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Kawana Lake Time Trials March 21

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Created by Swanie > 9 months ago, 21 Mar 2013
Swanie
QLD, 1372 posts
21 Mar 2013 9:28PM
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Fantastic conditions tonight with a great turn out. The wind was a light easterly and some fantastic PB's were set (7 in all). The issue of wash riding at a time trial was raised again and clarification will be advised next week.

I will be away camping next week but will be back the week after. If someone can pick up PT you will have a time keeper.

A number of paddlers elected to do the half lake (2.24km) and here are their times:

John Townsend , 14 Starboard Allstar: 14.37
Wendy, 9'2" Fanatic: 22.19
Sue Madigan, 12'6 Starboard Race: 25.57
Natalie Persal, 12'6" Starboard Alstar: 27.18

Here are the times from tonight's time trials. Some massive PB's and others narrowly missed theirs.
Cozzette took 6 minutes off her first attempt.
David took off over 30 seconds.
Alison took off more then 20 seconds and just pipped Di by 1 second. Look forward to next week on this.
Jonsey smashed 53 seconds off his best.
Matt keeps moving up the charts with 36 seconds off his best.
Jon did a PB as his first night and an impressive first go as well.
Steve the man of steel just missed his PB by 7 seconds.
Marcel dropped more that a whole minute off his PB.
Ryan scrapped another 2 seconds off his best on this new weapon of a Hobie Raw board.
Trevor missed his PB by 5 seconds but not bad after a massive foot infection.

Tonight's times



Updated Leader Board







PeterP
717 posts
21 Mar 2013 7:45PM
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Great times! And very close!

Look forward to seeing what you come up wrt wash riding. We also call ours time-trials and our only rule is you can't impede a paddler by blocking his access to put paddle in water. Seeing you send the guys off a the same time is not really a time-trial so not sure how you'd make a rule about it.

I'm in favour of wash-riding, mainly because I can leach off the youngsters and also because its a great way to hone the skill for the real races.

skebstebamal
QLD, 577 posts
21 Mar 2013 9:55PM
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Give me a break!! 27.01 fook me, surely stopping 2 seconds earlier wouldnt have hurt anyone

gregc
QLD, 1297 posts
21 Mar 2013 10:06PM
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Holy crap that is some fast times

TrevT
QLD, 134 posts
21 Mar 2013 10:06PM
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Here are some pics from the lake today Cheers Trev










RJK
QLD, 621 posts
21 Mar 2013 10:06PM
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PeterP said...
Great times! And very close!

Look forward to seeing what you come up wrt wash riding. We also call ours time-trials and our only rule is you can't impede a paddler by blocking his access to put paddle in water. Seeing you send the guys off a the same time is not really a time-trial so not sure how you'd make a rule about it.

I'm in favour of wash-riding, mainly because I can leach off the youngsters and also because its a great way to hone the skill for the real races.


Very close tonight as two paddlers decided to wash ride most of the way (and one grom the entire way) then sprint past in the last 1/8 of the course.

I don't know why this is a repeated issue as we continually specify a time trial is against the clock so wash riding Is illegal and dooshbaggy. In a race, wash ride for as long as your conscience allows however dont claim your time in a timetrial if you cheat!!

JonesySUP
QLD, 869 posts
21 Mar 2013 10:09PM
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Wash riding is a tricky one!

My personal opinion is, a paddler should mix it up. Its a big "NO, NO" to wash ride 100% of the time.
If you are good enough to wash ride you should be good enough to take the lead!!

That's in a race and time trial.

PS well done Matt, smashing time on a 12'6 and paddling by yourself.

skebstebamal
QLD, 577 posts
21 Mar 2013 10:17PM
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piss off all 4 of you blokes on ur 21 inch wide toothpicks. get a mans board, one that you get a good stretch by just putting ur feet on the edges of it.

as for wash riding, u all got wicked times tonight and i think everyone of you blokes did wash ride at some stage... maybe not rjk... who cares, see if u can go sub 26 minutes!

PTSUP
QLD, 218 posts
22 Mar 2013 7:43AM
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Unbelievable times by every paddler.

The Kayak lanes are there lets use them.Stay in the designated lane,2 k down ,kick turn a separate buoy,2 k back.take your time.no drafting,Ryan stays happy!!

