Forums > Windsurfing Foiling

Freeride/wave/freestyle foils explained

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Created by azymuth Two weeks ago, 6 Jun 2019
azymuth
WA, 638 posts
6 Jun 2019 4:54PM
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Wyatt differentiates clearly between race foils/big boards and freeride foils/small boards.
Useful I think, as non-foilers are often not appreciating that they're quite different.

&feature=youtu.be

sausage
QLD, 4797 posts
6 Jun 2019 8:14PM
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Azymuth,
First foil today and whilst this comment comes with absolutely no experience of other foils, the Slingshot infinity 76 must be pretty forgiving as I got straight up and generally stayed on the foil for 75% of my session...(not including the part from wallowing around in the shore break either taking a breather or just trying to get the bloody thing back in to shore!). It planes with the slightest of ease and at incredibly slow speeds - I suspect it would have been a brown pant experience if I'd got a more racing oriented foil to start foiling with.

AlexF
192 posts
6 Jun 2019 11:24PM
Thumbs Up

Interessting and some open, critical words about the competitors.
If SS are that open in their communication i'd also like to hear about their connection to Moses, on of the leading brands in kitefoiling and supplier of the SS Ghostwhisper foils.
The new, big Moses wings follow the same design principles like the SS wings, almost looking identical.
I wonder if SS also will sell the full carbon Moses foils under the Ghostwhisper labelling.
I love my Infinity 84 foil, but it's much too heavy. Getting a lighter carbon foil with the same designed wings would open my wallet again.
Could buy Moses tough, but would like to stay with SS.

azymuth
WA, 638 posts
7 Jun 2019 6:01AM
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Select to expand quote
sausage said..
Azymuth,
First foil today and whilst this comment comes with absolutely no experience of other foils, the Slingshot infinity 76 must be pretty forgiving as I got straight up and generally stayed on the foil for 75% of my session...(not including the part from wallowing around in the shore break either taking a breather or just trying to get the bloody thing back in to shore!). It planes with the slightest of ease and at incredibly slow speeds - I suspect it would have been a brown pant experience if I'd got a more racing oriented foil to start foiling with.



Nailed it! Stoked for you Brian
How good are those first flights

What fuse setting did you use and is your Tuttle box still in the original location behind the rear straps? 90cm mast?
How much wind did you have and what sail did you use?
Might be useful info for others thinking of getting into it.

Coming in through shore break - you'll be on port tack I guess.
Turn the board on its side - left hand holding the fuse near the rear wing.
Right hand on the boom keeping wind in the sail so the sail is flying slightly out the water.
The board will be in front of you - push it up the beach on the forward rail.
I put a sacrificial strip on the rail. (SUP tape - Jesper sells it).
Works for me even with fairly large shorebreak/small waves.

sausage
QLD, 4797 posts
7 Jun 2019 9:49AM
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Select to expand quote
azymuth said..






sausage said..
Azymuth,
First foil today and whilst this comment comes with absolutely no experience of other foils, the Slingshot infinity 76 must be pretty forgiving as I got straight up and generally stayed on the foil for 75% of my session...(not including the part from wallowing around in the shore break either taking a breather or just trying to get the bloody thing back in to shore!). It planes with the slightest of ease and at incredibly slow speeds - I suspect it would have been a brown pant experience if I'd got a more racing oriented foil to start foiling with.















Nailed it! Stoked for you Brian
How good are those first flights

What fuse setting did you use and is your Tuttle box still in the original location behind the rear straps? 90cm mast?
How much wind did you have and what sail did you use?
Might be useful info for others thinking of getting into it.

Coming in through shore break - you'll be on port tack I guess.
Turn the board on its side - left hand holding the fuse near the rear wing.
Right hand on the boom keeping wind in the sail so the sail is flying slightly out the water.
The board will be in front of you - push it up the beach on the forward rail.
I put a sacrificial strip on the rail. (SUP tape - Jesper sells it).
Works for me even with fairly large shorebreak/small waves.







Yes it was exhilarating and as the infinity has what I assume to be a very low stall speed, adjustments were all the more easier. Fin box and straps are in original position and foil in position B which (even with no previous experience) felt incredibly balanced.

