Forums > Stand Up Paddle Foiling

Wing Surface Areas

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Created by Casso 4 months ago, 8 Aug 2018
Casso
NSW, 3490 posts
8 Aug 2018 11:48AM
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A bit of analysis of front wing surface areas:

Casso
NSW, 3490 posts
8 Aug 2018 11:50AM
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I read somewhere the Go Foil's area is the model size x 10 in cm2 but this seems way too big compared to others that I know are similar sizes.

Does anybody know the real areas of the Go Foil wings?

Piros
QLD, 5280 posts
8 Aug 2018 1:58PM
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That was my thoughts cm2 but it's not , I even asked Dave Kalama it's just a rough figure that's it. The only ones that are dead set accurate is Axis so the Axis 820 is 1443 cm2 and if you want a good comparison it's roughly around the size of the IWA so 1700 is not accurate for it's size so it's more like 1450 not 1700 , clear as mud and I pretty sure the new Naish X/L is also a bit bigger than the IWA and they have that as 1572

colas
2831 posts
8 Aug 2018 1:15PM
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Be wary that you can measure surface in two ways: the projected surface (the surface if the shadow on a flat surface), and the "developed" one, the surface of the upper skin of the wing, following the curves.

The developed one can be useful, as the more curve the more lift, so it is a way to factor in the shape lift, and thus the surface is a more reliable indicator of the lift.

For instance the Gong Allvator L 80cm wingspan has a projected surface of 1675cm2 and 1925cm2 developed, that is 15% more. In size M, 70cm wingspan, it is 1257 / 1450, 15.4%. We do not have the dimensions of the future 90cm and 100cm wings yet.

I guess Casso figures are for the projected surfaces, but it may be worth asking the manufacturers. Maybe some are using the projected surfaces and other the developed ones?

Add to this the fact that I heard that some manufacturers (I think it was Go foil - or was it slingshot? -, but I cannot find the info) use the total surface of both wing + stab to muddy things more...

Casso
NSW, 3490 posts
8 Aug 2018 4:31PM
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colas said..
Add to this the fact that I heard that some manufacturers (I think it was Go foil - or was it slingshot? -, but I cannot find the info) use the total surface of both wing + stab to muddy things more...

Yeah - that's what I thought might be the case for the Go Foils, i.e. total of both wings.

JB
NSW, 1906 posts
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9 Aug 2018 11:03AM
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Piros said..
That was my thoughts cm2 but it's not , I even asked Dave Kalama it's just a rough figure that's it. The only ones that are dead set accurate is Axis so the Axis 820 is 1443 cm2 and if you want a good comparison it's roughly around the size of the IWA so 1700 is not accurate for it's size so it's more like 1450 not 1700 , clear as mud and I pretty sure the new Naish X/L is also a bit bigger than the IWA and they have that as 1572


Here is pics of the Naish XL vs the GoFoil IWA. Naish XL is a little bigger and way sexier .





Ride safe,

JB

JB
NSW, 1906 posts
Site Sponsor
9 Aug 2018 11:38AM
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FYI, some additional information I just obtained from Nil Rosenblad (Naish Foil Engineer and Designer).

All Naish Wing areas are measured in "Projected Area". Whilst actual surface area is useful for calculating parasitic drag and the like, it is projected are that will have the most importance to a rider. Here's a quick diagram for those unsure of what Projected area is.



Also FYI, our rear/stab areas are as follows,
STD - 280cm2.
XL - 375cm2.

So I guess if you're trying to compare to say GF (assuming they use combined wing area). The Naish XL combo is 1947cm2 (Projected Area).

To help with any other calculations, here is the combined projected areas of all 3 Surf Foils and used rear combos.
- Thrust Surf Medium with Std Rear - 1312cm2
- Thrust Surf Large with Std Rear - 1516cm2
- Thrust Surf XL with Std Rear - 1852cm2
- Thrust Surf XL with XL Rear - 1947cm2

I think looking at this, might make sense of the theory of combined wing projected area of GF?

Enjoy the numbers,

Regards,

JB

JB
NSW, 1906 posts
Site Sponsor
9 Aug 2018 11:44AM
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Here's another chart I found,




This is direct off a google search and not my numbers.

JB

JB
NSW, 1906 posts
Site Sponsor
9 Aug 2018 11:54AM
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Ok, so I started really geeking out with Nils and got some more insight into wing area's. And it's pretty interesting.

Ever wondered (really) why there is angled wings. They actually contribute lift to two different planes. In the Rear wing the projected area in the horizontal plane directly correlates to how much PITCH stability (resistance to 'porpoising') is being added. While the projected area in the vertical plane PLUS the area of the 'rudder' (if there is one) directly correlates to to how much YAW stability (directional stability) is being added.

If you get really 3D, you can understand these angles working to produce flight stability on different planes.

