Forums > Windsurfing Foiling

Light wind session

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Created by Cluffy 4 months ago, 29 Dec 2018
Cluffy
NSW, 344 posts
29 Dec 2018 1:26PM
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I took this footage in a 5 to 10 knot easterly at Marmong the other day. Some of the gusts might have been 11 or 12 knots but mostly it was under 10 knots. The board is a JP 135 and the foil is a Moses freeride. store.moseshydrofoil.com/products/wind-foil-vento101-fr . The sail is an 8.0 metre NCX on a 460 RDM gorilla mast and my X9 wave boom. I run this mast/boom combo only when foiling in light stuff for reduced weight and a softer feel. I'm very happy with the Moses foil it has a deep mast with a lot of surface area. If you keep it low it is quite stable.

There's a lot of hitting waves going in the movie. That's fine by me. I'm still learning and I started enjoying it more and breaching less when I stopped stressing out about hitting waves. I found the GPS info very interesting. I was amazed to see the foil popping at only 10 to 11 knots of speed! I'm a fatty at the moment at 90kg, I wonder what speed a lighter rider would pop at? or maybe it is a case of same board speed just less wind needed.

My back arm is very bent at times. This is due to the quite tight apparent wind at times. I was practicing upwind/downwind and I'm still getting a feel for angles. The GPS data is from the GoPro and the gauges are Dashware. The speed is in knots. I decided not to add music. Why spoil the blessed silence. Dig how quiet it is from 9.30 to about 10.00. Gotta love that.

CAN17
213 posts
29 Dec 2018 10:39AM
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Nice video Cluffy. I alway enjoyed you light wind footage (on formula boards etc). How many times on that setup.

HotBodMon
NSW, 305 posts
30 Dec 2018 8:43AM
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Cluffy , on your lightweight rider question , our local foiler Rowan has been hooning along in barely 10knots on a 4.5 wave sail . He is about 65kg. The other day he was overpowered in 13-15 Knots , so he has since bought a 3.7 . Good board pumping technique
Sounds like I'm driving a kingswood and him a statesman caprice when goin for it
Very interesting this foiling thing

Cluffy
NSW, 344 posts
30 Dec 2018 9:49AM
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G'day fellas, I've had the moses foil for about 3 months but I haven't really committed enough to foiling to master it yet. As I improve my commitment goes up as well so hopefully the two will feed off each other. HotBod I think you nailed it with the sail size thing. Wave sails are easier but I want to do some casual racing so I want to get used to more racy sails. I tried a 7 metre severne overdrive on friday in winds gusting a bit over 15 knots. Yeah.. that was pretty bloody scary lol. Upwind was fun but downwind was brown trousers time. 20 knots of speed seems to be my blowup point and I had a couple of clangers. Unfortunately I don't know how to slow down lol.

If the Moses has one weakness it would be pumping. It's a big foil and a bit of an anchor to pump. I need to be sub planing with the front foot in the strap to be able to pump onto the plane.

CJW
NSW, 1518 posts
30 Dec 2018 10:18AM
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What sort of foil is he using where he's getting overpowered on a 4.5 in 13-15kts....so much so he bought a 3.7? Are you sure you didn't accidentally divide by 2 on the windspeed?

I only ask because I'm not dissimilar in weight (68kg) and in 13-15kts with a 8.0m foiling specific race sail i'm smack bang in the party zone sail power wise. Yeah sure when racing being overpowered is the name of the game but a 3.7....wut. Are talking Balz Muller freestyle foiling shenanigans here or simply just foiling around?

HotBodMon
NSW, 305 posts
30 Dec 2018 11:57AM
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CJM pretty sure it's a levitator 2019 really wide ( like 90cm ?) stumpy looking board . He got overpowered on the smallest mast it comes with I think the 60cm one ? Kinda hope he's reading this and chimes in. To be fair ,where we sail is in a harbour with wind shadows and multi directional bullets at times , quite crap sailing spot really but I came along for the ride and to share the shark attack paranoia.
My board is a atomiq 104 and i have a 6.7 that I need about a 13-15 knot gust with adequate pumping to release so it FELT like 15 knots anyways.
But yeah it was his 4th time foiling and was making gybes , he has impressive light wind skills on a regular freeride.
There must have been at least half a dozen violent catapults right beside me , so some nice new smashie smashie up the front .
Not quite balz muller stuff ( that guys a freq ) just learning / experimental phase.
Maybe rowan's the next balz in the making , he does seem to float like an angel when it's 25knots and chopped to bits , but the green envy eyes start staring when he's having a ball with not a white cap in sight

smellme
11 posts
30 Dec 2018 3:18PM
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Just to add another data point, I'm 67kg and ride SB freeride with SB 122 foil bord. For me in 13-15kts the perfect sail is NS hero 5.3.

WhiteofHeart
104 posts
30 Dec 2018 3:51PM
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CJW said..
What sort of foil is he using where he's getting overpowered on a 4.5 in 13-15kts....so much so he bought a 3.7? Are you sure you didn't accidentally divide by 2 on the windspeed?

I only ask because I'm not dissimilar in weight (68kg) and in 13-15kts with a 8.0m foiling specific race sail i'm smack bang in the party zone sail power wise. Yeah sure when racing being overpowered is the name of the game but a 3.7....wut. Are talking Balz Muller freestyle foiling shenanigans here or simply just foiling around?



With my 86kgs I do 3.6 in 14 kts and up until 30+. You guys should be able to do smaller (if you want to ofcourse, for me it is the ultimate goal). It takes a change in technique and dependence on sail preassure to get going, but in the air it is doable. I'm conversing with philipe of horue about purchasing a 2.5m at the moment for winds 18 kts and up. In 14 kts for the 'freestyle shenanigans' as you put it I'd pick my 4.8, because that is obviously faster, but with the 3.6 you unlock a form of gliding freedom not found when more powered up (tacking through jibes, sailing backwinded/clewfirst easy, various sailstalls). My lower limit with my 3.6 at the moment is due to my board. Its dimensions are OK for small sail light wind, with 70x180, but its 92L means I'll have to pump myself up to the surface before I can pump up on the foil, which is tiring. I'm looking for a 100-110L 70x150cm kind of board to really unlock the true potential. For light wind magic the entire set is very important, for a formulaboard will not get going nearly as early as a 70 wide with a small sail. This effect becomes bigger when using a low aspect foil, because you are standing so far away from the wingtips, the wings need a lot of speed to provide the power even that far out. In my opinion for light wind freeriding a 70 wide very compact and square tailed board + 1200 relatively fast freeridewing + a backhand powered freestyle or wave sail is the way to go (for now at least, never know what I'll discover with the 1600 supwing I ordered, but I think the change in flying threshold is minimal, but change in speed significant). Having the power on the backhand also tremendously improves early flight, because backhand power is easier to transfer into backfoot power during the pumping.

in the air in really minimal winds (3.6 when similarly weighing 8.6's and 7.8's are floating their way back to shore because it died out), the trick is to stay in the air as long as possible, so fly through all the jibes ('oh is that all??' - edit: in my experience duckjibes need less wond to keep flying and allow for thighter turns that regular jibes, therefore they are my jibe of choice underpowered), and to try and plan your path from gust to gust, trying to stay in the gust by jibing in the right spot as long as possible, and minimising the distance to the next one! Learning to efficiently pump the foil in the air is also a great help, for I can 'easily' keep going in sub 10 knots with 3.6 and make it feel relatively powered up due to the higher speeds (need to take a breather after some time though, that stuff is exhausting..).

