Board Bag Advice

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boardbumps
boardbumps
NSW
698 posts
NSW, 698 posts
28 Feb 2012 10:41am
A couple of pals of mine have had some horrible problems with board bags and EPS SUP boards over the past few months. One is from Northish QLD and the other pal is a local.

The problem or should I say catastrophe, has been the bubbling of the boards bottom while safely inside the boardbag.
The bubbling occured in-between the straps holding the board to the racks.

This is an old problem. I first came across this in the mid 80's when I was building EPS cored windsurfers.

I had a series of boards bubbling one summer, all the boards were safely in board bags, proper bags padded, with white outer skins or reflective outer skins.
It did not take me too long to figure out that the bags caused the problem.

When I cut open the bottom skin to find out what had actually happened, I found that the EPS had melted. The melted EPS had caused the delamination, this happened to the board INSIDE the boardbag.

You see EPS has a melt point of around 70deg celcius.
The bags were heating the boards to above 70deg Celcius. The bubbling occured betwen the racks and tie downs. The tie downs actually stopped the delamination from spreading to the nose and tail.

The melting I experienced occured under EGlass skins, so there was plenty of resin gluing the glass to the EPS.
( Vacuum bagging occured in the late 80's and early 90's, I had a few delam problems then associated with too dry glass on the EPS side while trying to get them lighter, this can be another problem, cutting open the delam always tells the storey.)

Vacuum bagged PVC hulled boards I eventually found were not immune to this board bag problem. The two boards above are sandwich bottoms, one was PVC the other Bamboo, both had this melting foam problem.

One of the boards was warrantied.
The other board which was supplied with a board as part of the board price was not.
The excuse for the non warrantied board was that there was a ding in the rail and that this had caused the problem, an inexcusable excuse.

If a board is supplied with a boardbag as part of the price of the board and the board was stored inside this boardbag and a delamination occured then warranty has to be applied, no excuse is permisable.

If a board bag is sold with the board as an extra item and advice is given that the boardbag will protect the board and a delamination occurs while the board is inside the boardbag then a warranty will have to be applied, no excuse is permisable.

Solutions.

The best solution,
which I have been using for over 25 years of making and surfing EPS boards is not to USE a board bag while storing your board on the roof of your car.

( storing your board inside your car has similar problems with the added problem of tinted and untinted windows, another storey)

I have never had a delamination problem on any of my personal boards while they have been on the roof of my car out side of a boardbag.

In fact I leave all my boards on the roof of my car at all times to check them out for problems, mostly the heating problem of the sun.

I also only make my boards white on white bottoms, you have to really twist my arm Beerssup, to get me to colour them anything but WHITE.

I don't use a vent plug today, and stopped using vent plugs 20 years ago. The wind surf mast tracks used to come with a vent plug as part of the box. After a few absent minded, forgetting to do up the plug episodes, I decided to not drill a hole thru the vent bottom. I have never had any problems after doing that.

The second best solution with no guarantees that it does work 100% of the time.

Use your board bag,
but when you tie your board on,
MAKE SURE
that there is a bit of, or as much as possible of, tenting between the tie downs. This allows an air gap between the board and the bag and keeps the board cooler.

A simple but not 100% guaranteed solution.
ShireSUP
ShireSUP
NSW
982 posts
NSW, 982 posts
28 Feb 2012 3:57pm
Interesting rod, 84 reads and no comments, personally I know Jack except about $s so you advice is interesting and counter to what the people in the shops will tell you, ie a good board bag will ensure you don't have a problem. But what you say seems to make sense, on holidays I was pretty anal about moving the boards out of the sun or minimising sun exposure when I could and I hadn't purchased bags as yet.......but wouldn't a board reach the 70 deg mark on the roof of a stationary car even if white? Mine get pretty hot
beerssup
beerssup
NSW
513 posts
NSW, 513 posts
28 Feb 2012 4:25pm
Fark mate what an essay you must be as board as me we need some swell.
Makes sense though but probably not a popular read with the retailers flogging the big silver condoms I got one but never use it.
Kenoo
Kenoo
WA
115 posts
WA, 115 posts
28 Feb 2012 1:31pm
I'm the same in regards to not using bags if my boards are on the roof of my car for any length of time.

I think the problem stems from the inside of the bag heating up over time in the sun and the paddling etc of the bag not allowing the heat to escape from within the bag or be cooled down by natural air movement/wind. I know some people who partially open the zip if they're parking for a while but this wouldn't help in the area you had the issue between the straps as this section is effectively sealed off.

