Reading runners

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jenkz
jenkz
WA
793 posts
WA, 793 posts
30 Nov 2009 9:15pm
Some time back someone posted some information on how to read runners for downwinders. I think the thread was related to OC1 paddling but was relevent to SUP. Can anyone recall or find this thread.
Thanks
Luke
worrier
worrier
WA
726 posts
WA, 726 posts
1 Dec 2009 8:05am
I just know its a lot of fun.
Started doin a coupla downwinders up here in our typical afternoon southerlys.
Starting to catch a few runners. The trick seems to be to get in the deeper water where the swells are a bit bigger and easier to read.
W
mikeman
mikeman
QLD
692 posts
QLD, 692 posts
1 Dec 2009 10:57am
jenkz said...

Some time back someone posted some information on how to read runners for downwinders. I think the thread was related to OC1 paddling but was relevent to SUP. Can anyone recall or find this thread.
Thanks
Luke



Hey Luke,

Reading runs properly on a SUP will take a little time and the only way to learn it is to get out there onto some good ocean swells and have a go. Dale Chapman and a few others from the East coast will be coming over your way for the doctor paddle. He would be glad to show you a few things - just ask him. Learning from others will shorten the learning curve for you.

Once you get it you will start having heaps of fun out there.
hilly
hilly
WA
8133 posts
JonathanC
JonathanC
VIC
1024 posts
VIC, 1024 posts
1 Dec 2009 1:00pm
Hi Luke,
When you are first trying to catch runners you will feel the nose of the board drop just as a wave passes underneath you - almost as if the tip of the board scrapes down the back of the wave. That is what you are looking for, as the nose of the board drops reach right forward as Ekolu Kalama does and PADDLE HARD ! Even better than waiting for it to drop is to anticipate that moment and get your self ready so that you can paddle down the little ramp, it's as if you are trying to punch the tip of the board into the wave in front, in fact that may happen a little. Once you are on the runner if it is steep enough you may quickly need to move back into surfing stance, in the beginning I wouldn't worry too much about turning 45 degrees and going down the line - there will be enough going on to start with! In some conditions you can just remain pretty much in your regular paddling stance but as soon as it gets bigger or steeper or both you will find that you are moving in and out of surfing stance pretty constantly.

You can actually get a feel for it in tiny wind swell, always look for an area of water in front of you that is "down hill" and paddle down into it. You will need to constantly trim and turn the board to pick up these tiny little guys and you don't catch them as such but just get a little push, they help you keep you speed up so that when a real runner comes you are already travelling that little bit faster to make it easier to power onto. You aim to be gliding as much as possible and always looking for the next little pocket to help you keep the momentum up.

Once you get more comfortable actually gliding down the line or across the wave face you are always looking for the next swell that you can use the speed you have from going down the line to pick up, it's possible to get enough speed to accelerate over the back of the wave in front and then even the one in front of that - at that point you are in down wind paradise!! It's incredibly addictive, I just got back from a paddle with a friend, 90 minutes of upwind into approx 12 to 15 knots than 55 minutes of gentle little linked glides back home. It doesn't need to be howling windy to have fun but probably a good 20 to 25 or more helps you pick up the techniques faster.
P co
P co
WA
458 posts
WA, 458 posts
1 Dec 2009 12:41pm
I find there is a big difference between the river and the ocean. On the river you can actually paddle faster than the small waves and therefore paddle onto runners in front of you. Heaps easier than the ocean where the swells travel faster and come up from behind. It also seems on the ocean it is not always the bigger swells that you can catch, maybe the its the wind swell rather than the ocean swell here too. Would loveto try it with the wind and swell direction perfectly inline.
jenkz
jenkz
WA
793 posts
WA, 793 posts
1 Dec 2009 2:46pm
Thanks for the input guys.
Im actually finding that I seem to be catching the second or third swell or windwave after the one I was initially wanting to catch.
By the sounds of it I should go more by "feel" and not so much by looking behind for whats coming. Hoping for a downwinder this weekend so I'll change my style and see how I go.
Thanks again
Luke
mikeman
mikeman
QLD
692 posts
QLD, 692 posts
1 Dec 2009 8:28pm
Yes, JonathanC has got it!