Interesting stuff,

Enjoy,

JB

Piros
QLD, 5280 posts
9 Aug 2018 11:57AM
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Thanks JB that's really good stuff

balinnz
4 posts
9 Aug 2018 12:07PM
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Another chart I found, gofoil areas seem a bit more reasonable in this one


Casso
NSW, 3490 posts
9 Aug 2018 7:08PM
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balinnz said..
Another chart I found, gofoil areas seem a bit more reasonable in this one


Yeah - that seems about right for the GFs. Good find.

toppleover
QLD, 1410 posts
12 Aug 2018 3:51PM
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Does anyone have a chart showing diff foils weights & also some foils float - others sink, what are the pros & cons please?

colas
2831 posts
12 Aug 2018 1:55PM
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I put here for reference what I found on the Zone from one of the Ke Nalu foil team member ("LM"):

I'm 99% sure ours are also projected (they were sized by my 3D design guy). I know when we've attempted to look at others it's projected area we were looking at (& what we found with Naish foils is that we agreed with what they reported...not so much with others. Those that do report their sizing anyway) but honestly I have no idea what others are doing when measuring their own & it does make it confusing because everyone sizes seem to be all over the map. I agree with what you mentioned Nils had to say about the comparison between actual & projected. & also the fact that without everyone measuring the same way it does throw a wrench in the works.


It reminds me of the time where some sailboard sail makers were counting the mast sleeve into the surface of the sail, and not others, a 0.5m2 difference, quite huge.

Piros
QLD, 5280 posts
13 Aug 2018 10:42AM
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toppleover said..
Does anyone have a chart showing diff foils weights & also some foils float - others sink, what are the pros & cons please?


These are just ones I've tried , no order. Plus don't let a sinking foil put you off , it's makes no difference in flight and sometimes an advantage in choppy conditions. I do personally prefer a light floating foil on my prone but doesn't worry me on my Sup.

GF Floats
Axis Floats
Naish Floats
Carbon Innovation Floats
Signature Floats ( the lightest of all )
SlingShot Sinks
Neil Pryde Sinks
Starboard Sinks
Air Rush Sinks
Lift Sinks (but super light)

toppleover
QLD, 1410 posts
18 Aug 2018 6:45PM
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Piros said..

toppleover said..
Does anyone have a chart showing diff foils weights & also some foils float - others sink, what are the pros & cons please?



These are just ones I've tried , no order. Plus don't let a sinking foil put you off , it's makes no difference in flight and sometimes an advantage in choppy conditions. I do personally prefer a light floating foil on my prone but doesn't worry me on my Sup.

GF Floats
Axis Floats
Naish Floats
Carbon Innovation Floats
Signature Floats ( the lightest of all )
SlingShot Sinks
Neil Pryde Sinks
Starboard Sinks
Air Rush Sinks
Lift Sinks (but super light)


Thanks Piros, you dont have the wing surface area of the Axis wings by any chance ?
Also is prone surfing on the Jshapes surf foil ??

Casso
NSW, 3490 posts
18 Aug 2018 10:19PM
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toppleover said..

Thanks Piros, you dont have the wing surface area of the Axis wings by any chance ?
Also is prone surfing on the Jshapes surf foil ??


See the first post in this thread. It has the area of all the Axis wings. One of the good things about this brand is that they print all the sizes, including the projected area, on the actual wing. Wish all the brands did this to save confusion and help with comparison.

toppleover
QLD, 1410 posts
20 Aug 2018 6:08PM
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Casso said..


toppleover said..

Thanks Piros, you dont have the wing surface area of the Axis wings by any chance ?
Also is prone surfing on the Jshapes surf foil ??




See the first post in this thread. It has the area of all the Axis wings. One of the good things about this brand is that they print all the sizes, including the projected area, on the actual wing. Wish all the brands did this to save confusion and help with comparison.



Thanks Casso, my bad - missed that.
According to an OS site, these are the sizes of the NP Glide:
Large 1612cm2
Medium 1225cm2
Small 1032cm2

Gorgo
VIC, 4040 posts
20 Aug 2018 6:57PM
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It's true that manufacturers should publish flat and projected area and aspect ratio and all the other specs. Purely because they know and some of the figures matter to people in some circumstances.

I guess the risk is people will make spreadsheets and start buying gear on numbers rather than actual use.

If you have a foil and you want to measure the area, simply trace the outline of the foil onto graph paper and count the squares. For flat area tape the graph paper onto the wing then trace. For projected area, tape the graph paper flat onto a table, plonk the foil on top, then project the edges of the foil down onto the paper using a square.

likuid
QLD, 309 posts
22 Aug 2018 1:50PM
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Piros said..

toppleover said..
Does anyone have a chart showing diff foils weights & also some foils float - others sink, what are the pros & cons please?