TrevT
QLD, 134 posts
22 Mar 2013 10:41AM
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Hi Guys Di here, not Trev, he's at school. Agree with PT. How about this? We have 8 lanes, designate one lane to the dragon boaters, then seed the lanes i.e. take the top seven paddlers each Thurs and allocate them to a separate lane. Then take the bottom seven and allocate them to each lane. Put the middle ones in between - the logic here is the slow ones will not be able to wash ride the fast ones anyway. Start at the buoys, turn at the end of your lane, end at the buoys (not on the beach) - will make this shorter but everyone does the same distance and we will get true times. Will also make it easier for beginners like me to get going at the beginning because the wash makes it very difficult to stay on the board. Will also make timing accurate and time trials more fun as it takes away the constant debate on wash riding and really shows whose quickest. Any comments???? Cheers Di

Snowie
NSW, 149 posts
22 Mar 2013 11:51AM
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The idea of telling DBers to turn a boat up and down lane 8 made me LOL. Obviously not a lot of 6 ft maoris or czechs in that crew compared to NSW.

Go the Mad Max option and stick barbed wire on the back of your board for the tailgaters.

cel23
QLD, 175 posts
22 Mar 2013 11:07AM
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TrevT said...
Here are some pics from the lake today Cheers Trev




I look like a panting dog! haha

RJK
QLD, 621 posts
22 Mar 2013 11:27AM
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TrevT said...
Hi Guys Di here, not Trev, he's at school. Agree with PT. How about this? We have 8 lanes, designate one lane to the dragon boaters, then seed the lanes i.e. take the top seven paddlers each Thurs and allocate them to a separate lane. Then take the bottom seven and allocate them to each lane. Put the middle ones in between - the logic here is the slow ones will not be able to wash ride the fast ones anyway. Start at the buoys, turn at the end of your lane, end at the buoys (not on the beach) - will make this shorter but everyone does the same distance and we will get true times. Will also make it easier for beginners like me to get going at the beginning because the wash makes it very difficult to stay on the board. Will also make timing accurate and time trials more fun as it takes away the constant debate on wash riding and really shows whose quickest. Any comments???? Cheers Di


good alternative but i dont think we need to do that. there is heaps of room to spread out on the way down and back. you dont ever "accidentally cant get out of the way" wash ride. it is done with intent. just reiterate the rule we made many months ago and ban wash riding.

pretty dirty act to do especially when the person being wash ridden is yelling at the cheats to get off!!

and as for the dragon boaters, the organisers are good friends of mine and i dont think it would be polite to tell them to stick within any sort of bounds especially as they were paddling the lake long before us.





especially not this guy!!! he would crush us all!! im already running terrified!!

PeterP
717 posts
22 Mar 2013 3:15PM
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If you want a true time trial and have the facility to do so then this should perhaps be considered by using the lanes at your disposal.

But if you want to breed racers then starting in a bunch, washriding and turning buoys wit guys around you is the way to go.

Who cares if a guy has a slightly inflated TT time due to washriding? How is that cheating? It just means he used the tools available in the race.

If that was the logic the RJK's time on a 15'6 should be taken off the leaderboard....

RJK
QLD, 621 posts
22 Mar 2013 5:26PM
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PeterP said...
If you want a true time trial and have the facility to do so then this should perhaps be considered by using the lanes at your disposal.

But if you want to breed racers then starting in a bunch, washriding and turning buoys wit guys around you is the way to go.

Who cares if a guy has a slightly inflated TT time due to washriding? How is that cheating? It just means he used the tools available in the race.

If that was the logic the RJK's time on a 15'6 should be taken off the leaderboard....


i dont understand? when i did that time i didnt wash ride at all. in a RACE wash ride all you want but if we publicise it as a timetrial which is defined as individual against the clock, then i do think wash riding is cheating.

you say slightly inflate time, have you ever wash ridden? ive seen people knock 2minutes off their time due to wash riding....

if you claim wash riding is fair why doesnt someone organise a boat then wash ride that the whole way just to show how fast they are on the leaderboard?

not having a go at you but can you please explain your comment a bit more?

PeterP
717 posts
22 Mar 2013 4:07PM
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Glad you took the bait...

I've been doing TT's for the past 3 years, often 2 a week so I've pretty much seen it all. And yes, you can inflate your time, how much is relative to the length of the course and whether the guy towing is suited in terms of his strength vs. your strength.