Not sure on the warranty side of things though, not sure it's the manufacturers fault if you cook your board, I thought bags were generally sold to protect from general damage. Although if one was sold specifically to protect the board from overheating a claim would be reasonable.
Juddy
Juddy
WA
1103 posts
WA, 1103 posts
28 Feb 2012 3:30pm
Are all boards made from EPS?

I'm demoing some boards at the moment & one brand indicated that the board shouldn't be left "out in the sun" for too long.

Are all boards this susceptable to sun damage or are there some that can be left longer/several hours/almost all day in the sun without delaminating or other problems developing?

Certainly cause for concern when buying a new board...advice welcome.
BomberBrown
BomberBrown
QLD
69 posts
QLD, 69 posts
28 Feb 2012 5:33pm
I just made some covers for my boards out of a stretch sleeve material.Just tied nots in both ends seems to work ok saves scratchs seems to keep cooler and it can breath.
Kenoo
Kenoo
WA
115 posts
WA, 115 posts
28 Feb 2012 3:53pm
Almost all mass produced boards are made from EPS and despite whether they say it or not, leaving them in the sun will overtime (if not sooner) damage the board, same goes for paddles, especially foam core ones. In the end you just have to look after them, I wouldn't leave anything that cost $1000-$2000 in the sun for a long time unless it was specifically designed to be "permanently" in the sun.

As Bomberbrown says, stretch bags can work pretty well, they don't tend to build up the heat in the same way as padded bags, although they don't pad as well either.
weiry
weiry
QLD
5396 posts
QLD, 5396 posts
28 Feb 2012 7:39pm
sounds like a great opportunity for someone to invent a cover to eliminate these problems.
Simondo
Simondo
VIC
8025 posts
VIC, 8025 posts
28 Feb 2012 9:09pm
These are the coolest bags that money can buy !

www.seabreeze.com.au/forums/Surfing/Longboarding/Board-Pornsort-of/
weiry
weiry
QLD
5396 posts
QLD, 5396 posts
28 Feb 2012 8:18pm
Ted's taking orders NOW he'll even make them for nothing he loves sewing
62mac
62mac
WA
24860 posts
WA, 24860 posts
28 Feb 2012 6:22pm
weiry said...

Ted's taking orders NOW he'll even make them for nothing he loves sewing


Yep Ted is the man whoops women who loves to sew and knit
weiry
weiry
QLD
5396 posts
QLD, 5396 posts
28 Feb 2012 8:32pm
Hey breezers its no joke a photo of Ted's lounge room


CMC
CMC
QLD
3954 posts
CMC CMC
QLD, 3954 posts
28 Feb 2012 8:34pm
Kenoo said...

Almost all mass produced boards are made from EPS and despite whether they say it or not, leaving them in the sun will overtime (if not sooner) damage the board, same goes for paddles, especially foam core ones. In the end you just have to look after them, I wouldn't leave anything that cost $1000-$2000 in the sun for a long time unless it was specifically designed to be "permanently" in the sun.

As Bomberbrown says, stretch bags can work pretty well, they don't tend to build up the heat in the same way as padded bags, although they don't pad as well either.


While this is true I would suggest to you that there is a difference between some EPS boards and others, hand lammed, vacuumed, veneered etc.

The difference in the EPS comes from the way it is produced, some cut from a big block which means that the beads are not fused very well and there is a lot of air between them.. More air to expand, lesser integrity, more delam.

Other boards have pressure moulded EPS Cores that are near on 100% air tight. You can suck them and not get any air from the unglassed core, if they are dinged they will suck very little water. They are stronger, easier to machine and shape.

The weaker EPS is still fine to use but depends upon the skill of the glasser to make the board have strength and durability. Bad glassing, weak blank = Bad quality.
weiry
weiry
QLD
5396 posts
QLD, 5396 posts
28 Feb 2012 8:37pm
thanks CMC your the man
62mac
62mac
WA
24860 posts
WA, 24860 posts
28 Feb 2012 6:51pm
weiry said...

Hey breezers its no joke a photo of Ted's lounge room





Looks like the Naish factory
Kenoo
Kenoo
WA
115 posts
WA, 115 posts
28 Feb 2012 7:00pm
Completely agree CMC, and as you say things like vacuuming plus sandwich materials e.g. wood, bamboo, pvc foams etc can also go a long way towards stopping delam, by stiffening the layup achieving a more effective bond and can also help in insulating the core from the exterior surface temperature.
weiry
weiry
QLD
5396 posts
QLD, 5396 posts
28 Feb 2012 9:23pm
62mac said...

weiry said...