Wind was quite gusty ranging between 10kn and 17kn and used a very old (2002) 6.9 Ezzy Wave (probably too much lift in the gusts hence me breaching) with mast track 109cm from front bolt. 90cm mast which at times made it feel like I was a mile above the water! Front foot was in the straps and back foot centre to slightly outboard just in front of the front mast bolt - I ended up tearing a big chunk out of the ball of my foot when I breached on port tack when gust and swell combined to lift me and my foot slipped hard back onto the bloody thing. Skin comes off second best when battling with steel ;-)

I felt at times I couldn't quite get enough front foot pressure when getting too much lift but quickly figured out sheeting out and pushing sail forward brought it back level. Also discovered very slight positional changes (forward & back) in back foot placement made considerable difference. no big offs over the front although had some very steep landings when I breached a couple times. Fell in the drink a couple times too when it rounded up but was able to water start without any difficulty (albeit in a few lulls had to uphaul which I can't recall having done for many moons )

Also I might have to get shorter harness lines as the 32" ones just didn't afford me enough transfer through the boom - I assume this should help with keeping it balanced through additional mast pressure? Or would moving mast track forward assist also when powered up?

Session post here gpsteamchallenge.com.au/sailor_session/show?date=2019-06-06&team=20

Thanks for the tips on getting it back in through shore break too. I'm disappointed that it's too windy to foil today too! Might just have to go for a normal bone rattling sail.

PS - unfortunately no foiling gybes


7-Nation Aust
QLD, 111 posts
7 Jun 2019 10:23AM
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Select to expand quote
AlexF said..
Interessting and some open, critical words about the competitors.
If SS are that open in their communication i'd also like to hear about their connection to Moses, on of the leading brands in kitefoiling and supplier of the SS Ghostwhisper foils.
The new, big Moses wings follow the same design principles like the SS wings, almost looking identical.
I wonder if SS also will sell the full carbon Moses foils under the Ghostwhisper labelling.
I love my Infinity 84 foil, but it's much too heavy. Getting a lighter carbon foil with the same designed wings would open my wallet again.
Could buy Moses tough, but would like to stay with SS.


Tony Logosz (Slingshot Designer & Co-Founder) shared the Infinity wing designs & shapes to get them built in the Moses factory.

They won't be getting built there next season.

Slingy have a new factory for a entirely new full carbon fiber foil platform being released called Phantasm.

These will feature the next generation of Tony's wing designs.

There will also be modular carbon fiber parts available for the current Hover Glide platform.

sausage
QLD, 4797 posts
7 Jun 2019 10:44AM
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Select to expand quote

7-Nation Aust said..


Tony Logosz (Slingshot Designer & Co-Founder) shared the Infinity wing designs & shapes to get them built in the Moses factory.

They won't be getting built there next season.

Slingy have a new factory for a entirely new full carbon fiber foil platform being released called Phantasm.

These will feature the next generation of Tony's wing designs.

There will also be modular carbon fiber parts available for the current Hover Glide platform.


That's great to read that Slingshot are developing interchangeable carbon parts for the Hoverglide platform as the aluminium mast and fuselage are considerably weighty.

AlexF
192 posts
7 Jun 2019 5:13PM
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Select to expand quote
7-Nation Aust said..

Tony Logosz (Slingshot Designer & Co-Founder) shared the Infinity wing designs & shapes to get them built in the Moses factory.

They won't be getting built there next season.

Slingy have a new factory for a entirely new full carbon fiber foil platform being released called Phantasm.

These will feature the next generation of Tony's wing designs.

There will also be modular carbon fiber parts available for the current Hover Glide platform.


Sounds promising. When will we get more infos, prices, dates?

WhiteofHeart
125 posts
8 Jun 2019 2:43AM
Thumbs Up

Shame the video is gone. Would've enjoyed watching it.

Have to say, for me, surfing on a lake mostly, the fat, low aspect wings don't do it. High aspect / flatter wings are out of the water just as fast, and also work well with small sails, just take a little more pumping. In the air they work much, much better (not so humble opinion). More speed for carving through turns, more speed for flying through lulls, more direct acceleration from pumping in the air, more pop when jumping, and higher jumps because of more speed.

a good high aspect freeride wing, like the 1200 Lokefoil, Horue XLW or F-One Levo900 is really stable at low speeds, but can easily go faster and keep that speed when the wind drops.