On our 1.9km course I have done 11.37 drafting and 11.46 without drafting - this does not mean that the difference is then 9secs on that distance as too many other factors play in, such as weather and how you are feeling on the day. On our longer 3km course I've done 18.29 with drafting and just under 19min on my own-some. With the right fitness I will repeat 18.29 without drafting, at least that is my goal.

So for sure it makes a difference, but so what? If I'm strong enough to hang on to a guy doing 9.7km/h then that also means something to me and it means that my equipment allows me to hang on.

Wrt to your 15'6 time I'm not suggesting you were drafting, but using a longer board to get the course record could arguably be just as unfair? I mean, if the others aren't allowed to use the wash what gives you the right to pitch up with a faster board?

The funny part is that here no-one is complaining about the drafting - its the slower guys that are complaining that the water is getting too messy when there are too many people ahead of them and that this impedes their times...

The guys that are serious about their training pull out of the draft to get more resistance.

We don't have the luxury of using lanes as we're in relatively narrow canals - you seem to have that luxury - so the solution would seem to be to use them if drafting is such a big deal.

I think you'll find the TT's becoming boring, might as well go and do them on your own with a stopwatch.

RJK
QLD, 621 posts
22 Mar 2013 6:22PM
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I didn't red thumb u by the way, I don't do re thumbs

RJK
QLD, 621 posts
22 Mar 2013 6:37PM
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Some good points.

Because its a time trial it's all relative to your equipment so a longer board isn't an unfair advantage as such. But I wanted to see how I rated against the top guys so I sold my 15"6 and got a 14.

What gets me is the top guys wash riding each other. I'm 92kg so I put off a decent wake. To have people like trev wash riding me when he clearly already has the top record really annoys me. The thing with the leader board is its a good comparison to see how your going, but when you put the hard yards in then someone wash rides then sprints the finish to win, that is not a good comparo!

AndyR
QLD, 1344 posts
22 Mar 2013 7:00PM
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If its a TT why don't you just stagger the start times. Surely 30seconds between each person would be enough for the water to settle to stop the wash and mess??

RJK
QLD, 621 posts
22 Mar 2013 7:10PM
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AndyR said...
If its a TT why don't you just stagger the start times. Surely 30seconds between each person would be enough for the water to settle to stop the wash and mess??


The main reason is our timers do a great job each week and we don't really want to ask for more of their time

teatrea
QLD, 4177 posts
22 Mar 2013 7:14PM
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I love wash ridingIt is a good skill , a small sprint from the lead rider can open up a pretty good gap quickly if your concerned abouit someone getting a free ride.Id hate drafting to be taken out of racing , its all part of the tactics

AndyR
QLD, 1344 posts
22 Mar 2013 8:02PM
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RJK said...
Select to expand quote
AndyR said...

The main reason is our timers do a great job each week and we don't really want to ask for more of their time


Ok yeah that's fair enough. This is prob thinking to far advanced but it would be great to see something like we have in marathon and triathlon events with personal timing chips, all you need is a start and end gate then all times are downloaded onto a computer.. Obviously this would require money to set up though.

Swanie
QLD, 1372 posts
22 Mar 2013 8:38PM
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AndyR said...
RJK said...
Select to expand quote
AndyR said...

The main reason is our timers do a great job each week and we don't really want to ask for more of their time


Ok yeah that's fair enough. This is prob thinking to far advanced but it would be great to see something like we have in marathon and triathlon events with personal timing chips, all you need is a start and end gate then all times are downloaded onto a computer.. Obviously this would require money to set up though.




Wow. Most follow up post I have seen on a time trial. Not what I expected.

I have a grant in for $11000 worth of RFID's that will assist the time keepers. The timekeepers do a fantastic job and are incredibly attractive.

I am confident with this grant and you are right as it is the way to go.

A year ago I was doing staggered starts and worked out people's times so that they all came in together for a race to the beach end. Was fantastic but highly stressful for the timekeepers. One must always listen to the timekeepers opinion.

The time trials are about beating your PB and or what ever it is you enjoy about them. I paddle the 15'6 as I enjoy racing the fast boys on their 14's. On the leader board, and each night, we post the type of board paddled for that time.

Currently we have seven great paddlers with times at the 26 and a half minute stage or better on 14' boards. I am keen to see who is the first to go under 26 on a 14' board. Also keen to see who is the first to average greater then 10km/h for the lap.

Some others do them just to race another member who is a similar timer. Eg: PT and Jayne. By the way Jayne is faster .

