Tonights times on Kawana Lake

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Swanie
Swanie
QLD
1372 posts
QLD, 1372 posts
6 Dec 2012 11:15pm
Reports of a good paddle tonight even with a cross lake wind the whole way.

Great effort by Margret for doing the whole lake on a 9'5". Well done.

Brendan is marching up the board as he gets more comfortable on that weapon of a Naish.
I think Marcel was on the same??
Here are the times and new leader board






cel23
cel23
QLD
175 posts
QLD, 175 posts
7 Dec 2012 7:48am
yeah i was on the 12'6" Jav
paul.j
paul.j
QLD
3383 posts
QLD, 3383 posts
7 Dec 2012 8:59am
Hey guys is there wash riding allowed in your time trails or does every one stager start? My feeling is for time trails it should be no wash riding if you want a true time on how you are paddling. Keen to hear your thoughts on either way since you guys have been doing these for a while now.

Cheers jacko
Swanie
Swanie
QLD
1372 posts
QLD, 1372 posts
7 Dec 2012 9:11am
paul.j said...
Hey guys is there wash riding allowed in your time trails or does every one stager start? My feeling is for time trails it should be no wash riding if you want a true time on how you are paddling. Keen to hear your thoughts on either way since you guys have been doing these for a while now.

Cheers jacko


Great Question and still contentious here. Up here it happens. Two rules of thought are.
"That Racing" and it is good practice to pull in and try and hold on. I personally don't mind as long as it is shared.

Other thought is "it sucks". It does prevent you getting your best time (if your the poor bloke up front) and though I don't know the physics of this i am sure it is true. Crew behind get a easier ride and beat you to the line. As a true time trial it most likely should not happen. We started with staggered starts but made it hard with all coming in together for my wife doing the timing.

We have just applied for $11k of RFID timing bracelets which will make staggered starts the way to go.

I prefer to race beside someone as it tends to push me harder and makes the challenge fun.


look forward to reading following posts.
Swanie
Swanie
QLD
1372 posts
QLD, 1372 posts
7 Dec 2012 9:16am
Just noticed Marcel did a PB. Will correct the leader board tonight.
RJK
RJK
NSW
622 posts
RJK RJK
NSW, 622 posts
7 Dec 2012 10:54am
paul.j said...
Hey guys is there wash riding allowed in your time trails or does every one stager start? My feeling is for time trails it should be no wash riding if you want a true time on how you are paddling. Keen to hear your thoughts on either way since you guys have been doing these for a while now.

Cheers jacko


Completely agree. Not too many of those times are wash riding free. I understand why people want to wash ride but a time trial is against the clock. It not a race.
PeterP
PeterP
873 posts
873 posts
7 Dec 2012 2:44pm
We have the same discussion here and I think its more about the terminology of TT as opposed to race. If everyone starts at the same time and drafting is allowed it is technically speaking a race.

We also call it a TT and if a guy improves his time by riding the wash, its fine. As Swanie says, having a staggered start is much more admin on the part of the timekeeper and we try and keep it as simple as possible as its a weekly thing where paddlers can come an have a quick buzz with no entry fee.

Overall the objective is to get some fitness and improve your paddling skills which in this case includes learning how to paddle fast with other people around you - whether on the wash or not.

RJK
RJK
NSW
622 posts
RJK RJK
NSW, 622 posts
7 Dec 2012 6:28pm
I do think it needs to be noted somewhere if you have paddled it solo or not. It's not really fair on the people that put in the solo effort
RJK
RJK
NSW
622 posts
RJK RJK
NSW, 622 posts
8 Dec 2012 2:34pm
RJK said...
I do think it needs to be noted somewhere if you have paddled it solo or not. It's not really fair on the people that put in the solo effort


Not that I'm mentioning names .... Kai Lenny ....
JonesySUP
JonesySUP
QLD
872 posts
QLD, 872 posts
8 Dec 2012 1:57pm
Very good point Jacko and totally agree.

I'll be having a chat to Swanie tmw about putting a note on all times that have had more than 10% wash riding.

A good Example would be Kai's 12'6 time because he was assised by Trevor on his 14 foot Ace 95% of the lake.

Looking at the list the only un-assisted times would be Raz, Kelly and Beau.

Jonesy
PeterP
PeterP
873 posts
873 posts
8 Dec 2012 1:38pm
I'd disagree - too much admin and open for interpretation - "He only washed 8% of the time" etc.

Leave it as it is, if everyone knows drafting is involved, it's fair on everyone. Drafting at the sharp end is no mean feat and is an excellent tool for when you go racing - for Kai to wash off a 14' at that speed is not easy - if it was, someone else in your crowd would have done a similar job on a 12'6......I challenge any of you to equal that time next week by "just" riding the wash...