LeeD
476 posts
8 Jun 2019 3:16AM
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Do hi aspect foils jibe as stable as SS and Naish?

7-Nation Aust
QLD, 111 posts
8 Jun 2019 12:12PM
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Infinity 65 wing. (released next month o the hoverglide platform)

LeeD
476 posts
9 Jun 2019 1:19AM
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Wyatt was landing front and back loops 2 years ago in La Ventana.

duzzi
63 posts
10 Jun 2019 10:43AM
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Select to expand quote
AlexF said..
Interessting and some open, critical words about the competitors.
If SS are that open in their communication i'd also like to hear about their connection to Moses, on of the leading brands in kitefoiling and supplier of the SS Ghostwhisper foils.
The new, big Moses wings follow the same design principles like the SS wings, almost looking identical.
I wonder if SS also will sell the full carbon Moses foils under the Ghostwhisper labelling.
I love my Infinity 84 foil, but it's much too heavy. Getting a lighter carbon foil with the same designed wings would open my wallet again.
Could buy Moses tough, but would like to stay with SS.





The connection is that the SS Ghostwhisper(s) are nothing else but the Moses Vento(s). It is very disconcerting that SS advertised the Ghostwhisper as if it were their development. They probably bet that nobody was going to notice because Moses are built in Europe, Italy to be exact. Only problem is that Sailworks imports Moses to the U.S. www.sailworks.com/the-gear/foiling/windfoils/moses-vento-101-windfoil.html and it does not take much to realize that they are identical.

Quite a strident case of kind false advertisement!

7-Nation Aust
QLD, 111 posts
10 Jun 2019 1:00PM
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Select to expand quote
duzzi said..









AlexF said..
Interessting and some open, critical words about the competitors.
If SS are that open in their communication i'd also like to hear about their connection to Moses, on of the leading brands in kitefoiling and supplier of the SS Ghostwhisper foils.
The new, big Moses wings follow the same design principles like the SS wings, almost looking identical.
I wonder if SS also will sell the full carbon Moses foils under the Ghostwhisper labelling.
I love my Infinity 84 foil, but it's much too heavy. Getting a lighter carbon foil with the same designed wings would open my wallet again.
Could buy Moses tough, but would like to stay with SS.














The connection is that the SS Ghostwhisper(s) are nothing else but the Moses Vento(s). It is very disconcerting that SS advertised the Ghostwhisper as if it were their development. They probably bet that nobody was going to notice because Moses are built in Europe, Italy to be exact. Only problem is that Sailworks imports Moses to the U.S. www.sailworks.com/the-gear/foiling/windfoils/moses-vento-101-windfoil.html and it does not take much to realize that they are identical.

Quite a strident case of kind false advertisement!



Tony Logosz (Slingshot Designer & Co-Founder) shared the Infinity wing designs & shapes (vento) to get them built in the Moses factory. And paid for half the tooling costs!

They won't be getting built there next season, due to some issues, which I'll leave up to your imagination as to what.

Slingy have a new factory lined up for a full carbon fiber foil platform being released called Phantasm.

These will feature the next generation of Tony's wing designs.

And make carbon fiber parts for the Hover Glide platform.




Select to expand quote
duzzi said..

Quite a strident case of kind false advertisement!



Yes on Moses end...

We had prototypes here in Oz of the Slingy Infinity wing (Vento) back in 2017.

AlexF
192 posts
10 Jun 2019 7:44PM
Thumbs Up

Moses sells their, or should I say Tonys, foils now to GA Sails, GA just puts their stickers on.

I always thought Moses is the creative part in the SS-Moses connection, seems to be the opposite.

So I better wait with selling my Infinity Foil, because I can get a carbon fuse and mast for it?
Or will the wings also get lighter?

Gwarn
6 posts
10 Jun 2019 8:05PM
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Found some pictures of what looks like a infinity wing mounted to a 111 carbon mast.
hopefully we can get this sooner than later?

Paducah
366 posts
10 Jun 2019 8:33PM
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LeeD said..
Wyatt was landing front and back loops 2 years ago in La Ventana.