Don't look behind you as you want to focus on what is happening under and ahead of you. You need to try and anticipate when the nose will drop into the trough and then hit it.

This is the opposite to surfing where you are looking for a high pressure "push". What you want to look for here is the low pressure "pull". The nose of your board is what you want locked into the low pressure pocket at the back of the run.

This all sounds like gibberish but once you get it you will know what I mean. enough time in the water and you will start to feel what the water is doing. Its your job to respond to what it is doing and go with the flow...

Once you get this part worked out you need to read the ever changing swell actions and try and follow the trough as it moves around a lot.
jenkz
jenkz
WA
793 posts
WA, 793 posts
2 Dec 2009 2:08pm
Doing a downwinder on Sunday morning with 22kn due south forecast. Will try to put your info to work

Luke
DavidJohn
DavidJohn
VIC
17570 posts
VIC, 17570 posts
2 Dec 2009 5:53pm
Here's a great vid showing Dave Kalama on the Naish 17... www.standupzone.com/forum/index.php?topic=5646.0

DJ
hilly
hilly
WA
8133 posts
WA, 8133 posts
2 Dec 2009 3:06pm
Look up DJ I think I put that one up already LOL your foot distracting you
DavidJohn
DavidJohn
VIC
17570 posts
VIC, 17570 posts
2 Dec 2009 6:34pm
hilly said...

Look up DJ I think I put that one up already LOL your foot distracting you


Oooh yeah.. Ooops..

I've been too busy going through all my Mambo pics and I was about to post them with comments and I accidentally hit that little red box in the corner.. .. Doh!

DJ

hilly
hilly
WA
8133 posts
WA, 8133 posts
2 Dec 2009 9:25pm
DavidJohn said...

hilly said...

Look up DJ I think I put that one up already LOL your foot distracting you


Oooh yeah.. Ooops..

I've been too busy going through all my Mambo pics and I was about to post them with comments and I accidentally hit that little red box in the corner.. .. Doh!

DJ



love the mambo coverage thanks, will try to get there soon.

jed
jed
NSW
188 posts
jed jed
NSW, 188 posts
3 Dec 2009 6:29pm
Can anyone explain why Ekolu in the video above has a different explanation of what is good paddling technique from Dave Kalama, and why both have a different take on it than Todd Bradley, and then there's Jim Terrell from Quickblade who is different again and who knows who else. All of these guys are gun paddlers and racers - who is right? All of them or just one? I am definitely confused.
akhawk
akhawk
WA
1085 posts
WA, 1085 posts
3 Dec 2009 4:16pm
jed said...

Can anyone explain why Ekolu in the video above has a different explanation of what is good paddling technique from Dave Kalama, and why both have a different take on it than Todd Bradley, and then there's Jim Terrell from Quickblade who is different again and who knows who else. All of these guys are gun paddlers and racers - who is right? All of them or just one? I am definitely confused.


I'm with you. Watching vid's there doesn't seem to be too many people driving forward with the top arm like Todd Bradley suggests. I guess what works for one may not always work for another.
DavidJohn
DavidJohn
VIC
17570 posts
VIC, 17570 posts
3 Dec 2009 7:37pm
akhawk said...

jed said...

Can anyone explain why Ekolu in the video above has a different explanation of what is good paddling technique from Dave Kalama, and why both have a different take on it than Todd Bradley, and then there's Jim Terrell from Quickblade who is different again and who knows who else. All of these guys are gun paddlers and racers - who is right? All of them or just one? I am definitely confused.


I'm with you. Watching vid's there doesn't seem to be too many people driving forward with the top arm like Todd Bradley suggests. I guess what works for one may not always work for another.