CJW
NSW, 1518 posts
30 Dec 2018 9:45PM
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I see where you're coming from trying to use the smallest possible sail to foil but a lot of what you wrote I'd have to see to believe is because it fly's in the face of my experience over the years of windsurfing and foiling. 86kgs getting a 92L board going with a foil in 14kts, lets say even 18kts with a 3.6? Seriously? I need to see it I mean it's so out of the box to what I'd consider possible I have never considered putting my smallest sail (4.2) on my foil setup in such light wind....but I guess I need to try it before I knock it right.

I'm coming from a course racing perspective of foiling so using a small sail is not a possibility even at my weight (~68kg). When it's light, say 8-10kts, realistically the minimum you can race in, the board speeds are so high compared to the windspeed that you need big rigs to generate enough power at the angles you want to sail as the apparent wind angle is so acute, as Cluffy mentions in his first post. That's why I use an 8.0 from 8kts all the way to probably 20-22kts. Yeah it's a handful in 20 but you learn how to tune the rig so you can hang in upwind then use all that power to sail super deep downwind. I get that it's totally different to what you're doing, which I guess is why I haven't really considered that end of the spectrum as I'm all about how much sail I can hang onto for how long....that's racing unfortunately

PS sorry to Cluffy for the thread derail but it's an interesting topic none the less and your setup looks perfect for getting into racing. I also run the JP135 but have modified the rear straps by way of winglets to make it much wider, it's very close in rear width to the new starboard race foil board.

Tips for downwind overpowered are just go deep and keep the sail sheeted in at all times, the transition from upwind to downwind is the hardest. You just have to keep sheeted in hard and bear away fast, do not hesitate, do not sheet out, if you sail a reaching angle for any period of time it's not going to end well. The reason to stay sheeted in is because whenever you sheet out off the breeze you reduce the mastfoot pressure, reducing downward pressure on the foil, making it rise and difficult to control. You want to keep the sheeting angle as consistent as possible and steer to the apparent wind, the consistent sheeting angle keeps the mastfoot pressure consistent which gives you much better control over the foil.

WhiteofHeart
104 posts
30 Dec 2018 6:56PM
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Ahahah, I understand, will try to get some video the next time the occasion (and right conditions) arise ;). For me it was hard to believe aswell, but having the windsurfers with 8.6 and 7.8 floating back because of lack of wind, and planing similarly early to 9.x's made me believe ;). To be honest, 14kts might even be a little bit more than I need, but lets keep it on the safe side. It helps that with windfoiling you need way smaller gusts than with windsurfing, in really gusty conditions for us (and I mean short(!) gusts and lulls with a feeling of almost 0 wind, when the wind has to come through an urban area and a lot of trees and such) I'm at an advantage with my 3.6 on the foil compared to the 7.8's and 8.6 with regular boards. add to that that I can keep flying almost indefinately with the big wing and pumping the foil already, it makes a lot more sense I think. Mind you that in these conditions I have pretty much no sail pressure, so hanging in the sail is a no go, and out of the gusts I'm at the very least pumping the back foot. I also compete in the national foil races here, but then I'd be on an 8.6 in the same wind with a formulaboard.

joe windsurf
1456 posts
30 Dec 2018 9:58PM
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smellme said..
Just to add another data point, I'm 67kg and ride SB freeride with SB 122 foil bord. For me in 13-15kts the perfect sail is NS hero 5.3.


this is where my dilemma with foiling comes in
67 kilos with 5.3 should be able to plane in about 17 knots
so, foiling saved about 3 knots
at 100+ kilos the comparable sail would be 8.4
yes, that would plane me in 17 knots, but also cruise quite pleasantly on a longboard
to invest that kinda money for that type of sailing has not got me yet
the ROI/return on investment is lacking - for me
sure the thrills look great, but you will have a hard time convincing this longboarder to invest
one fellow longboarder tried foiling and is going back to SB Phantom

CAN17
213 posts
30 Dec 2018 11:14PM
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I am 65 kg and fly in 7/8 knots with my formula board and blue pryde aluminium foil and 7.5 sail. I get overpowered at about 13 knots on this setup. Have not tried smaller sails as other light weights have above. I have only foiled for one season so far...much more to learn

Sorry for the farther derailment of this thread. But has anyone foiled with there mast base past center in light winds or is it to sticky getting up. I usually run with it way back sometimes even covering the serial #. But my sb 08 is known to be used with the mast base sailed pritty far back.

WhiteofHeart
104 posts
30 Dec 2018 11:55PM
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CAN17 said..
I am 65 kg and fly in 7/8 knots with my formula board and blue pryde aluminium foil and 7.5 sail. I get overpowered at about 13 knots on this setup. Have not tried smaller sails as other light weights have above. I have only foiled for one season so far...much more to learn

Sorry for the farther derailment of this thread. But has anyone foiled with there mast base past center in light winds or is it to sticky getting up. I usually run with it way back sometimes even covering the serial #. But my sb 08 is known to be used with the mast base sailed pritty far back.


I have used the pryde foil quite a lot, nice foil, fast, but not optimal for lightwind. The front wing is small (about half my wing literally), and the power is pretty far back. The further your power is forward the earlier you fly. In light wind I'd put the base as far back as possible with this foil. I used it with a JP135 and the base was at around 123cm for light wind, with the straps all the way back and a washer under the stab for more lift. On my custom board the most forward position of the masttrack corresponds to 123cm from the tail, I mostly use it at around 98-100cm from the tail with a way more front foot powered foil and straps further back (front insert aligned with front screw of the box) than a lot of serial (foil) boards go! This gives an incredible amount of light wind power/performance, but does get quite a handful overpowered when you are not used to it. I designed the dimensions and insert positions together with balz, making it a really extreme, but perfect setup for light wind.

Paducah
335 posts
31 Dec 2018 2:19AM
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joe windsurf said..

...yes, that would plane me in 17 knots, but also cruise quite pleasantly on a longboard



I own a longboard - Equipe II and have sailed and raced longboards for, well, long enough. Cruising a longboard is nothing like being on a foil with hardly a whitecap. It is an incredibly different sensation. My foiling buddy is a wizard on an Equipe - deadly fast and very capable. You'd have to pry his foil out of his cold, dead hands.