This is Wyatt from a year ago. You may want to think about contributing something positive to the convo occasionally instead of "this was basically done X years ago". Some on here are new to the foiling thing and don't necessarily know what all has been done.

Relevant XKCD

Paducah
366 posts
10 Jun 2019 8:38PM
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Select to expand quote
WhiteofHeart said..
Shame the video is gone. Would've enjoyed watching it.

Have to say, for me, surfing on a lake mostly, the fat, low aspect wings don't do it. High aspect / flatter wings are out of the water just as fast, and also work well with small sails, just take a little more pumping. In the air they work much, much better (not so humble opinion). More speed for carving through turns, more speed for flying through lulls, more direct acceleration from pumping in the air, more pop when jumping, and higher jumps because of more speed.

a good high aspect freeride wing, like the 1200 Lokefoil, Horue XLW or F-One Levo900 is really stable at low speeds, but can easily go faster and keep that speed when the wind drops.


I tend to feel the same but this Balz video almost had me opening up my wallet. If I didn't just make some family commitments, I'd be waiting for the postman over the next few days.

segler
97 posts
10 Jun 2019 11:34PM
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I don't think we need to be too concerned about SS using Moses stuff and calling it SS. In all kinds of various industries there is OEM rebranding. Look at automobiles or computers. Or, in our sport, all the various branded boards made by Cobra.

LeeD
476 posts
11 Jun 2019 12:30AM
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Paduhka, don't post old pics.
It gives a false impression for modern foiling.

duzzi
63 posts
11 Jun 2019 1:59AM
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Select to expand quote
7-Nation Aust said..





duzzi said..














AlexF said..
Interessting and some open, critical words about the competitors.
If SS are that open in their communication i'd also like to hear about their connection to Moses, on of the leading brands in kitefoiling and supplier of the SS Ghostwhisper foils.
The new, big Moses wings follow the same design principles like the SS wings, almost looking identical.
I wonder if SS also will sell the full carbon Moses foils under the Ghostwhisper labelling.
I love my Infinity 84 foil, but it's much too heavy. Getting a lighter carbon foil with the same designed wings would open my wallet again.
Could buy Moses tough, but would like to stay with SS.



















The connection is that the SS Ghostwhisper(s) are nothing else but the Moses Vento(s). It is very disconcerting that SS advertised the Ghostwhisper as if it were their development. They probably bet that nobody was going to notice because Moses are built in Europe, Italy to be exact. Only problem is that Sailworks imports Moses to the U.S. www.sailworks.com/the-gear/foiling/windfoils/moses-vento-101-windfoil.html and it does not take much to realize that they are identical.

Quite a strident case of kind false advertisement!








Tony Logosz (Slingshot Designer & Co-Founder) shared the Infinity wing designs & shapes (vento) to get them built in the Moses factory. And paid for half the tooling costs!

They won't be getting built there next season, due to some issues, which I'll leave up to your imagination as to what.

Slingy have a new factory lined up for a full carbon fiber foil platform being released called Phantasm.

These will feature the next generation of Tony's wing designs.

And make carbon fiber parts for the Hover Glide platform.









duzzi said..

Quite a strident case of kind false advertisement!








Yes on Moses end...

We had prototypes here in Oz of the Slingy Infinity wing (Vento) back in 2017.






Moses has been producing Race Kite foils for a looong time and it was marketing the Vento at least one year before SS announced their "version" claiming it was "new". No matter who got there first and how it got there you do not "hide" the development process in your advertisement. It also seems a bit unwise to bad mouth your (past) collaboration like it seems you are doing ... Look at Exocet. They have a whole line of foils for 2019, and it is VERY clear that are made/developed in collaboration with Taaroa.

Paducah
366 posts
11 Jun 2019 2:47AM
Thumbs Up

Select to expand quote
LeeD said..
Paduhka, don't post old pics.
It gives a false impression for modern foiling.



What? Balz's video is two weeks old. That's the only foiling "image" I've posted in this thread and quite relevant to the discussion at hand. XKCD has nothing to do with foiling - try to keep up, please.

Back to the topic at hand - so was the genesis for the Infinity wings with SS or Moses? I seem to be reading conflicting posts here. The Infinity were a huge step up from the previous year's blue wings in both performance and construction from what I can tell and have seen up close.