My take on wash riding at this event is this: Sometimes you find yourself on someone's wash, few stroke and then try and pass the person. That is all cool. It is sometimes impossible to avoid this. But staying there in my opinion is not on. Right or wrong I have punished those who stay there and try and sprint past towards the end. Accidentally placing my blade behind their feet as they try to pass and then stroking back hard when their blade is out. Find it gives a great burst of energy

Seriously though I think all have done the wash riding thing at one time or another for a longer period then acceptable (with the exception of Rusty who hates it passionately). It should be cleared up at this event so all are aware. What that is we will discuss in two weeks.
My view is the format is fine just advise people that they can not stay on the tail of someone for long. (Time /percentage to be debated)

Changing the course will null and void the current leader board and we have some great people's times on this.

This leader board has been discussed by industry leaders around the world so it would be great for as many Breezers to come and give it a crack. We will have a range of 12'6"'s available to you from the club so you will not have to travel with your board if you are holidays etc.

Cheers
Swanie

RJK
QLD, 621 posts
22 Mar 2013 10:11PM
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Swanie said...
AndyR said...
RJK said...
Select to expand quote
AndyR said...

The main reason is our timers do a great job each week and we don't really want to ask for more of their time


Ok yeah that's fair enough. This is prob thinking to far advanced but it would be great to see something like we have in marathon and triathlon events with personal timing chips, all you need is a start and end gate then all times are downloaded onto a computer.. Obviously this would require money to set up though.




Wow. Most follow up post I have seen on a time trial. Not what I expected.

I have a grant in for $11000 worth of RFID's that will assist the time keepers. The timekeepers do a fantastic job and are incredibly attractive.

I am confident with this grant and you are right as it is the way to go.

A year ago I was doing staggered starts and worked out people's times so that they all came in together for a race to the beach end. Was fantastic but highly stressful for the timekeepers. One must always listen to the timekeepers opinion.

The time trials are about beating your PB and or what ever it is you enjoy about them. I paddle the 15'6 as I enjoy racing the fast boys on their 14's. On the leader board, and each night, we post the type of board paddled for that time.

Currently we have seven great paddlers with times at the 26 and a half minute stage or better on 14' boards. I am keen to see who is the first to go under 26 on a 14' board. Also keen to see who is the first to average greater then 10km/h for the lap.

Some others do them just to race another member who is a similar timer. Eg: PT and Jayne. By the way Jayne is faster .

My take on wash riding at this event is this: Sometimes you find yourself on someone's wash, few stroke and then try and pass the person. That is all cool. It is sometimes impossible to avoid this. But staying there in my opinion is not on. Right or wrong I have punished those who stay there and try and sprint past towards the end. Accidentally placing my blade behind their feet as they try to pass and then stroking back hard when their blade is out. Find it gives a great burst of energy

Seriously though I think all have done the wash riding thing at one time or another for a longer period then acceptable (with the exception of Rusty who hates it passionately). It should be cleared up at this event so all are aware. What that is we will discuss in two weeks.
My view is the format is fine just advise people that they can not stay on the tail of someone for long. (Time /percentage to be debated)

Changing the course will null and void the current leader board and we have some great people's times on this.

This leader board has been discussed by industry leaders around the world so it would be great for as many Breezers to come and give it a crack. We will have a range of 12'6"'s available to you from the club so you will not have to travel with your board if you are holidays etc.

Cheers
Swanie




Completely agree Swanie, great commeny

KGJ
QLD, 16 posts
23 Mar 2013 11:58AM
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Yes, Swannie well said.

From a newbies point of view, it works well in it's current format, and I see no reason to change. The racing is pretty casual, but still serious enough, and starting together in the one group gives us practice in having to get away quickly and dealing with others wash.

I don't tend to wash ride because I am always trying to see if I am improving, and this is difficult to judge if your times are assisted by washriding. I actually don't mind if someone is wash riding me as it gives me practice in trying to drop them. Ryan I know you are a bit of a target to washride by some, but take it as a complement, we know who is doing the work.

For general opinion: One thing I feel we could try is when we turn up on a really windy day (usually not many turn up) and times are obviously going to be nowhere near our usual, maybe we could mix it up and do a few shorter sprint races and not worry about timing.

Regards KJ
PS thanks to all involved in the club, been a great motivator.



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"Kawana Lake Time Trials March 21" started by Swanie