Hey breezers its no joke a photo of Ted's lounge room





Looks like the Naish factory


Nah the Naish factory is bigger mac
boardbumps
boardbumps
NSW
698 posts
NSW, 698 posts
28 Feb 2012 10:32pm
I can only comment on block foam as that is the only type of EPS foam I have ever used.
So all my comments are about blanks hand cut from a big block of foam and to imply that block foam is inferior in some way is a gross misrepresentation of the product.

I will repeat my self here.

I have found that for over 25 years of epoxy and eps production the only problems I have encountered have been caused by board bags.

I leave all my SUP, sailboards, surfboards, SLSA boards, Wave SKis on the roof of my car in the middle of summer and have never had a problem.

The current board on station on the roof of my car is my 12'6, it has a white bottom with yellow chines, it has been on top for over a week now.

In the end I am trying to give you good people some hard won knowledge from my years of experience...take it or leave it.

Rod
Ted the Kiwi
Ted the Kiwi
NSW
14256 posts
NSW, 14256 posts
28 Feb 2012 10:46pm
62mac said...

weiry said...

Ted's taking orders NOW he'll even make them for nothing he loves sewing


Yep Ted is the man whoops women who loves to sew and knit


I saw that Mac!!!
boardbumps
boardbumps
NSW
698 posts
NSW, 698 posts
28 Feb 2012 10:48pm
This is in reply to CMC,
if you read my tale again, and carefully, you will read that I have spoken about MELTED FOAM caused by over heating of boards stored in board bags.

Not about supposed air expansion in the core or blank of a board which has been cut from a block of EPS foam.
If this were true, then all the boards that I have made over the years would have delaminated if I had left them on the roof of my car.

Please do not SLANDER block EPS foam, it is a very good product and I do not have a problem with it.

Moulded eps foam blanks are expsensive and a waste of foam as there is too much tailings, they are a product that has only recently become available due to the demise of Clarke Foam in the USA.

boardbumps
boardbumps
NSW
698 posts
NSW, 698 posts
28 Feb 2012 10:53pm
Sorry CMC, but you have really got my goat with your ill informed opinions.
Please stop speaking out your ...

You have totally confused a couple of good folks reading this tale on this forum
CMC
CMC
QLD
3954 posts
CMC CMC
QLD, 3954 posts
28 Feb 2012 10:03pm
boardbumps said...

This is in reply to CMC,
if you read my tale again, and carefully, you will read that I have spoken about MELTED FOAM caused by over heating of boards stored in board bags.

Not about supposed air expansion in the core or blank of a board which has been cut from a block of EPS foam.
If this were true, then all the boards that I have made over the years would have delaminated if I had left them on the roof of my car.

Please do not SLANDER block EPS foam, it is a very good product and I do not have a problem with it.

Moulded eps foam blanks are expsensive and a waste of foam as there is too much tailings, they are a product that has only recently become available due to the demise of Clarke Foam in the USA.



If you read my tale again and clearly you will notice that I mention that block foam is Ok to use. If you have been glassing epoxy for so long you will no doubt have the process dialed and have no problems.

You will also notice that I replied to another post within your thread, not actually to you.

As you no doubt know also, there is good and bad block foam. Myself I have two boards both made with block foam, local customs. So you might say I was far from Slandering block foam. It's actually a pretty silly topic don't you think?

The post I replied to mentioned mass produced boards made from EPS. There are countless examples of bad product mentioned here on this site. I commented that some boards are made from pressure moulded EPS and the way these are produced (I know a little about this as well....) there is far less wastage compared to block. There is no doubt that the beads are more fused in this way. I would compare it to blowing a square PU blank that is cut into shape rather than a close tolerance EPS blank that 1/4" is removed from. Far less wastage.

Sorry if you thought I was attacking your knowledge on the topic, I was providing an insight into foam quality that is no doubt a factor when it comes to problems like these..

P.S I have sold over 150,000 blanks in the past 3 years so I kind of have my head around the process. A disclaimer here is that that does include moulded EPS. Not SUP though.

I will once again reiterate though, if the glassing is good it doesn't really even matter.
Simondo
Simondo
VIC
8025 posts
VIC, 8025 posts
28 Feb 2012 11:12pm
boardbumps said...



The current board on station on the roof of my car is my 12'6, it has a white bottom with yellow chines, it has been on top for over a week now.


Rod



There it is, that's the problem.
Simondo
Simondo
VIC
8025 posts
VIC, 8025 posts
28 Feb 2012 11:14pm
boardbumps said...


In the end I am trying to give you good people some hard won knowledge from my years of experience...take it or leave it.

Rod


Did you mean to say, "take it off your roof racks, and leave it in the cool shade of a concrete and brick garage !

Don't take those last 2 comments too seriously Rod.... Some of us like to have some fun on here, without 120% seriousness....

Rob Machado coined the phrase "foam is your friend".
Wouldn't this phrase be true for you... "shade is your friend".

Scotty88
Scotty88
4214 posts
4214 posts
28 Feb 2012 8:54pm
boardbumps said...

A couple of pals of mine have had some horrible problems with board bags and EPS SUP boards over the past few months. One is from Northish QLD and the other pal is a local.

The problem or should I say catastrophe, has been the bubbling of the boards bottom while safely inside the boardbag.
The bubbling occured in-between the straps holding the board to the racks.

This is an old problem. I first came across this in the mid 80's when I was building EPS cored windsurfers.

I had a series of boards bubbling one summer, all the boards were safely in board bags, proper bags padded, with white outer skins or reflective outer skins.
It did not take me too long to figure out that the bags caused the problem.

When I cut open the bottom skin to find out what had actually happened, I found that the EPS had melted. The melted EPS had caused the delamination, this happened to the board INSIDE the boardbag.

You see EPS has a melt point of around 70deg celcius.
The bags were heating the boards to above 70deg Celcius. The bubbling occured betwen the racks and tie downs. The tie downs actually stopped the delamination from spreading to the nose and tail.

The melting I experienced occured under EGlass skins, so there was plenty of resin gluing the glass to the EPS.
( Vacuum bagging occured in the late 80's and early 90's, I had a few delam problems then associated with too dry glass on the EPS side while trying to get them lighter, this can be another problem, cutting open the delam always tells the storey.)

Vacuum bagged PVC hulled boards I eventually found were not immune to this board bag problem. The two boards above are sandwich bottoms, one was PVC the other Bamboo, both had this melting foam problem.

One of the boards was warrantied.
The other board which was supplied with a board as part of the board price was not.
The excuse for the non warrantied board was that there was a ding in the rail and that this had caused the problem, an inexcusable excuse.

If a board is supplied with a boardbag as part of the price of the board and the board was stored inside this boardbag and a delamination occured then warranty has to be applied, no excuse is permisable.

If a board bag is sold with the board as an extra item and advice is given that the boardbag will protect the board and a delamination occurs while the board is inside the boardbag then a warranty will have to be applied, no excuse is permisable.

Solutions.

The best solution,
which I have been using for over 25 years of making and surfing EPS boards is not to USE a board bag while storing your board on the roof of your car.

( storing your board inside your car has similar problems with the added problem of tinted and untinted windows, another storey)

I have never had a delamination problem on any of my personal boards while they have been on the roof of my car out side of a boardbag.

In fact I leave all my boards on the roof of my car at all times to check them out for problems, mostly the heating problem of the sun.

I also only make my boards white on white bottoms, you have to really twist my arm Beerssup, to get me to colour them anything but WHITE.

I don't use a vent plug today, and stopped using vent plugs 20 years ago. The wind surf mast tracks used to come with a vent plug as part of the box. After a few absent minded, forgetting to do up the plug episodes, I decided to not drill a hole thru the vent bottom. I have never had any problems after doing that.

The second best solution with no guarantees that it does work 100% of the time.

Use your board bag,
but when you tie your board on,
MAKE SURE
that there is a bit of, or as much as possible of, tenting between the tie downs. This allows an air gap between the board and the bag and keeps the board cooler.

A simple but not 100% guaranteed solution.


Please limit to 50 words or less. Attention span not great.
boardbumps
boardbumps
NSW
698 posts
NSW, 698 posts
29 Feb 2012 9:34am
CMC said...

Kenoo said...

Almost all mass produced boards are made from EPS and despite whether they say it or not, leaving them in the sun will overtime (if not sooner) damage the board, same goes for paddles, especially foam core ones. In the end you just have to look after them, I wouldn't leave anything that cost $1000-$2000 in the sun for a long time unless it was specifically designed to be "permanently" in the sun.

As Bomberbrown says, stretch bags can work pretty well, they don't tend to build up the heat in the same way as padded bags, although they don't pad as well either.


While this is true I would suggest to you that there is a difference between some EPS boards and others, hand lammed, vacuumed, veneered etc.

The difference in the EPS comes from the way it is produced, some cut from a big block which means that the beads are not fused very well and there is a lot of air between them.. More air to expand, lesser integrity, more delam.

Other boards have pressure moulded EPS Cores that are near on 100% air tight. You can suck them and not get any air from the unglassed core, if they are dinged they will suck very little water. They are stronger, easier to machine and shape.

The weaker EPS is still fine to use but depends upon the skill of the glasser to make the board have strength and durability. Bad glassing, weak blank = Bad quality.


CMC when was the last time that you visited an EPS block manufacturing plant in AUS?

I was picking up a block from mine just before xmas.
They showed me their newest machine, and told me after my asking that most plants in Aus now have this machine to mould big blocks.

The walls on this machine are 600mm thick and that the new process uses vacuum to draw the steam into the block almost instantly for nearly complete fusion.

Rather than the old method of thin walled web braced aluminium boxes that used pressure to inject steam. The only problem with this method happened when too much bead was inserted to make the denser foams, middle to light weight foams were always ok and have been for over 10 years.

If you supply EPS foam to the building industry in Aus as most EPS manufacturers do then you have to build your foam to comply to a code of practice.

The test for this code is that you have to have a litre of foam immersed in water for 12 months. When the foam is retrieved it is then weighed and must have absorbed less than 1% of its weight in water to pass the code of practice.

Does this sound like a weaker eps foam with non fused beads leaving large air gaps between the beads so that water can be absorbed.

I now have dings open, not repaired to test for water absorbsion. I weigh my boards regularly and have found no weight gain. This is using my AUS EPS foam suppliers block foam.
There is a little water gain but only localised to the fracture zone form the ding impact. You can tell if a little water has been absorbed as it leaks out again.

I leave my boards on top of my car in all weather conditions so that I know what is going to happen to them.

I never suggested that owners do the same.


My small shed faces north with a hedge on the northern fence to block the wind, the sun beats down onto the concrete drive that I park on all year round. I have never had any problems with my boards in the 6 years that I have been at this adress.


If you tent your bag in between the tie downs this will reduce but not eliminate the melting problem caused by bags.
If the bottom of your board is not completely white on white, but has logos, colour or some form of graphic then you could have a problem with prolonged sun exposure.
I wont even go into the innuendo of that general statement about bad glassig weak blank.

boardbumps
boardbumps
NSW
698 posts
NSW, 698 posts
29 Feb 2012 9:39am
Simondo I can give you the phone number of supplier of stainless bolts.
CMC
CMC
QLD
3954 posts
CMC CMC
QLD, 3954 posts
29 Feb 2012 8:42am
As mentioned, I was referring to the post regarding mass produced boards. I have seen the foam they use in China and I guarantee that your 1% example (which is great to know also, thanks) would not pass on this stuff.

You use good foam obviously, your boards look well made.

If I could summarize what I was trying to get at perhaps was that you best buying boards from quality manufacturers. If you are one, I was not talking about you.

Best of luck with it all Rod.

caltrano
caltrano
VIC
87 posts
VIC, 87 posts
29 Feb 2012 11:57am
Thanks for the advice re board bags - I use them to transit the boards the 10 - 20min depending on the break I am traveling too. Otherwise boards are in the water or in the shed - I will not leave the bags on in the shed in future.

DavidJohn
DavidJohn
VIC
17570 posts
VIC, 17570 posts
29 Feb 2012 12:05pm
IMO board bags do alot more good than they do bad.. I often tell people to leave them slightly unzipped because they can be like a foil wrapped potatoe and cook a board is left in the sun in a windless location.. I've used board bags for years and never had one issue.

Naish stuffed up with their early bags (years ago) because they had the silver reflctive side on the wrong side.. Because in Hawaii they like to transport their boards fin down.. Maybe they should have had a fin slot on both sides..

DJ

62mac
62mac
WA
24860 posts
WA, 24860 posts
29 Feb 2012 10:05am
weiry said...

thanks CMC your the man


^knows nothing according to boardbumps

and whats with the stainless steal bolts for Simondo


PS the real man is above on the left
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