7-Nation Aust
QLD, 111 posts
11 Jun 2019 9:29AM
Thumbs Up

Select to expand quote
duzzi said..



7-Nation Aust said..








duzzi said..

















AlexF said..
Interessting and some open, critical words about the competitors.
If SS are that open in their communication i'd also like to hear about their connection to Moses, on of the leading brands in kitefoiling and supplier of the SS Ghostwhisper foils.
The new, big Moses wings follow the same design principles like the SS wings, almost looking identical.
I wonder if SS also will sell the full carbon Moses foils under the Ghostwhisper labelling.
I love my Infinity 84 foil, but it's much too heavy. Getting a lighter carbon foil with the same designed wings would open my wallet again.
Could buy Moses tough, but would like to stay with SS.






















The connection is that the SS Ghostwhisper(s) are nothing else but the Moses Vento(s). It is very disconcerting that SS advertised the Ghostwhisper as if it were their development. They probably bet that nobody was going to notice because Moses are built in Europe, Italy to be exact. Only problem is that Sailworks imports Moses to the U.S. www.sailworks.com/the-gear/foiling/windfoils/moses-vento-101-windfoil.html and it does not take much to realize that they are identical.

Quite a strident case of kind false advertisement!











Tony Logosz (Slingshot Designer & Co-Founder) shared the Infinity wing designs & shapes (vento) to get them built in the Moses factory. And paid for half the tooling costs!

They won't be getting built there next season, due to some issues, which I'll leave up to your imagination as to what.

Slingy have a new factory lined up for a full carbon fiber foil platform being released called Phantasm.

These will feature the next generation of Tony's wing designs.

And make carbon fiber parts for the Hover Glide platform.












duzzi said..

Quite a strident case of kind false advertisement!











Yes on Moses end...

We had prototypes here in Oz of the Slingy Infinity wing (Vento) back in 2017.









Moses has been producing Race Kite foils for a looong time and it was marketing the Vento at least one year before SS announced their "version" claiming it was "new". No matter who got there first and how it got there you do not "hide" the development process in your advertisement. It also seems a bit unwise to bad mouth your (past) collaboration like it seems you are doing ... Look at Exocet. They have a whole line of foils for 2019, and it is VERY clear that are made/developed in collaboration with Taaroa.




Not bad mouthing anyone. Just trying to educate on who actually came up with the designs, because it is not fair that companies take credit on things they didn't design.

There's a lot of stuff that could be posted to prove otherwise, but it would essentially be throwing people under the bus. Not what is trying to be accomplished here.

Yes Moses have a background in race foils and have an amazing construction. That's why SS teamed up with them to have them build the GW foils.

No they didn't come up with the Infinity wing shape. That is used on the Hoverglide, Ghost Whisperer & Vento.

Like I said, we have early production prototypes of those shapes back in 2017.(made with the old style blue construction)

Let alone seeing photos of even early versions of that shape on Tony's photos.

duzzi
63 posts
11 Jun 2019 11:59PM
Thumbs Up

Select to expand quote
7-Nation Aust said..








duzzi said..











7-Nation Aust said..
















duzzi said..

























AlexF said..
Interessting and some open, critical words about the competitors.
If SS are that open in their communication i'd also like to hear about their connection to Moses, on of the leading brands in kitefoiling and supplier of the SS Ghostwhisper foils.
The new, big Moses wings follow the same design principles like the SS wings, almost looking identical.
I wonder if SS also will sell the full carbon Moses foils under the Ghostwhisper labelling.
I love my Infinity 84 foil, but it's much too heavy. Getting a lighter carbon foil with the same designed wings would open my wallet again.
Could buy Moses tough, but would like to stay with SS.






























The connection is that the SS Ghostwhisper(s) are nothing else but the Moses Vento(s). It is very disconcerting that SS advertised the Ghostwhisper as if it were their development. They probably bet that nobody was going to notice because Moses are built in Europe, Italy to be exact. Only problem is that Sailworks imports Moses to the U.S. www.sailworks.com/the-gear/foiling/windfoils/moses-vento-101-windfoil.html and it does not take much to realize that they are identical.

Quite a strident case of kind false advertisement!



















