebox has one more advantage. If build in the board inclined forward you don't have to shim the foil to compensate the rocker.
But this only works with tuttleheads without flange, e. g. GF, NP or Gong.
Slingshot, Takuma or Axis tuttleheads have a flange and couldn't be used in boards build with tuttleboxes the way i descriped.
Alex

Seajuice
NSW, 362 posts
11 Apr 2019 11:03PM
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I am hoping all boards come with both tuttle & track. Well done to the makers who have this option on their boards.
Well done to Naish for their Abracadabra mount system.
But I think there are other systems that can be bolted on a track mount that could lock on any foil quickly & easily. Especially a one piece mast & plate.
At this stage looks like the track mounts are winning as the best all rounder.

colas
3084 posts
12 Apr 2019 2:38PM
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Seajuice said..
I am hoping all boards come with both tuttle & track.


I think DWF is right. Gong for instance is now tracks-only, and advise against adding(*) a tuttle due to the added weight.

(*)on ordering a Gong board you can also have custom jobs performed before the final shipping, such as adding fin boxes, handles, mast rails...

13 Apr 2019 12:00PM
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Jimmy Lewis offers Tuttle & Track mounts in all our sup's & prone boards & they're all still around 5kg so no extra added weight just the option for both...
I've used tracks & Tuttle on all my Sup & Prone boards (now riding 5'11 Sup for surf, 6'5 for downwind & 5'4" Prone) & give me the Tuttle box anytime.... If the board is made correctly from the start & the shaper has allowed for any rocker when fitting the Tuttle box there's no need for wedges or shims & whether the surf is 1 foot or 5 foot you adjust your body position & weight or you have the wrong wing on....
It's not that complicated really...But horses for courses...

13 Apr 2019 12:03PM
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I'm sure Austin Kalama isn't worried about the mm or 2 he could have moved his mast & I bet he's stoked his Tuttle Box & GOFoil are nice & strong....

www.facebook.com/Gofoils/videos/675501026203163/?t=18

balinnz
8 posts
13 Apr 2019 5:52PM
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Jimmy Lewis Boards said..
I'm sure Austin Kalama isn't worried about the mm or 2 he could have moved his mast & I bet he's stoked his Tuttle Box & GOFoil are nice & strong....

www.facebook.com/Gofoils/videos/675501026203163/?t=18


I'm pretty sure Austin is riding with a tuttle to plate adapter in this video, plus the board he is on doesn't look like it has ****loads of thickness for a tuttle box, Im definitly not an advocate of tracks but just sayin

14 Apr 2019 1:37PM
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Actually balinnz, you are correct he does have the adapter plate on in this video but all his boards I've seen whilst foiling with him & Dave tend to have tuttle boxes & Dave's boards do have the thickness for them... But i do stand corrected on this one...

Gofoil Australia
NSW, 38 posts
Tuesday , 16 Apr 2019 2:12PM
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Feedback from Alex at GoFoil re the debate about Tuttle vs Plate Mounts-

Kalama's use both but mostly tuttles. The bigger waves we use the plate adapter with tuttle in it and 29.5" mast and sometimes add in an extension as well.People who really know, use Tuttles like Laitham Kellum in Florida but most surfboard shapers like to use the track system because it is what they know. Track (plate system) is heavier if put in correctly meaning with high density blocks for each track, there is more chance that the boxes leak or fail in the long run. More drag in the water. You do not see the fastest Kite race foils with plates or windsurf fins.The plus for track system is that they work better if the board is thin (like my wake board) and also can move the foil if you do not have it in the right place or are switching foil brands back and forth. In general, Go Foils have a lot of lift and are generally back further than most other brands. For instance a "Lift" Foil needs to be far forward to work properlyWe offer both because you cannot teach an old dog new tricks!!

Mahalo,
Alex AgueraAguera Designs
Alex Aguera Website
Go Foil, Inc.Go Foil Website



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"Tuttle vs plate" started by FRP