I'm all for "different strokes for different folks" (and maybe why your buddy doesn't like it) but making comparisons without really understanding the sensation of foiling can be fraught with error. It's not simply that I'm up with a 5.4 when you are lugging around an 8.5. I could write paragraphs on things I've done, felt and seen on a foil that simply couldn't happen on a formula board, much less a longboard in 10-15.

I will say one thing for foiling - it forces a lot of us old dogs to push way beyond our comfort zone. You will get wet, you will fall, you may ding your board. You will be a newbie all over again. I think that alone keeps some people from trying it. Is it expensive? You can get a decent intro foil for about the cost of a big carbon boom. For most of us, it's the best money we've spent on windsurfing gear in years.

YMMV

smellme
11 posts
31 Dec 2018 2:34AM
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Paducah said..


joe windsurf said..

...yes, that would plane me in 17 knots, but also cruise quite pleasantly on a longboard





I own a longboard - Equipe II and have sailed and raced longboards for, well, long enough. Cruising a longboard is nothing like being on a foil with hardly a whitecap. It is an incredibly different sensation. My foiling buddy is a wizard on an Equipe - deadly fast and very capable. You'd have to pry his foil out of his cold, dead hands.

I'm all for "different strokes for different folks" (and maybe why your buddy doesn't like it) but making comparisons without really understanding the sensation of foiling can be fraught with error. It's not simply that I'm up with a 5.4 when you are lugging around an 8.5. I could write paragraphs on things I've done, felt and seen on a foil that simply couldn't happen on a formula board, much less a longboard in 10-15.

I will say one thing for foiling - it forces a lot of us old dogs to push way beyond our comfort zone. You will get wet, you will fall, you may ding your board. You will be a newbie all over again. I think that alone keeps some people from trying it. Is it expensive? You can get a decent intro foil for about the cost of a big carbon boom. For most of us, it's the best money we've spent on windsurfing gear in years.

YMMV



+1 on everything Paducah said.

Joe windsurf, the comparison that you're making is not fair. Sure, I could plane on 5.3 in 17 knots with regular board but it would be on the border, more work than fun. On the same sail with foil I can have an amazing time on 13-15 knots. The more realistic comparison would be 10-12 knots which would be minimal conditions for me with 5.3 but still way more fun.

joe windsurf
1456 posts
31 Dec 2018 4:11AM
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i was hoping you could all make the merit of foiling clear
especially to longboarders and i believe you have given the longboarder approach
foiling has not quite caught on here YET
am sure it will

WhiteofHeart
104 posts
31 Dec 2018 5:12AM
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joe windsurf said..
i was hoping you could all make the merit of foiling clear
especially to longboarders and i believe you have given the longboarder approach
foiling has not quite caught on here YET
am sure it will




Joe, first up, I have really appreciated your blogs when I started windsurfing, and still read some of them a few days back! Keep it up! ;)

As to answer your question, to me foiling is an entirely different sport. I have sailed on a longboard a few times, but never felt drawn towards it. I do like longboards in a competative situation, but have found foiling a better alternative for courseracing for me. In winds 6 kts and up for me, and 8 knots and up for the people with a little less dedicated gear and time to sail the foil delivers the same or better speed and direction up and downwind compared to the longboard. In addition it is a lot less heavy, not only because of the use of smaller sails, but also because of the low drag. I feel it is also easier to handle in gusts and extremely varying conditions and chop, also being lighter on the knees.

on top of that, to come back to the initial point, it is a completely different sport. In windsurfing I had hit a ceiling in progression with light winds. I was the fastest on my spot in 10-14 kts and the earliest to plane, I had my planing jibe sorted, and in more wind my spock and speedloop. It took so much time to learn something new that the allure of windsurfing diminished a little for me, foiling has brought the enthousiasm back. Like I said above, I have over 300 foilsessions already in the past 2 years, in conditions varying from 6 knots to 50 knots, and never went on the water with my foilkit without at least flying a few reaches. The learning curve is tremendous, and I still learn new things every day.

In line with what I wrote above about foiling being an entirely different sport, the new sensations it delivers are a very big part of what keeps me hooked. The feeling of flying above the water is incredibly serene, for me especially so when I take out the smallest kit possible, for at that point I'm just relaxing on the board and enjoying, and nothing else, doing jibe after jibe after jibe, being able to keep flying in a space as small as 100x50m (we have a little bay on our lake where I like to go to impress the crowds). And then I haven't even discussed the feeling of putting the hammer down upwind, going 20 knots, but higher upwind than possible with a longboard, completely silent without touching the water. A little less powered up, in 8 knots, my mates and I just bring a few beers and cruise along together, In complete silence, serenity and ease, because the foil is so much more controlable (especially in 8 knots of wind).

And then there is the part of foiling in more wind, being powered up on a 4.8 or 4.0, doing the backies and speedloops on flat water, getting the crowds to go crazy about the height of the jumps so to speak ;). Lately I have been taking my foilkit out into the north sea. I have to admit waveriding is still a little tricky for me (I have heard the north sea shore in the Netherlands is one of the hardest shorebreaks in the world, and I have never been in the waves without a foil), but launching the foil kit from a 2-3m wave is just crazy, the amount of air and time I have to complete my rotation is just absurd, on top of that, direct onshore winds and currents are no longer a problem, I can just get up and surf out, while most are walking back to their startingpoint.

Add a little sun, warm weather and nothing beats foiling for me. I hope I was convincing ;).

P.S sorry for derailing even more, have been trying to study, but its not really working out so far, and there hasn't been over 2 knots of wind here for over a week, which is a long time to not sail for me...

CAN17
213 posts
31 Dec 2018 6:06AM
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WhiteofHeart said..

CAN17 said..
I am 65 kg and fly in 7/8 knots with my formula board and blue pryde aluminium foil and 7.5 sail. I get overpowered at about 13 knots on this setup. Have not tried smaller sails as other light weights have above. I have only foiled for one season so far...much more to learn

Sorry for the farther derailment of this thread. But has anyone foiled with there mast base past center in light winds or is it to sticky getting up. I usually run with it way back sometimes even covering the serial #. But my sb 08 is known to be used with the mast base sailed pritty far back.



I have used the pryde foil quite a lot, nice foil, fast, but not optimal for lightwind. The front wing is small (about half my wing literally), and the power is pretty far back. The further your power is forward the earlier you fly. In light wind I'd put the base as far back as possible with this foil. I used it with a JP135 and the base was at around 123cm for light wind, with the straps all the way back and a washer under the stab for more lift. On my custom board the most forward position of the masttrack corresponds to 123cm from the tail, I mostly use it at around 98-100cm from the tail with a way more front foot powered foil and straps further back (front insert aligned with front screw of the box) than a lot of serial (foil) boards go! This gives an incredible amount of light wind power/performance, but does get quite a handful overpowered when you are not used to it. I designed the dimensions and insert positions together with balz, making it a really extreme, but perfect setup for light wind.