Tony Logosz (Slingshot Designer & Co-Founder) shared the Infinity wing designs & shapes (vento) to get them built in the Moses factory. And paid for half the tooling costs!

They won't be getting built there next season, due to some issues, which I'll leave up to your imagination as to what.

Slingy have a new factory lined up for a full carbon fiber foil platform being released called Phantasm.

These will feature the next generation of Tony's wing designs.

And make carbon fiber parts for the Hover Glide platform.




















duzzi said..

Quite a strident case of kind false advertisement!



















Yes on Moses end...

We had prototypes here in Oz of the Slingy Infinity wing (Vento) back in 2017.

















Moses has been producing Race Kite foils for a looong time and it was marketing the Vento at least one year before SS announced their "version" claiming it was "new". No matter who got there first and how it got there you do not "hide" the development process in your advertisement. It also seems a bit unwise to bad mouth your (past) collaboration like it seems you are doing ... Look at Exocet. They have a whole line of foils for 2019, and it is VERY clear that are made/developed in collaboration with Taaroa.











... ... ...

No they didn't come up with the Infinity wing shape. That is used on the Hoverglide, Ghost Whisperer & Vento.

Like I said, we have early production prototypes of those shapes back in 2017.(made with the old style blue construction)

Let alone seeing photos of even early versions of that shape on Tony's photos.









Sorry but are we talking apples vs oranges? The Infinity wing shape does not have anything to do with the VENTO (or GhostWhisperer). the Infinity is a high lift freeride foil, the Vento uses Moses Competition/Freerace foil ... maybe you should try a bit more accuracy if you want to educate us or throw people under the Bus?



gorgesailor
171 posts
12 Jun 2019 12:37AM
Thumbs Up

Select to expand quote
duzzi said..

7-Nation Aust said..









duzzi said..












7-Nation Aust said..

















duzzi said..


























AlexF said..
Interessting and some open, critical words about the competitors.
If SS are that open in their communication i'd also like to hear about their connection to Moses, on of the leading brands in kitefoiling and supplier of the SS Ghostwhisper foils.
The new, big Moses wings follow the same design principles like the SS wings, almost looking identical.
I wonder if SS also will sell the full carbon Moses foils under the Ghostwhisper labelling.
I love my Infinity 84 foil, but it's much too heavy. Getting a lighter carbon foil with the same designed wings would open my wallet again.
Could buy Moses tough, but would like to stay with SS.































The connection is that the SS Ghostwhisper(s) are nothing else but the Moses Vento(s). It is very disconcerting that SS advertised the Ghostwhisper as if it were their development. They probably bet that nobody was going to notice because Moses are built in Europe, Italy to be exact. Only problem is that Sailworks imports Moses to the U.S. www.sailworks.com/the-gear/foiling/windfoils/moses-vento-101-windfoil.html and it does not take much to realize that they are identical.

Quite a strident case of kind false advertisement!




















Tony Logosz (Slingshot Designer & Co-Founder) shared the Infinity wing designs & shapes (vento) to get them built in the Moses factory. And paid for half the tooling costs!

They won't be getting built there next season, due to some issues, which I'll leave up to your imagination as to what.

Slingy have a new factory lined up for a full carbon fiber foil platform being released called Phantasm.

These will feature the next generation of Tony's wing designs.

And make carbon fiber parts for the Hover Glide platform.





















duzzi said..

Quite a strident case of kind false advertisement!




















Yes on Moses end...

We had prototypes here in Oz of the Slingy Infinity wing (Vento) back in 2017.


















Moses has been producing Race Kite foils for a looong time and it was marketing the Vento at least one year before SS announced their "version" claiming it was "new". No matter who got there first and how it got there you do not "hide" the development process in your advertisement. It also seems a bit unwise to bad mouth your (past) collaboration like it seems you are doing ... Look at Exocet. They have a whole line of foils for 2019, and it is VERY clear that are made/developed in collaboration with Taaroa.












... ... ...

No they didn't come up with the Infinity wing shape. That is used on the Hoverglide, Ghost Whisperer & Vento.

Like I said, we have early production prototypes of those shapes back in 2017.(made with the old style blue construction)

Let alone seeing photos of even early versions of that shape on Tony's photos.