These are just ones I've tried , no order. Plus don't let a sinking foil put you off , it's makes no difference in flight and sometimes an advantage in choppy conditions. I do personally prefer a light floating foil on my prone but doesn't worry me on my Sup.

GF Floats
Axis Floats
Naish Floats
Carbon Innovation Floats
Signature Floats ( the lightest of all )
SlingShot Sinks
Neil Pryde Sinks
Starboard Sinks
Air Rush Sinks
Lift Sinks (but super light)


I actually prefer a heavier foil. Catching lumps I used to think I would want a full carbon foil for riding swells, but over the past year I've realized aluminum works far better. The weight with the aluminum allows you to glide instead of pump all the time

colas
2831 posts
22 Aug 2018 12:30PM
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Gorgo said..
Purely because they know and some of the figures matter to people in some circumstances.


And it is important to be able to try different brands. Imagine not knowing the surface to choose other types of wings: sailboard sails, kite sails, surfboard fins... even if a sail / fin from brand X may have more power than the same surface in brand Y due to the differences in shape, it is an important number.

stevet73
NSW, 118 posts
31 Aug 2018 8:44PM
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Hugely interesting thread. Especially interesting the point raised about weight not being such an issue. Given the radical cost variations (i.e. cheaper but heavier aluminium/carbon commbos vs. Pricey lighter all carbon foils), one certainly should consider which foil is really giving the purchaser value for money....I'm very happy with my aluminium/carbon combo.

..... just hope it never comes off....because it will sink like a stone

colas
2831 posts
31 Aug 2018 9:03PM
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stevet73 said..
Especially interesting the point raised about weight not being such an issue.


Yes, the stiffness of the foil as a whole, and especially the mast and mast/fuz junction is extremely important. Weight is somewhat secondary.

Adrian Roper
91 posts
1 Sep 2018 7:11PM
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colas said..

stevet73 said..
Especially interesting the point raised about weight not being such an issue.



Yes, the stiffness of the foil as a whole, and especially the mast and mast/fuz junction is extremely important. Weight is somewhat secondary.


Congratulations, first person to realise that actually being attached to the front wing might be more useful that being light to carry to the water!

tightlines
WA, 3120 posts
1 Sep 2018 9:36PM
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Adrian Roper said..


colas said..



stevet73 said..
Especially interesting the point raised about weight not being such an issue.





Yes, the stiffness of the foil as a whole, and especially the mast and mast/fuz junction is extremely important. Weight is somewhat secondary.




Congratulations, first person to realise that actually being attached to the front wing might be more useful that being light to carry to the water!



I haven't tried the Axis set up but I like the look of it and mainly because it looks (and reviews seem to confirm) that it is a strong, stiff build, which I would def put in front of weight.
I have been doing a bit of SUP foiling in the surf and am starting to get the hang of it, however, I am looking to get a downwind specific foil for the upcoming season and at nearly 90kgs and not exactly a fit young bloke, I want to make it easy on myself.

The key to that IMO is also the title of this thread 'Wing Surface Area' and it turns out it is hard to compare apples to apples.
I am still undecided which way I am going to go, however, as far as wing surface area goes it seems Go Foil are the leaders with the 280.

I am hoping that when I get the hang of it I should manage on the 200 or even 170 Go Foil (or most of the other brands largest foil, for Axis the 102, Naish Thrust XL, KeNalu 775 etc) but for learning downwinding, for me, the 280 makes sense.

I'd hate to purchase the Axis and find out that I am still struggling on the largest 102 wing on downwind runs.

So Adrian is there any chance that the 120 proto that is kicking around (or something equivalent) might go into production?

As it stands ATM it would seem that learning on a 280 then stepping down is a safer option.

Piros
QLD, 5280 posts
2 Sep 2018 11:11AM
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Yeah agree a lot of people want to buy the Axis 1.2m proto wing for down winding , we fight like cats and dogs for it here when the wind is on. But I do understand Adrian's logic the 1020 is a very good DW wing that handles the chop and speed far better than the 1.2m same goes re the GF 280 & 200. Yes it's easier to learn on the 280 or 1.2m but that learning process is very short and then you have a wing that can't Handel the really epic conditions , so a bit of damed if you do & damed if you don't scenario.

For the record I just ordered the Axis with the 1020 purely for downwind

tightlines
WA, 3120 posts
2 Sep 2018 10:03AM
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Piros said..
Yeah agree a lot of people want to buy the Axis 1.2m proto wing for down winding , we fight like cats and dogs for it here when the wind is on. But I do understand Adrian's logic the 1020 is a very good DW wing that handles the chop and speed far better than the 1.2m same goes re the GF 280 & 200. Yes it's easier to learn on the 280 or 1.2m but that learning process is very short and then you have a wing that can't Handel the really epic conditions , so a bit of damed if you do & damed if you don't scenario.