We have beginners here every week - they can't draft off a fast guy, hell, the best guys drop me off the wash from time to time and I'm in the top 10.... it takes skill, fitness and is easier to do on some boards than others.

Some of our top guys use the TT's for training and on purpose sit out of the draft from time to time just to ensure they get the heart-rate pumping and prepare themselves for leading a race or taking a different line out on their own.

If people really want to get sensitive about the drafting component, its just the TT terminology that is wrong. If they are, I welcome them to come and run the TT's with staggered start every single week for no fee....
paul.j
paul.j
QLD
3383 posts
QLD, 3383 posts
8 Dec 2012 3:52pm
iTS EASY NO WASH RIDING OR WASH RIDING ALLOWED sorry for yelling!!

jacko
Swanie
Swanie
QLD
1372 posts
QLD, 1372 posts
8 Dec 2012 4:04pm
JonesySUP said...
Very good point Jacko and totally agree.

I'll be having a chat to Swanie tmw about putting a note on all times that have had more than 10% wash riding.

A good Example would be Kai's 12'6 time because he was assised by Trevor on his 14 foot Ace 95% of the lake.

Looking at the list the only un-assisted times would be Raz, Kelly and Beau.

Jonesy


Geez....

How am I ever going to paddle whilst taking notes on how much a person wash rides???? I am flat out counting to 10 at the end let alone remembering who did what. Plus most of you are behind me on the 15'6" (wait a sec whilst I put on a fire suit).

Admin on this for my wife and I is for the love of it but does take a couple of hours per week. The time trials are free for all even though we (the club) pay over $350 a year for the Lake.

Keeping it simple is the key for keeping someone who is prepared to do it otherwise it will not be of interest here or other places for administration. I personally will not be adding anything to it.

Most of my times would be unassisted and I believe 2 weeks ago I had RAz on my tail for 3km and Jonsey there for 4km. I just couldn't latch on to Raz when he passed me(tried though)

Biltong's fastest time also was clean. There would be many PB's in the list on the leader board that were clean runs. Also many that would be assisted with wash riding. My best 12'6" time was done because I was trying to keep the Sunshine Coast 'Leachie' off my tail.

I now it is part of racing and I have tried to pull in on the train from time to time though prefer to go it alone. Part of me hates it when someone gets on my tail as I can feel the drag but then again it is that hatred of them there or the feeling that they might pass me that drives me to go harder to try and shake them (often unsuccessfully) that may be giving me a better time at times.

Basically I think that all areas need to decide on a local point what is allowed. At our Time Trials it has been an accepted thing that it happens and the person normally copes a ribbing for doing it by it has been allowed and will continue to be allowed until the group decides it isn't.
PeterP
PeterP
873 posts
873 posts
8 Dec 2012 2:17pm
JACKO - ITS NOT THAT EASY....if you don't have staggered start it will never be wash-free. We have a TT together with 100 canoes/surfskis - the first 500m is like doing a downwinder, runners galore! So if you want it "pure" then it must be staggered.

I also don't understand the fair comment - Trevor knew Kai could draft so what is not fair? That Kai beat him to the line and got a better time? Trevors time wasn't impeded in any way, so his time, is his time. Kai got a better time than he would've gotten without Trevors help, but it was still Trevors choice to keep paddling in front so if he feels rotten about having helped Kai he has only himself to blame. If Trevors mission was to get a better time than Kai then he would have had to make sure he had enough in the tank to beat him to the line. Using these two purely as an example - (I'm sure Trevor is stoked having helped Kai get a better time, I would have been)

I agree with you Swanie - keep it simple! (and having a guy on your wash does not cause any drag whatsoever...:)
cel23
cel23
QLD
175 posts
QLD, 175 posts
8 Dec 2012 5:06pm
I agree with Jacko, wither allow wash riding or rule it out all together!

There cant be any of this... oh yeah but when you did that time you were wash riding...
Truth is, I dont think there is one person who I haven't seen wash riding. So anyone who currently says that you cant wash ride is a hypocrite.

Until its official ruled out, im not going to use 10% more energy when i dont have to???? haha
Swanie
Swanie
QLD
1372 posts
QLD, 1372 posts
8 Dec 2012 5:28pm
cel23 said...
I agree with Jacko, wither allow wash riding or rule it out all together!

There cant be any of this... oh yeah but when you did that time you were wash riding...
Truth is, I dont think there is one person who I haven't seen wash riding. So anyone who currently says that you cant wash ride is a hypocrite.