Sorry but are we talking apples vs oranges? The Infinity wing shape does not have anything to do with the VENTO (or GhostWhisperer). the Infinity is a high lift freeride foil, the Vento uses Moses Competition/Freerace foil ... maybe you should try a bit more accuracy if you want to educate us or throw people under the Bus?





You seem confused DUzzi. What wing are you saying is a Moses wing? Only similarity I see is the mast?

Paducah
366 posts
12 Jun 2019 1:49AM
Thumbs Up

Select to expand quote
duzzi said..


Sorry but are we talking apples vs oranges? The Infinity wing shape does not have anything to do with the VENTO (or GhostWhisperer). the Infinity is a high lift freeride foil, the Vento uses Moses Competition/Freerace foil ... maybe you should try a bit more accuracy if you want to educate us or throw people under the Bus?





Vento 85 - store.moseshydrofoil.com/products/kit-vento-85 and 790 front wing

duzzi
63 posts
12 Jun 2019 11:29AM
Thumbs Up

Select to expand quote
Paducah said..


duzzi said..


Sorry but are we talking apples vs oranges? The Infinity wing shape does not have anything to do with the VENTO (or GhostWhisperer). the Infinity is a high lift freeride foil, the Vento uses Moses Competition/Freerace foil ... maybe you should try a bit more accuracy if you want to educate us or throw people under the Bus?








Vento 85 - store.moseshydrofoil.com/products/kit-vento-85 and 790 front wing






Select to expand quote
gorgesailor said..


duzzi said..



7-Nation Aust said..











duzzi said..














7-Nation Aust said..



















duzzi said..




























AlexF said..
Interessting and some open, critical words about the competitors.
If SS are that open in their communication i'd also like to hear about their connection to Moses, on of the leading brands in kitefoiling and supplier of the SS Ghostwhisper foils.
The new, big Moses wings follow the same design principles like the SS wings, almost looking identical.
I wonder if SS also will sell the full carbon Moses foils under the Ghostwhisper labelling.
I love my Infinity 84 foil, but it's much too heavy. Getting a lighter carbon foil with the same designed wings would open my wallet again.
Could buy Moses tough, but would like to stay with SS.

































The connection is that the SS Ghostwhisper(s) are nothing else but the Moses Vento(s). It is very disconcerting that SS advertised the Ghostwhisper as if it were their development. They probably bet that nobody was going to notice because Moses are built in Europe, Italy to be exact. Only problem is that Sailworks imports Moses to the U.S. www.sailworks.com/the-gear/foiling/windfoils/moses-vento-101-windfoil.html and it does not take much to realize that they are identical.

Quite a strident case of kind false advertisement!






















Tony Logosz (Slingshot Designer & Co-Founder) shared the Infinity wing designs & shapes (vento) to get them built in the Moses factory. And paid for half the tooling costs!

They won't be getting built there next season, due to some issues, which I'll leave up to your imagination as to what.

Slingy have a new factory lined up for a full carbon fiber foil platform being released called Phantasm.

These will feature the next generation of Tony's wing designs.

And make carbon fiber parts for the Hover Glide platform.























duzzi said..

Quite a strident case of kind false advertisement!






















Yes on Moses end...

We had prototypes here in Oz of the Slingy Infinity wing (Vento) back in 2017.




















Moses has been producing Race Kite foils for a looong time and it was marketing the Vento at least one year before SS announced their "version" claiming it was "new". No matter who got there first and how it got there you do not "hide" the development process in your advertisement. It also seems a bit unwise to bad mouth your (past) collaboration like it seems you are doing ... Look at Exocet. They have a whole line of foils for 2019, and it is VERY clear that are made/developed in collaboration with Taaroa.














... ... ...

No they didn't come up with the Infinity wing shape. That is used on the Hoverglide, Ghost Whisperer & Vento.

Like I said, we have early production prototypes of those shapes back in 2017.(made with the old style blue construction)

Let alone seeing photos of even early versions of that shape on Tony's photos.












Sorry but are we talking apples vs oranges? The Infinity wing shape does not have anything to do with the VENTO (or GhostWhisperer). the Infinity is a high lift freeride foil, the Vento uses Moses Competition/Freerace foil ... maybe you should try a bit more accuracy if you want to educate us or throw people under the Bus?