For the record I just ordered the Axis with the 1020 purely for downwind



Yes it's probably big enough however you have had the opportunity to try the 1020 & heaps of bigger wings, are lighter than me no doubt and are much further along the learning curve than I am.
I don't have that luxury and would have to take a gamble.
Plus it's not always going to be epic conditions

Piros
QLD, 5280 posts
2 Sep 2018 1:26PM
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Yes true we have far from ideal conditions , did my first real DW with Jacko & Marcus both very very good at it , they left me for dead , I'm still learning and was on the GF 280 it was really windy Northerly but ****ty . I found the gaint GF 280 really hard in the cross chop it was stopping me from getting on BUT with practice it does get easier , I would rather something bit smaller so I can balance easier to start the pump .

But agree for bigger guys (I'm 83kg) and marginal conditions biggest is best.

Adrian Roper
91 posts
3 Sep 2018 7:31AM
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tightlines said..

Adrian Roper said..



colas said..




stevet73 said..
Especially interesting the point raised about weight not being such an issue.






Yes, the stiffness of the foil as a whole, and especially the mast and mast/fuz junction is extremely important. Weight is somewhat secondary.





Congratulations, first person to realise that actually being attached to the front wing might be more useful that being light to carry to the water!




I haven't tried the Axis set up but I like the look of it and mainly because it looks (and reviews seem to confirm) that it is a strong, stiff build, which I would def put in front of weight.
I have been doing a bit of SUP foiling in the surf and am starting to get the hang of it, however, I am looking to get a downwind specific foil for the upcoming season and at nearly 90kgs and not exactly a fit young bloke, I want to make it easy on myself.

The key to that IMO is also the title of this thread 'Wing Surface Area' and it turns out it is hard to compare apples to apples.
I am still undecided which way I am going to go, however, as far as wing surface area goes it seems Go Foil are the leaders with the 280.

I am hoping that when I get the hang of it I should manage on the 200 or even 170 Go Foil (or most of the other brands largest foil, for Axis the 102, Naish Thrust XL, KeNalu 775 etc) but for learning downwinding, for me, the 280 makes sense.

I'd hate to purchase the Axis and find out that I am still struggling on the largest 102 wing on downwind runs.

So Adrian is there any chance that the 120 proto that is kicking around (or something equivalent) might go into production?

As it stands ATM it would seem that learning on a 280 then stepping down is a safer option.


Personally I have used the 1.2m prototype wing and feel that our mast starts to become a little flexy at this width. I feel that you really have to have control over your wing or the extra lift becomes a bit useless. That being said I think our mast is quite a bit stiffer than the Go Foil and miles stiffer than all the others, so if as I feel, you agree that the stiffness of the mast is the starting point you don't have any options as they are all too floppy. Just for reference our 19mm mast is 224% stiffer than the current 15mm masts that most supply

Adrian Roper
91 posts
3 Sep 2018 9:08AM
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Piros said..
Yes true we have far from ideal conditions , did my first real DW with Jacko & Marcus both very very good at it , they left me for dead , I'm still learning and was on the GF 280 it was really windy Northerly but ****ty . I found the gaint GF 280 really hard in the cross chop it was stopping me from getting on BUT with practice it does get easier , I would rather something bit smaller so I can balance easier to start the pump .

But agree for bigger guys (I'm 83kg) and marginal conditions biggest is best.


I suspect a lot of your problem was mast flex and not being connected to the front wing, so loosing control or ability to actually drive the big wing. I know that you have less swell to downwind but the guys in Maui use the 820 and 920 only for downwind, never the 1020 as they feel it is too slow and too much lift. Remember that most of the rigs out there use the 15mm kite mast which kind of worked for a 530mm wide wing span. The wider the span the more the mast becomes an issue.

Adrian Roper
91 posts
3 Sep 2018 9:11AM
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tightlines said..

Piros said..
Yeah agree a lot of people want to buy the Axis 1.2m proto wing for down winding , we fight like cats and dogs for it here when the wind is on. But I do understand Adrian's logic the 1020 is a very good DW wing that handles the chop and speed far better than the 1.2m same goes re the GF 280 & 200. Yes it's easier to learn on the 280 or 1.2m but that learning process is very short and then you have a wing that can't Handel the really epic conditions , so a bit of damed if you do & damed if you don't scenario.

For the record I just ordered the Axis with the 1020 purely for downwind




Yes it's probably big enough however you have had the opportunity to try the 1020 & heaps of bigger wings, are lighter than me no doubt and are much further along the learning curve than I am.
I don't have that luxury and would have to take a gamble.
Plus it's not always going to be epic conditions


another way to think about it, get the 1020 AXIS, maybe not big enough for your weight to downwind in small bumps, but at least you have a setup that you can surf on and learn. New wings will come and there will be more options in the future. At least you will have a solid setup to learn to drive on



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"Wing Surface Areas" started by Casso