I think Todd is explaining that there is a need to use both arms and not just pull back with the lower arm.. I'm not sure that I understand the way he explains it.

I like the way Dave explains how he mixes it up between the Hawaiian and Tahitian styles and I'm sure Ekolu does the same.

I like the way Ekolu explains the need to maintain the space between your hands and the small circle thing with the top hand.

If you looks at all the top paddlers they all have their own distinct styles.

DJ



JonathanC
JonathanC
VIC
1024 posts
VIC, 1024 posts
3 Dec 2009 9:52pm
I have a feeling that it is just the way Ekolu explains it that is different to Dave. The triangle thing that Ekolu mentions is just a way to remind yourself that the action is all about your torso twisting rather than the action just coming from your shoulders and arms - so when you reach forward to start the stroke your bottom hand/arm is not actually lengthening, you get the reach from twisting your torso, then your put the blade in the water - way forward (at that point your top hand will be up high and quite a long way back - almost over your head), then you pull back by untwisting your torso and pulling down at the same time. If you do that most of the power comes from your core muscles particularly the obliques, the ones at the top of your six pack (that thing under the comfort pack on top ). The triangle thing just helps get it into your head that there is this stable structure of of paddle handle and two arms. Don't forget that most of what Ekolu says (I think) is about that really aggressive power stroke to get you onto a runner.

Jeremy Riggs describes it as hugging a bear, I actually prefer that because that helps you to remember to keep your chest open which in turn stops you scrunching up your shoulders. If you practise it now notice what is happening to your shoulder blades, keep them pulled down as you do the paddle action and you can feel how much more space there is in your shoulder joint. Just imagine that you hug the bear, then you lift it up, then you twist it sideways so that it's body is almost horizontal rather than vertical then you keep it in that position and sweep it down towards the board, then you straighten it back up at the end of the stroke.

I think that a really good exercise to learn to engage the muscles that keep your shoulder blades pulled down it to stand up close to a wall so that your palms are flat on the wall with you elbows quite bent. Now consciously raise and lower your shoulder blades by engaging those deep muscles beneath your scapula - the hardest bit is pulling down, we are all pretty good at that shrugging neck, shoulder scrunching thing but not so good at the opposite. When you have done that exercise (3 sets of 15 on each side every day!) for a while you will find that you can stabilise the "bear hug" or triangle way more effectively and you will really end up with the stability that Ekolu talks about. Without the shoulder stability you can't effectively transmit the power from your core to the paddle.

Just my interpretation of it all, all I know is that it's very confusing but I think Ekolu Dave and Jim are pretty much on about the same thing just explaining it very differently. Todd Bradley seems quite different though with the bent upper arm punch thing - I wouldn't even dream of saying which is right and which is wrong though.
hilly
hilly
WA
8133 posts
WA, 8133 posts
3 Dec 2009 10:26pm
What he said
jed
jed
NSW
188 posts
jed jed
NSW, 188 posts
4 Dec 2009 5:16pm
seems like different strokes for different folks then. I am going to try that huggy bear thing, might ask Mrs Jed if I can practice on her first.
jenkz
jenkz
WA
793 posts
WA, 793 posts
6 Dec 2009 9:00pm
JonathonC and mikeman I took your advise today on a downwinder and concentrated more on the feel of the board rather than looking at and trying to catch the swells I could see. It made a huge difference. Some of the runners I caught didn't look like much as a wave goes but certainly gave us some good rides. I can see now what you mean by the low pressure "pull" of the runners also.
Thanks for the advise guys. Will keep on working on it for the "Doctor"
Luke
mikeman
mikeman
QLD
692 posts
QLD, 692 posts
7 Dec 2009 10:08am
Great to hear Luke. Catching runs is a hard concept to explain unless you have a little time in the water. It is the opposite to what you are looking for when surfing so can get a little confusing. The more time in the water the easier it will be for you to work them out. keep on going with it.

You should pick the brains of the guys coming over there for the doctor as some of these guys are pretty good at it.
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