Yah, i find it lacking lift in anything below 8 kts. Im light so can get by in light winds with the back washer in. But would amgine the amount of lift significantly lower for a bigger rider. Just a guess but a 100kg rider could probably get going in 12knots with same setup? Didn't realise it has the front wing too far back but makes sence. The wing is 72cm so not that big either, hence why I have run with the base all the way back in light winds. Are manufatures not able to make g10 ( low cost wings) in 80cm+ in span without being overly thick.

What foil are you using in light winds? Fuse length, wing size??
I appreciate you detailed replys and love for the sport!

KDog
41 posts
31 Dec 2018 7:54AM
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Wow great thread me I am a total novice just learning for me foiling is not about getting going in less wind although thats a bonus,its just the fact that your riding a small wing that has a tremenndous amount of lift and once up on the foil the board really means nothing its just a place to hang out and work the sail. Where i want my foiling to go is ride the smallest compact board that I can feel comfortable on and carry the least amount of gear light wind stronger wind. Will it ever replace wave sailing I dont know but it still early.

joe windsurf
1456 posts
31 Dec 2018 8:24AM
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what you may or may not know, I windsurf in the North American winter - on ice and snow
just 2 days ago I was in 10 kph winds on ideal ice conditions and having a riot
this is what is bringing me towards foiling ...
REALLY light winds with an old 2007 SailWorks Retro 8 meter sail and flying
NO harness required and it was quiet
that is my analogy with light wind foiling
since i have not tried it


that pic was not taken on the ideal ice day, but you get the idea ...
i guess soon I will be drooling over foiling
am currently deciding on purchasing a newer longboard or AFS 85 foil ...

HotBodMon
NSW, 305 posts
31 Dec 2018 11:56AM
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This is my future predictions for the sport



Cluffy
NSW, 344 posts
31 Dec 2018 1:04PM
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Great stuff fella's love your work. It seems like wave sails are the go for free riding and bigger sails for deeper downwind angles.

Joe Windsurf, I've been windsurfing on and off since the mid 80's so when I go for a windsurf it's become like hook in, hit autopilot and read the newspaper. My style is very much based around using my harness to do almost everything. None of this works on the foil. It's a completely new learning process and it's that new challenge that keeps sucking me in. I actually have to concentrate hard and apply myself, something I keep slipping up at with sometimes painful results. Joe that ice sailing looks amazing but the prospect of coming off on concrete worries me a little lol. I don't bounce like I used to.

WhiteofHeart
104 posts
31 Dec 2018 4:33PM
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CAN17 said..




WhiteofHeart said..





CAN17 said..
I am 65 kg and fly in 7/8 knots with my formula board and blue pryde aluminium foil and 7.5 sail. I get overpowered at about 13 knots on this setup. Have not tried smaller sails as other light weights have above. I have only foiled for one season so far...much more to learn

Sorry for the farther derailment of this thread. But has anyone foiled with there mast base past center in light winds or is it to sticky getting up. I usually run with it way back sometimes even covering the serial #. But my sb 08 is known to be used with the mast base sailed pritty far back.







I have used the pryde foil quite a lot, nice foil, fast, but not optimal for lightwind. The front wing is small (about half my wing literally), and the power is pretty far back. The further your power is forward the earlier you fly. In light wind I'd put the base as far back as possible with this foil. I used it with a JP135 and the base was at around 123cm for light wind, with the straps all the way back and a washer under the stab for more lift. On my custom board the most forward position of the masttrack corresponds to 123cm from the tail, I mostly use it at around 98-100cm from the tail with a way more front foot powered foil and straps further back (front insert aligned with front screw of the box) than a lot of serial (foil) boards go! This gives an incredible amount of light wind power/performance, but does get quite a handful overpowered when you are not used to it. I designed the dimensions and insert positions together with balz, making it a really extreme, but perfect setup for light wind.






Yah, i find it lacking lift in anything below 8 kts. Im light so can get by in light winds with the back washer in. But would amgine the amount of lift significantly lower for a bigger rider. Just a guess but a 100kg rider could probably get going in 12knots with same setup? Didn't realise it has the front wing too far back but makes sence. The wing is 72cm so not that big either, hence why I have run with the base all the way back in light winds. Are manufatures not able to make g10 ( low cost wings) in 80cm+ in span without being overly thick.

What foil are you using in light winds? Fuse length, wing size??
I appreciate you detailed replys and love for the sport!





I think the pryde alu is great value for money (compared to the rest of the market at least), so in that respect I think they did great. On top of that it is one of the stiffest (if not the stiffest) alu foils on the market, meaning also good to use for heavier riders, I do however think you are right, a 100+kg rider would need 11-12 knots to get going with it, so its not ideal for light wind. I wouldn't say thefront wing is too far back, it is jibable when coupled with the JP135 and when set up right, but having it a little further forward just improves lift. The problem with g10 is that stiffness and thickness are 1:1 related with this material, meaning a larger wing has to also be a lot thicker to be stiff. On top of that, I think they want to be able to guarantee stiffness for everyone, and when supplying a bigger wing, the torsional forces on the front of the fuselage get bigger, add to that a 100+kg rider, and they might feel a little less confident of its performance at pryde group.

I have 2 foils I use a lot. For racing and light wind / small sail freeriding I use the Lokefoil LK1, one of the stiffest and fastest full carbon monoque construction foils available on the market. For the small sails I use a 1200cm2 wing, with a bigger sail in minimal wind or during courseraces I have a 1000cm2 wing, similar to the starboard millenium wing. For more wind and more powered up/down racing I have an 850cm2 wing, and speed a 600cm2 (with which I clocked 58.68 kph, which I think is quite fast). The fuselage isn't that long, around 85-90cm I believe, but the front wings location relative to the foilmast is similar to that of the starboard race, resulting in a lot of front foot power and lift. The position of the stabiliser relative to the mast is of less importance, especially for freeriding. Having the stab further back increases stability a little, but mostly 'locks' the foil in place more, meaning it is easier to bank the board over to windward and lock it in place. For freeriding and the occasional race like I do this is unnecessary, and I actually believe that even for racers it isn't necessary, since (I believe it was him, but correct me if I'm wrong) Thomas Goyard won a foil PWA using the Loke, and it wins a lot of national events.

however, since a couple of months I have been helping the kitebrand F-One in their windfoil R&D, their foil is at the moment my foil of choice for freestyle from about 10 knots, their biggest windfoil wing is 900cm2, meaning I need a little more sail (5.7 in 10kts compared to 4.8 with the loke1200), but it is very stable and easy to sail, is fast enough, and above all, the brand philosophy is to try to present an indestructable product which can be used by any level in any conditions, and has to be able to put up with the extreme forces of freestyle windfoiling. Until I discovered F-One I broke a number of foils and wings in one way or another, thus making F-One my foil of choice. Lately I have been testing different prototype fuselages and masts, which made me aware of the effect especially the mast placement on the fuselage has. For the next series (2020) we are putting the front wing further forward (mast further back on the fuselage), also for freeriding purposes (not only for racers) as it opens up jibing a lot more and enhances light wind potential. I am waiting (and hoping because it is not my in my hands) for F-One to make me a bigger wing, for I cannot jump the Loke without risking damage (I am quite heavy with 86kgs, and its design objective was making a racing foil), but do like the feeling of being able to use even smaller sails. I will try the supwing for windfoiling soon, but am having my doubts, with the needed fuselage distance to the mast, which is 0cm as with most supfoils, and the wingshape as explained below.