You seem confused DUzzi. What wing are you saying is a Moses wing? Only similarity I see is the mast?





No, he is 7-Nation Aust who is confused. He said: "No they didn't come up with the Infinity wing shape. That is used on the Hoverglide, Ghost Whisperer & Vento." Which is just a false statement.

Yes, The infinity wing shape, or something similar to it, is used on the just released MOSES VENTO 85 HF.

No, It is does not belong at all with the Ghost Whisperer.

And yes, the Ghost Whisperer is a copy-cat of the MOSES VENTO 101/111, that Moses had on the market at least one year before SS claimed it as new ...

7-Nation Aust
QLD, 111 posts
12 Jun 2019 2:26PM
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Select to expand quote
Paducah said..

duzzi said..


Sorry but are we talking apples vs oranges? The Infinity wing shape does not have anything to do with the VENTO (or GhostWhisperer). the Infinity is a high lift freeride foil, the Vento uses Moses Competition/Freerace foil ... maybe you should try a bit more accuracy if you want to educate us or throw people under the Bus?






Vento 85 - store.moseshydrofoil.com/products/kit-vento-85 and 790 front wing



Vento 790 & 850 is based off the Hover Glide platform Infinity series which was released before Moses brought there's out mate....

Not talking about the race foils.

Argue all you want. Have you actually spoken to Moses? We work with Slingshot directly and this is the direct line of communication we have received on this.







duzzi
63 posts
12 Jun 2019 2:45PM
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Select to expand quote
7-Nation Aust said..




Paducah said..





duzzi said..


Sorry but are we talking apples vs oranges? The Infinity wing shape does not have anything to do with the VENTO (or GhostWhisperer). the Infinity is a high lift freeride foil, the Vento uses Moses Competition/Freerace foil ... maybe you should try a bit more accuracy if you want to educate us or throw people under the Bus?










Vento 85 - store.moseshydrofoil.com/products/kit-vento-85 and 790 front wing







Vento 790 & 850 is based off the Hover Glide platform Infinity series which was released before Moses brought there's out mate....

Not talking about the race foils.

Argue all you want. Have you actually spoken to Moses? We work with Slingshot directly and this is the direct line of communication we have received on this.








It is you who mention the GhostWhisper (that is the race foil MOSES VENTO 111) claiming that MOSES copied it, not me. So just admit that you miss-spoke and that Moses IS the company that developed it.

And of course I have not "spoken to Moses". Why would I need to speak with them? Please drop the name-dropping superiority-complex!

boardsurfr
WA, 795 posts
12 Jun 2019 8:40PM
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Select to expand quote
duzzi said..
And of course I have not "spoken to Moses". Why would I need to speak with them? Please drop the name-dropping superiority-complex!

You are totally out of line. If you are trying to establish that you are a male donkey, you have succeeded.

There are at least a couple of dozen foil companies out there, with two basic foil shapes - stretched and delta. Claiming one of them invented either shape makes little sense. Even adding winglets like on the Infinity foils is a rather obvious idea. If one company comes up with a modification and the other one copies it to make better foils, that's a good thing for anyone buying foils.

Both Moses and Slingshot have been developing foils for quite a long time. Slingshot has been quite good in the US in getting their products into stores, and giving windsurfers an opportunity to test before buying. Their brand manager is one of the top windsurfers in the US. Foils are easily available. They are located at one of the top windsurfing spots in the US.

In contrast, the Moses web site lists all complete windsurfing foils as "Out of stock". They show 15 team riders "who help us develop the line" - all of them kiters, not a single windfoiler. They are located near Rimini on the Mediterranean Sea. That's not a windsurfing hotspot (unlike Lake Garda, Lago di Como, Sardinia, or even Sicily). Their offerings are mostly on the racing side - probably because they have very good expertise in carbon construction.

I think this paints a pretty clear picture who might have benefitted from whom in which area.

Windbot
76 posts
12 Jun 2019 10:51PM
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Fun fact: Moses' parent company is SAB, they make high performance r/c helicopters. They have experience with carbon fiber from making r/c heli blades which share some similarities to foiling equipment. Slingshot's roots go way back to the Logosz boards Wyatt alluded to in the video.



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"Freeride/wave/freestyle foils explained" started by azymuth