Until its official ruled out, im not going to use 10% more energy when i dont have to???? haha


When have you been behind me watching???
skebstebamal
skebstebamal
QLD
579 posts
RJK
RJK
NSW
622 posts
RJK RJK
NSW, 622 posts
8 Dec 2012 11:44pm
"Truth is, I dont think there is one person who I haven't seen wash riding. So anyone who currently says that you cant wash ride is a hypocrite."

funny comment coming from a grom that has never paddled the lake solo (or even half way solo). also you have never seen kelly or beau wash riding the time trial.

"and I believe 2 weeks ago I had RAz on my tail for 3km and Jonsey there for 4km. I just couldn't latch on to Raz when he passed me(tried though)"

that session wash the first time i have EVER wash ridden at the time trial, as such i didnt actually take the paddle seriously or claim i was the "winner", i used it as a technique session as i was the only one on a 14 (appart from swanie).

"its just the TT terminology that is wrong"

so your saying change the terminology and nature of our lake sessions just to make the wash riding leaches feel better about it???

"Trevors time wasn't impeded in any way"

the lake is present as a liquid due to bonding between water molecules so yes wash riding does effect the paddler in front (although probably marginally, myth busters???)

if you look at the results posted each week you will notice its the times we compare, not the position you come each week and i know of several paddlers who claim their 'magnificence' based on lake times although never with reference to wash riding.

you dont need staggered starts to rule out wash riding. just set the rule at the start and make a ruling that those that oppose wont get their time recorded.

if its not a time trial then dont waste joes time by making her record results. if wash riding is allowed then next week ill get jonesy to bring his tinny along and i will wash ride that the whole way and publically claim im the greatest paddler in the world

simple!
CMC
CMC
QLD
3954 posts
CMC CMC
QLD, 3954 posts
8 Dec 2012 11:23pm
I am slow and no threat to anyone but I can tell you that if someone sat on my wash for 8ks I'd do a way faster time than if I was on my own.

I don't know how someone on your tail slows you down with drag but being there they put a rocket up most people's butt.

I'm sure I'm not the only person that paddles faster with competition close by than on my own.
cel23
cel23
QLD
175 posts
QLD, 175 posts
9 Dec 2012 7:24am
RJK said...
"Truth is, I dont think there is one person who I haven't seen wash riding. So anyone who currently says that you cant wash ride is a hypocrite."

funny comment coming from a grom that has never paddled the lake solo (or even half way solo). also you have never seen kelly or beau wash riding the time trial.


Ive never seen kelly or beau paddle the lake at all? so yeah your right, I haven't seen them wash riding.

Im not trying to take anyones times away from them by saying they were wash riding... just saying MOST people do it, not denying that I do it either? i think it is all apart of it, and im happy for people to wash ride me too.
RJK
RJK
NSW
622 posts
RJK RJK
NSW, 622 posts
9 Dec 2012 8:54am
cel23 said...
i think it is all apart of it, and im happy for people to wash ride me too.


You can't make that offer if you never take the lead
PeterP
PeterP
873 posts
873 posts
9 Dec 2012 6:49am
I can barely believe you guys - here is a guy that pays for access to a lake and gets his wife to take down the times, spends time compiling and posting the results and then you complain because somebody is paddling behind you?

I'm lost for words....



teatrea
teatrea
QLD
4177 posts
QLD, 4177 posts
9 Dec 2012 9:46am
This is funny stuff Drafting is an accepted practice in almost all sports. If you want to break the lake time trial record you should employ a Bunny or two.Not to mention wash riding is fun , and takes some skill. If you stagger starts this wont give a true indication either. If your the guy out in front who gets wash rode all the time , be happy about it
Swanie
Swanie
QLD
1372 posts
QLD, 1372 posts
9 Dec 2012 12:25pm
Funny stuff

We were talking about it at club day today and general thought was ok to wash ride as long as it is same class boards for Our time trial. Hence 12'6 can wash ride 12'6 but not 14' etc etc.

Got to love owning a 15'6" now
PeterP
PeterP
873 posts
873 posts
9 Dec 2012 1:47pm
Well not really - according to the logic any unfair advantage should be eliminated - so a 15'6 should henceforth be eliminated from the lake...and while you're at it why not ban the 14's? They are after all also quicker than the 12'6s and then you also solve the problem of having to police whether the guy drafting the 14 on his 12'6 was over over 16yo or not...

PTSUP
PTSUP
QLD
218 posts
QLD, 218 posts
9 Dec 2012 5:06pm

Use the racing lanes like the K1's do.

And Hawaii is pretty amazing for a SUP holiday,even a couple of sessions on my lonesome in perfect head high waves
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