In my experience the one light wind wing isn't as good as the other to get most out of the light wind performance. I have tried thick, low aspect wings like the naish for light wind, but did not like it. The LK1200 is a freeride wing, but still very high aspect compared to most, making it more efficient. It is thinner than most, has a 92cm wingspan, and 16cm chord. (My racing LK1000 wing is 96cmx11cm I believe, with an even thinner profile and a smaller angle of attack, making it even more efficient, but also less powerful, therfore the use with bigger sails) I feel this is better for light wind in the end, because a more efficient wing will attain higher speeds, increasing relative wind, meaning you'll just be more powered up in minimal conditions compared to a low aspect wing. On top of that, due to its higher speed and lower drag it glides better in the lulls.

The reason I have a low aspect wing in my quiver (F-One 850) is because it delivers a softer feel, I use this wing overpowered a lot in freestyle conditions, and it greatly improves handling, ease in gusts and ease of mind (because it is less fast) compared to a similarly powerful high aspect wing. I think in the higher ranges is where the lower aspect wings belong, because no efficiency is needed there and ease of use becomes a bigger part of the equation. Ofcourse the low aspect wings have the advantage of having more float, meaning they need less speed and pumping to get out of the water, but for me personally the tradeoff with endspeed, acceleration and amount of drag isn't worth it, I'd rather work a little harder to get going with a more efficient shape (which isnt a problem for me), than be stuck falling out of the sky in the lulls and feeling chronically underpowered.

Paducah
335 posts
31 Dec 2018 11:55PM
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joe windsurf said..
what you may or may not know, I windsurf in the North American winter - on ice and snow
just 2 days ago I was in 10 kph winds on ideal ice conditions and having a riot
this is what is bringing me towards foiling ...
REALLY light winds with an old 2007 SailWorks Retro 8 meter sail and flying
NO harness required and it was quiet
that is my analogy with light wind foiling
since i have not tried it


that pic was not taken on the ideal ice day, but you get the idea ...
i guess soon I will be drooling over foiling
am currently deciding on purchasing a newer longboard or AFS 85 foil ...


Point well taken. Now imagine all the fun of sailing on ice and snow and doing it on a warm summer's day.

Here's my sales pitch: If you get the newer longboard, in a year, you'll still be experiencing pretty much the same sensations, using the same skills. Unless you are full on racing, you probably aren't going to be stretching yourself or doing something vastly different than what you are doing now. Sure, the board will be just that bit better but, on an average 10-15 day, your sailing won't be remarkably impacted.

If you get the foil, that 10-15 day will be different. You will experience sensations and do things that you've never done before (at least on liquid water ) . Because foils are more sensitive to trim, you'll find that you'll also become a better windsurfer. You will notice more nuances of hand, foot and body position that you've never noticed before. You'll look at a barely whitecapping day with anticipation. You'll experience that thrill and adrenaline that you felt when first learning that you haven't felt in years.

Remember that first time you planed? You weren't quite sure what happened but suddenly everything seemed to happen at warp speed? Your first flight, all 2 seconds of it will be the same way - you will want whatever it was to happen again. You will crash and fall, but, you'll scramble back on the board and try it again because you ... well, you just have to have another taste.

As much as you love windsurfing on both hard and soft water, I think you'd regret never giving foiling a go. As a wise man once said, "In life, we regret less our failures and more the chances we never took."

CAN17
213 posts
1 Jan 2019 2:29AM
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WhiteofHeart said..


CAN17 said..






WhiteofHeart said..







CAN17 said..
I am 65 kg and fly in 7/8 knots with my formula board and blue pryde aluminium foil and 7.5 sail. I get overpowered at about 13 knots on this setup. Have not tried smaller sails as other light weights have above. I have only foiled for one season so far...much more to learn

Sorry for the farther derailment of this thread. But has anyone foiled with there mast base past center in light winds or is it to sticky getting up. I usually run with it way back sometimes even covering the serial #. But my sb 08 is known to be used with the mast base sailed pritty far back.









I have used the pryde foil quite a lot, nice foil, fast, but not optimal for lightwind. The front wing is small (about half my wing literally), and the power is pretty far back. The further your power is forward the earlier you fly. In light wind I'd put the base as far back as possible with this foil. I used it with a JP135 and the base was at around 123cm for light wind, with the straps all the way back and a washer under the stab for more lift. On my custom board the most forward position of the masttrack corresponds to 123cm from the tail, I mostly use it at around 98-100cm from the tail with a way more front foot powered foil and straps further back (front insert aligned with front screw of the box) than a lot of serial (foil) boards go! This gives an incredible amount of light wind power/performance, but does get quite a handful overpowered when you are not used to it. I designed the dimensions and insert positions together with balz, making it a really extreme, but perfect setup for light wind.








Yah, i find it lacking lift in anything below 8 kts. Im light so can get by in light winds with the back washer in. But would amgine the amount of lift significantly lower for a bigger rider. Just a guess but a 100kg rider could probably get going in 12knots with same setup? Didn't realise it has the front wing too far back but makes sence. The wing is 72cm so not that big either, hence why I have run with the base all the way back in light winds. Are manufatures not able to make g10 ( low cost wings) in 80cm+ in span without being overly thick.

What foil are you using in light winds? Fuse length, wing size??
I appreciate you detailed replys and love for the sport!







I think the pryde alu is great value for money (compared to the rest of the market at least), so in that respect I think they did great. On top of that it is one of the stiffest (if not the stiffest) alu foils on the market, meaning also good to use for heavier riders, I do however think you are right, a 100+kg rider would need 11-12 knots to get going with it, so its not ideal for light wind. I wouldn't say thefront wing is too far back, it is jibable when coupled with the JP135 and when set up right, but having it a little further forward just improves lift. The problem with g10 is that stiffness and thickness are 1:1 related with this material, meaning a larger wing has to also be a lot thicker to be stiff. On top of that, I think they want to be able to guarantee stiffness for everyone, and when supplying a bigger wing, the torsional forces on the front of the fuselage get bigger, add to that a 100+kg rider, and they might feel a little less confident of its performance at pryde group.

I have 2 foils I use a lot. For racing and light wind / small sail freeriding I use the Lokefoil LK1, one of the stiffest and fastest full carbon monoque construction foils available on the market. For the small sails I use a 1200cm2 wing, with a bigger sail in minimal wind or during courseraces I have a 1000cm2 wing, similar to the starboard millenium wing. For more wind and more powered up/down racing I have an 850cm2 wing, and speed a 600cm2 (with which I clocked 58.68 kph, which I think is quite fast). The fuselage isn't that long, around 85-90cm I believe, but the front wings location relative to the foilmast is similar to that of the starboard race, resulting in a lot of front foot power and lift. The position of the stabiliser relative to the mast is of less importance, especially for freeriding. Having the stab further back increases stability a little, but mostly 'locks' the foil in place more, meaning it is easier to bank the board over to windward and lock it in place. For freeriding and the occasional race like I do this is unnecessary, and I actually believe that even for racers it isn't necessary, since (I believe it was him, but correct me if I'm wrong) Thomas Goyard won a foil PWA using the Loke, and it wins a lot of national events.

however, since a couple of months I have been helping the kitebrand F-One in their windfoil R&D, their foil is at the moment my foil of choice for freestyle from about 10 knots, their biggest windfoil wing is 900cm2, meaning I need a little more sail (5.7 in 10kts compared to 4.8 with the loke1200), but it is very stable and easy to sail, is fast enough, and above all, the brand philosophy is to try to present an indestructable product which can be used by any level in any conditions, and has to be able to put up with the extreme forces of freestyle windfoiling. Until I discovered F-One I broke a number of foils and wings in one way or another, thus making F-One my foil of choice. Lately I have been testing different prototype fuselages and masts, which made me aware of the effect especially the mast placement on the fuselage has. For the next series (2020) we are putting the front wing further forward (mast further back on the fuselage), also for freeriding purposes (not only for racers) as it opens up jibing a lot more and enhances light wind potential. I am waiting (and hoping because it is not my in my hands) for F-One to make me a bigger wing, for I cannot jump the Loke without risking damage (I am quite heavy with 86kgs, and its design objective was making a racing foil), but do like the feeling of being able to use even smaller sails. I will try the supwing for windfoiling soon, but am having my doubts, with the needed fuselage distance to the mast, which is 0cm as with most supfoils, and the wingshape as explained below.

In my experience the one light wind wing isn't as good as the other to get most out of the light wind performance. I have tried thick, low aspect wings like the naish for light wind, but did not like it. The LK1200 is a freeride wing, but still very high aspect compared to most, making it more efficient. It is thinner than most, has a 92cm wingspan, and 16cm chord. (My racing LK1000 wing is 96cmx11cm I believe, with an even thinner profile and a smaller angle of attack, making it even more efficient, but also less powerful, therfore the use with bigger sails) I feel this is better for light wind in the end, because a more efficient wing will attain higher speeds, increasing relative wind, meaning you'll just be more powered up in minimal conditions compared to a low aspect wing. On top of that, due to its higher speed and lower drag it glides better in the lulls.

The reason I have a low aspect wing in my quiver (F-One 850) is because it delivers a softer feel, I use this wing overpowered a lot in freestyle conditions, and it greatly improves handling, ease in gusts and ease of mind (because it is less fast) compared to a similarly powerful high aspect wing. I think in the higher ranges is where the lower aspect wings belong, because no efficiency is needed there and ease of use becomes a bigger part of the equation. Ofcourse the low aspect wings have the advantage of having more float, meaning they need less speed and pumping to get out of the water, but for me personally the tradeoff with endspeed, acceleration and amount of drag isn't worth it, I'd rather work a little harder to get going with a more efficient shape (which isnt a problem for me), than be stuck falling out of the sky in the lulls and feeling chronically underpowered.



"The LK1200 is a freeride wing, but still very high aspect compared to most, making it more efficient. It is thinner than most, has a 92cm wingspan, and 16cm chord. (My racing LK1000 wing is 96cmx11cm"

Didn't even know they make wings that big! Reminds me of high aspect moth sailboat wings.
A few months ago I made a low aspect front wing. It is not finished but was hoping to try it with my current foil since I shaped it to fit the fuse. My question is would this wing put too much stress on the fuseledge and risk bending it or is 65kg light enough with a bigger wing?






CAN17
213 posts
1 Jan 2019 2:39AM
Thumbs Up

Select to expand quote
Paducah said..

joe windsurf said..
what you may or may not know, I windsurf in the North American winter - on ice and snow
just 2 days ago I was in 10 kph winds on ideal ice conditions and having a riot
this is what is bringing me towards foiling ...
REALLY light winds with an old 2007 SailWorks Retro 8 meter sail and flying
NO harness required and it was quiet
that is my analogy with light wind foiling
since i have not tried it


that pic was not taken on the ideal ice day, but you get the idea ...
i guess soon I will be drooling over foiling
am currently deciding on purchasing a newer longboard or AFS 85 foil ...



Point well taken. Now imagine all the fun of sailing on ice and snow and doing it on a warm summer's day.

Here's my sales pitch: If you get the newer longboard, in a year, you'll still be experiencing pretty much the same sensations, using the same skills. Unless you are full on racing, you probably aren't going to be stretching yourself or doing something vastly different than what you are doing now. Sure, the board will be just that bit better but, on an average 10-15 day, your sailing won't be remarkably impacted.

If you get the foil, that 10-15 day will be different. You will experience sensations and do things that you've never done before (at least on liquid water ) . Because foils are more sensitive to trim, you'll find that you'll also become a better windsurfer. You will notice more nuances of hand, foot and body position that you've never noticed before. You'll look at a barely whitecapping day with anticipation. You'll experience that thrill and adrenaline that you felt when first learning that you haven't felt in years.

Remember that first time you planed? You weren't quite sure what happened but suddenly everything seemed to happen at warp speed? Your first flight, all 2 seconds of it will be the same way - you will want whatever it was to happen again. You will crash and fall, but, you'll scramble back on the board and try it again because you ... well, you just have to have another taste.

As much as you love windsurfing on both hard and soft water, I think you'd regret never giving foiling a go. As a wise man once said, "In life, we regret less our failures and more the chances we never took."


Agreed, you have done it all when it comes to windsurfing water or snow. You will be challenged while learning and It could damage your board( just like windsurfing can) but you can protect it like I did and I know you have more experience with nose protectors from reading you blogs etc so im sure you could figure something out.


Paducah
335 posts
1 Jan 2019 5:03AM
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Select to expand quote
CAN17 said..

WhiteofHeart said


"The LK1200 is a freeride wing, but still very high aspect compared to most, making it more efficient. It is thinner than most, has a 92cm wingspan, and 16cm chord. (My racing LK1000 wing is 96cmx11cm"

Didn't even know they make wings that big! Reminds me of high aspect moth sailboat wings.



The Gofoil Maliko 280 would like a word with you: gofoil.com/wings/

Rowan2304
NSW, 1 posts
1 Jan 2019 5:40PM
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HotBodMon said..
CJM pretty sure it's a levitator 2019 really wide ( like 90cm ?) stumpy looking board . He got overpowered on the smallest mast it comes with I think the 60cm one ? Kinda hope he's reading this and chimes in. To be fair ,where we sail is in a harbour with wind shadows and multi directional bullets at times , quite crap sailing spot really but I came along for the ride and to share the shark attack paranoia.
My board is a atomiq 104 and i have a 6.7 that I need about a 13-15 knot gust with adequate pumping to release so it FELT like 15 knots anyways.
But yeah it was his 4th time foiling and was making gybes , he has impressive light wind skills on a regular freeride.
There must have been at least half a dozen violent catapults right beside me , so some nice new smashie smashie up the front .
Not quite balz muller stuff ( that guys a freq ) just learning / experimental phase.
Maybe rowan's the next balz in the making , he does seem to float like an angel when it's 25knots and chopped to bits , but the green envy eyes start staring when he's having a ball with not a white cap in sight


Yeah Levitator 2019 150 L, 6'6" x 33" = 198 x 84 cm, foil is Hoverglide Fwind Infinity 76, was on 600 mast, now 900. Total sessions maybe 8, started with everything well aft as recommended, found it easy to fly, but uncomfortable. Tweaked things each session and now I'm easily flying with 4.5 in 12 kn, can pump through lower, and as Ben said, need a smaller sail for 15 kn.

I found with the levitator, the question of how far from foil to mast is the wrong one to ask. This board is made for 5-7 m sails, I'm using 4.5 mostly and need the mast base as far aft as possible, and front strap as far FWD as possible to be able to get into a comfortable upwind position, once that's set, just position the foil accordingly on the tracks until the CL is under the CG. As others have noted I found back straps a hindrance and took them off. I found with the foil assembled in the "A" position, I couldn't get it far enough forward, kept dropping the nose when working up wind because your weight is so far FWD, changed to "B", positioned about 1-2 cm FWD of the aft most track position and it's perfect. I'd guess I'm flying at around 6 kn board speed. Can't rate the slingshot foil highly enough for light wind, so easy once set up right.

The thing I've noticed with sail size is that it almost doesn't matter, its pumping ability that counts, once foiling I need almost no pressure to fly. In the gusts I just let the sail luff, often sail with back hand off so that it can twist off easily which has stopped nasty caterpaults. Combine good sail pumping with board pumping Kai Lenny style and I don't think you even need wind once you'r up. The main thing that stops me getting up is waves, if you'r pumping against them, you can easily pop onto the foil, pumping with them, you just get bogged. I've had times in 15 kn I can't get foiling until I find the right break in the waves.

For me I got into this because I missed the relaxing sailing of a longboard with daggerboard (learnt on a mistral one design), and I already have a full wave quiver so add a foil board and you've got the entire wind range covered with about 3 sails and 2 boards.

WhiteofHeart
104 posts
1 Jan 2019 6:37PM
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Select to expand quote
CAN17 said..

WhiteofHeart said..



CAN17 said..







WhiteofHeart said..








CAN17 said..
I am 65 kg and fly in 7/8 knots with my formula board and blue pryde aluminium foil and 7.5 sail. I get overpowered at about 13 knots on this setup. Have not tried smaller sails as other light weights have above. I have only foiled for one season so far...much more to learn

Sorry for the farther derailment of this thread. But has anyone foiled with there mast base past center in light winds or is it to sticky getting up. I usually run with it way back sometimes even covering the serial #. But my sb 08 is known to be used with the mast base sailed pritty far back.










I have used the pryde foil quite a lot, nice foil, fast, but not optimal for lightwind. The front wing is small (about half my wing literally), and the power is pretty far back. The further your power is forward the earlier you fly. In light wind I'd put the base as far back as possible with this foil. I used it with a JP135 and the base was at around 123cm for light wind, with the straps all the way back and a washer under the stab for more lift. On my custom board the most forward position of the masttrack corresponds to 123cm from the tail, I mostly use it at around 98-100cm from the tail with a way more front foot powered foil and straps further back (front insert aligned with front screw of the box) than a lot of serial (foil) boards go! This gives an incredible amount of light wind power/performance, but does get quite a handful overpowered when you are not used to it. I designed the dimensions and insert positions together with balz, making it a really extreme, but perfect setup for light wind.









Yah, i find it lacking lift in anything below 8 kts. Im light so can get by in light winds with the back washer in. But would amgine the amount of lift significantly lower for a bigger rider. Just a guess but a 100kg rider could probably get going in 12knots with same setup? Didn't realise it has the front wing too far back but makes sence. The wing is 72cm so not that big either, hence why I have run with the base all the way back in light winds. Are manufatures not able to make g10 ( low cost wings) in 80cm+ in span without being overly thick.

What foil are you using in light winds? Fuse length, wing size??
I appreciate you detailed replys and love for the sport!








I think the pryde alu is great value for money (compared to the rest of the market at least), so in that respect I think they did great. On top of that it is one of the stiffest (if not the stiffest) alu foils on the market, meaning also good to use for heavier riders, I do however think you are right, a 100+kg rider would need 11-12 knots to get going with it, so its not ideal for light wind. I wouldn't say thefront wing is too far back, it is jibable when coupled with the JP135 and when set up right, but having it a little further forward just improves lift. The problem with g10 is that stiffness and thickness are 1:1 related with this material, meaning a larger wing has to also be a lot thicker to be stiff. On top of that, I think they want to be able to guarantee stiffness for everyone, and when supplying a bigger wing, the torsional forces on the front of the fuselage get bigger, add to that a 100+kg rider, and they might feel a little less confident of its performance at pryde group.

I have 2 foils I use a lot. For racing and light wind / small sail freeriding I use the Lokefoil LK1, one of the stiffest and fastest full carbon monoque construction foils available on the market. For the small sails I use a 1200cm2 wing, with a bigger sail in minimal wind or during courseraces I have a 1000cm2 wing, similar to the starboard millenium wing. For more wind and more powered up/down racing I have an 850cm2 wing, and speed a 600cm2 (with which I clocked 58.68 kph, which I think is quite fast). The fuselage isn't that long, around 85-90cm I believe, but the front wings location relative to the foilmast is similar to that of the starboard race, resulting in a lot of front foot power and lift. The position of the stabiliser relative to the mast is of less importance, especially for freeriding. Having the stab further back increases stability a little, but mostly 'locks' the foil in place more, meaning it is easier to bank the board over to windward and lock it in place. For freeriding and the occasional race like I do this is unnecessary, and I actually believe that even for racers it isn't necessary, since (I believe it was him, but correct me if I'm wrong) Thomas Goyard won a foil PWA using the Loke, and it wins a lot of national events.

however, since a couple of months I have been helping the kitebrand F-One in their windfoil R&D, their foil is at the moment my foil of choice for freestyle from about 10 knots, their biggest windfoil wing is 900cm2, meaning I need a little more sail (5.7 in 10kts compared to 4.8 with the loke1200), but it is very stable and easy to sail, is fast enough, and above all, the brand philosophy is to try to present an indestructable product which can be used by any level in any conditions, and has to be able to put up with the extreme forces of freestyle windfoiling. Until I discovered F-One I broke a number of foils and wings in one way or another, thus making F-One my foil of choice. Lately I have been testing different prototype fuselages and masts, which made me aware of the effect especially the mast placement on the fuselage has. For the next series (2020) we are putting the front wing further forward (mast further back on the fuselage), also for freeriding purposes (not only for racers) as it opens up jibing a lot more and enhances light wind potential. I am waiting (and hoping because it is not my in my hands) for F-One to make me a bigger wing, for I cannot jump the Loke without risking damage (I am quite heavy with 86kgs, and its design objective was making a racing foil), but do like the feeling of being able to use even smaller sails. I will try the supwing for windfoiling soon, but am having my doubts, with the needed fuselage distance to the mast, which is 0cm as with most supfoils, and the wingshape as explained below.

In my experience the one light wind wing isn't as good as the other to get most out of the light wind performance. I have tried thick, low aspect wings like the naish for light wind, but did not like it. The LK1200 is a freeride wing, but still very high aspect compared to most, making it more efficient. It is thinner than most, has a 92cm wingspan, and 16cm chord. (My racing LK1000 wing is 96cmx11cm I believe, with an even thinner profile and a smaller angle of attack, making it even more efficient, but also less powerful, therfore the use with bigger sails) I feel this is better for light wind in the end, because a more efficient wing will attain higher speeds, increasing relative wind, meaning you'll just be more powered up in minimal conditions compared to a low aspect wing. On top of that, due to its higher speed and lower drag it glides better in the lulls.

The reason I have a low aspect wing in my quiver (F-One 850) is because it delivers a softer feel, I use this wing overpowered a lot in freestyle conditions, and it greatly improves handling, ease in gusts and ease of mind (because it is less fast) compared to a similarly powerful high aspect wing. I think in the higher ranges is where the lower aspect wings belong, because no efficiency is needed there and ease of use becomes a bigger part of the equation. Ofcourse the low aspect wings have the advantage of having more float, meaning they need less speed and pumping to get out of the water, but for me personally the tradeoff with endspeed, acceleration and amount of drag isn't worth it, I'd rather work a little harder to get going with a more efficient shape (which isnt a problem for me), than be stuck falling out of the sky in the lulls and feeling chronically underpowered.




"The LK1200 is a freeride wing, but still very high aspect compared to most, making it more efficient. It is thinner than most, has a 92cm wingspan, and 16cm chord. (My racing LK1000 wing is 96cmx11cm"

Didn't even know they make wings that big! Reminds me of high aspect moth sailboat wings.
A few months ago I made a low aspect front wing. It is not finished but was hoping to try it with my current foil since I shaped it to fit the fuse. My question is would this wing put too much stress on the fuseledge and risk bending it or is 65kg light enough with a bigger wing?







Here a pic of my wing compared to the pryde:


I think with your weight you should be OK to try, I have seen similar projects in france turn out very succesfully! I have to say, that thing is huge ;)

CAN17
213 posts
2 Jan 2019 5:53AM
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Select to expand quote
WhiteofHeart said..


CAN17 said..



WhiteofHeart said..





CAN17 said..









WhiteofHeart said..










CAN17 said..
I am 65 kg and fly in 7/8 knots with my formula board and blue pryde aluminium foil and 7.5 sail. I get overpowered at about 13 knots on this setup. Have not tried smaller sails as other light weights have above. I have only foiled for one season so far...much more to learn

Sorry for the farther derailment of this thread. But has anyone foiled with there mast base past center in light winds or is it to sticky getting up. I usually run with it way back sometimes even covering the serial #. But my sb 08 is known to be used with the mast base sailed pritty far back.












I have used the pryde foil quite a lot, nice foil, fast, but not optimal for lightwind. The front wing is small (about half my wing literally), and the power is pretty far back. The further your power is forward the earlier you fly. In light wind I'd put the base as far back as possible with this foil. I used it with a JP135 and the base was at around 123cm for light wind, with the straps all the way back and a washer under the stab for more lift. On my custom board the most forward position of the masttrack corresponds to 123cm from the tail, I mostly use it at around 98-100cm from the tail with a way more front foot powered foil and straps further back (front insert aligned with front screw of the box) than a lot of serial (foil) boards go! This gives an incredible amount of light wind power/performance, but does get quite a handful overpowered when you are not used to it. I designed the dimensions and insert positions together with balz, making it a really extreme, but perfect setup for light wind.











Yah, i find it lacking lift in anything below 8 kts. Im light so can get by in light winds with the back washer in. But would amgine the amount of lift significantly lower for a bigger rider. Just a guess but a 100kg rider could probably get going in 12knots with same setup? Didn't realise it has the front wing too far back but makes sence. The wing is 72cm so not that big either, hence why I have run with the base all the way back in light winds. Are manufatures not able to make g10 ( low cost wings) in 80cm+ in span without being overly thick.

What foil are you using in light winds? Fuse length, wing size??
I appreciate you detailed replys and love for the sport!










I think the pryde alu is great value for money (compared to the rest of the market at least), so in that respect I think they did great. On top of that it is one of the stiffest (if not the stiffest) alu foils on the market, meaning also good to use for heavier riders, I do however think you are right, a 100+kg rider would need 11-12 knots to get going with it, so its not ideal for light wind. I wouldn't say thefront wing is too far back, it is jibable when coupled with the JP135 and when set up right, but having it a little further forward just improves lift. The problem with g10 is that stiffness and thickness are 1:1 related with this material, meaning a larger wing has to also be a lot thicker to be stiff. On top of that, I think they want to be able to guarantee stiffness for everyone, and when supplying a bigger wing, the torsional forces on the front of the fuselage get bigger, add to that a 100+kg rider, and they might feel a little less confident of its performance at pryde group.

I have 2 foils I use a lot. For racing and light wind / small sail freeriding I use the Lokefoil LK1, one of the stiffest and fastest full carbon monoque construction foils available on the market. For the small sails I use a 1200cm2 wing, with a bigger sail in minimal wind or during courseraces I have a 1000cm2 wing, similar to the starboard millenium wing. For more wind and more powered up/down racing I have an 850cm2 wing, and speed a 600cm2 (with which I clocked 58.68 kph, which I think is quite fast). The fuselage isn't that long, around 85-90cm I believe, but the front wings location relative to the foilmast is similar to that of the starboard race, resulting in a lot of front foot power and lift. The position of the stabiliser relative to the mast is of less importance, especially for freeriding. