I was looking at the new JP windsurfing boards today and thinking why can't the make their SUP boards this light and this strong.. Then I saw the price tag.

Well over three grand for a board that's so much smaller than a SUP board so I guess if they're going to make them stronger and lighter they'll cost much more.

I could really notice the lack of weight with my new SnowBoard but being noticable and being nessassary are two different things.

DJ

DJ, Have you seen the prices on the JP SUP's? I rekon the weight will be pretty good, maybe even market leading.

Greenroom, I agree. SUPs don't need to be as strong as a sailboard so they don't need to be fully laminated/reinforced etc like sailboards so although SUP's are generally a bit bigger weight should still be very similar.

Goochi,
Does a lighter board make a diference to:
1. surf performance? YES
2. Strength? Not really known yet. Most would say lighter means weaker, but that doesn't mean it's too weak.

1. Are SUPs made heavier ie - significantly heavier than a sailboard of a similar size for strength? - NO, over manufacturing and differrent manufacturing techniques that will keep costs down.
2. Are SUPs heavier for wave performance - Not at all, more so for durability. edit... Performance SUP's on the market are all manufactured the same way as their 11ft and 12ft big brothers (new Naish's are an exception).

Goochi said...

Hi Guys
I wanted to start a new thread under this title because previous threads on board weight are under the title of "Hernia", "LSD prototype" and numerous others I can't find when looking back thru old posts to research this topic.

A. Question to those who have boards under 8kgs (not theorists, people that actually own them and have compared to heavy boards!)

Does a lighter board make a diference to:
1. surf performance? Yes in certain wave and wind conditions
2. Strength? You dont get something for nothing generally they will be weaker unless carbon etc is used.

I own a popular SUP brand board that has been damaged in the surf - when visiting the local repair shop I was fascinated that there were several boards of the same brand damaged in exactly the same spot.

B. Question for local SUP board makers - professional and amateur.

1. Are SUPs made heavier ie - significantly heavier than a sailboard of a similar size for strength? (most production boards seem to range from 10-14kg in the 9'6 to 12' range) Production boards are made stronger to reduce damage and warantee claims there si no question about that. Does that make them heavier, yes at this point it does. I have seen lighter boards that you can and will damage just strapping them to your roof.

2. Are SUPs heavier for wave performance (which OGSUP mentioned on a previous post) The heavier boards can and will with the right bottom shape draw themselves into a wave easier and will provide momentum to connect sections and IMHO work better in large waves and very windy conditions, then the weight assists in stability in these conditions.

NB - I am not dismissing this particular board manufacturer. Just wondering why we ride boards significantly heavier than their sailboard counter parts and it doesn't seem to be necessarily stronger.

Cheers

Weight, shmeight! I agree a board under 8kg is easier to carry to the beach etc, I would be very surprised if the average person could really tell the difference between 6kg + 8kg board when surfing. You gotta remember that extra 2kg is distributed accross the entire board! The only way to try and see if you maybe could by chance possibly kinda notice weight difference would be to have same board shape, length, volume etc in both weights on the same day, same waves etc and swap half way through session. You can't compare one design against another in different weights on different days and then make a call which surfed better based on weight, too many other variables IMHO
My 2 cents worth!

Interesting article here about 'Is heavy better?'.. http://www.mylocallineup.com/index.php?option=com_myblog&show=Jesse-Timms-Obsession-Is-Heavy-Better-.html&Itemid=112

DJ

Hey DJ......I'm off to the "office" now....prk is 3' or 4' low tide, 20knts side off........5 frigin deg wind chill, rain, hail
(I'd rather this office than the one some people have to go to)
Hope to find some better waves than yesterday to try the green flame.
Cheers
Dean

Yeah when I'm talking about weight I mean pop outs in the 10kg to 13kg mark.
Besides Naish and a few Starboards all other production boards fit into this category.

Comparing 5kg to 7kg boards with 10kg+ boards would be noticable to most on this forum.

No doubt a lighter board feels heaps 'livelier' from my limited experience with em. As has been said, coming off the lip or any sort of turn that involves rotating the nose more quickly feels so much better on the lighter board. Big surf is a different story.

Strengthwise I reckon they will hold up as long as they are built properly. I haven't heard any negative stuff about the DCs, Surfshapes or Laguna's and LSDs seem to be holding up so I guess there's your anwser about the strength.

Warranty at the end of the day doesn't really exist with surfboards.
I'm pretty sure when we all talk about light weight SUP's we are talking about performance surf SUP's and warranty should be similar to surfboards.

The problem I can see with SUP manufacturing at the moment is they are built strong, but when they get a beating they flex to a point that it makes them delaminate. I'm only commenting on 2 particular brands but I'm guessing construction is similar with the pop outs.

dtm said...

lighter boards surf heaps better you can throw them around heaps easier and quicker and they are super responsive on the wave and if glassed right they are just as strong if not stronger ,as production pop outs are made over seas by people getting paid 5cents and hour they arnt pofesional glassers and really couldnt give a rats weather a pop out is done correctly or not if you suport a local shaper who cares about his product the boards will be done with skill care and experience and the board will go better in the surf and be stronger . If you look at surfboards 1percent of people ride pop outs and 99% ride customs im finding hard to believe that so many people keep riding heavy pop outs when you can now source customs and surport the australian market and the australian dollar and workforce.I understand a pop out is good for a first board to start on i myself have been there but once you progress go to a custom you will be way more impressed

I am all for promoting out local shapers but seriously my friend you need to get your facts straight before you start preaching. I don't know the exact percentage breakdown of surfboard ownership but you would probably find that custom boards account for the least amount of sales and off the rack pu and imported pop outs share the rest of the market. Also the average pop out as you call it is lighter on average than most off the rack and custom boards - have you ever heard words like Surftech and Tuflite and GSI and Boardworks etc ?? All these boards are LIGHT and STRONG and POPULAR !!
I personally own both - locally made and imported "pop out" sups. I love them both and speak highly of both brands and always will but I never criticise either because they both have their place and following in the market place. The other thing you have to prepare for is that one day some of our fantastic local shapers will be so popular and will not be able to keep up the demand for their boards and like so many of the great shapers in history, they will look to companies like surftech and the like to help them out by producing stock for them to meet the worldwide demand for the product. You don't have to like the idea, but it happens. I think we need to get of our high horses a bit and start buying the boards that suit us and that we can afford and support the industry as a whole.

STNDUP said...

The eps is probably M with a .6mm jarrah veneer between 1 +2 layers of 6oz & kinetics epoxy.
Photos can lie, are you sure they ard dints?
You would have to know the history of the board to pass judgement.
It has a finbox/ mast track so has probably been used for many hours as a sailboard.

Dean, I dont know the history of it but I am pretty sure those would be dents as the edges around them look pretty sharp. As far as windsurfing, I dont know where the foot placements would go as I dont windsurf.

I'm just always concerned about "density" as I am 98kgs and have a small foot! Now, you guys can laugh if you want-but I did a pretty serious hike from Chamonix to Zermatt some time ago and most of this was on snow and ice. I definitely struggled more due to having the same mass as others, but on a smaller area where I was constantly punching my feet through the snow. Others which larger feet, but similar weights just seemed to motor on through.

I've just replaced the deckpad on my Naish 11'4 (YES AGAIN) and it certainly had some dents under the pad. I can only imagine what they would have been like had I used wax-like the stonker picture.

Thanks as always-Ronnie

Hi Ronnie,
Yes I know what your talking about in relation to small feet point loading, it is something to consider when I make a board for someone. The guy I'm doing one for at the moment weighs 125kg the board has a 5mm titanium deck patch....joshin....It will have a double bias carbon to resist dints.
Cheers
Dean
Ps I think that stonker is Lenny's board, janjuc, it's had heaps of use.

Gorgo said...

Bnaccas said...
....
I'm pretty sure when we all talk about light weight SUP's we are talking about performance surf SUP's and warranty should be similar to surfboards.

...

"Lightweight" would be applicable to performance SUPs and in that context I think all bets are off. Performance SUPs should be built so they give best performance for the market they are aimed at. If lightweight and strength are incompatible then that's the price you pay for chasing performance etc.

I am more interested in "lighter" SUPs in moderate performance and allround boards. The aim is lighter boards to make SUP more fun and easier to do.

I'm big and pretty fit and I find it tedious to lug a big fat SUP around, to have to find parking a short walk from the beach, and to get the board back to the car after a big session. I just want a stable, reasonable performance board that's no heavier than 10kg and costs no more than $2000.

This is the feeling I am getting from most of you guys. That light weight SUP (dropping from 12kg to 8kg - not 8kg to 6kg) equals slightly improved performance on the wave (it doesn't detract from it). DJ's link on weight (for longboards) confirmed this. It would seem the 10kg+ production SUPs are a combination of affordable construction techniques for appropriate strength.

Is a light board less strong? - from the sounds of it a light board can be weak or strong, it depends on the construction technique and materials which is where the expense is at.

I feel, having ridden a brand new production SUP and having it repaired twice for breakage across the nose (this was not deemed a warranty issue ) that a heavy board simply for strength isn't a factor, it is just heavy due to the construction to make a cheaper board.

I am now considering a better made board and wouldn't mind it lighter as Gorgo points out. Nothing extreme - just something that is less than 10kg ....so I don't get a hernia!. SUPs aren't cheap as we know - but if a light board with affordable construction techniques is going to last as long as heavier board, it feels right for me.

Thanks for the great expert input - it is an interesting variable.
cheers

I rekon you have got the right things out of this topic Goochi.
Your last post is pretty spot on.

DTM/Billboard, the definition of surfboards - pop-outs, customs, rack boards, hand shaped, machine shaped etc is a topic in itself. I wouldn't worry about it.

Thats is what I think it is as well. A build up and smudging of dirty wax. My mate Jamie
has a Stoker as well and he surf a lot and reasonable hard and his board is still solid as
a rock!

ive had a lot of light boards and im also surfing a naish 8' 10" too. the naish isn't a heavyweight, but i wouldn't call light either. i thing i have noticed is when you throw it up for floater or closeout it seems to stay under my feet better and not get swept away. could be the ability of the board maybe. even so, i can't help thinking what if it was lighter
lacey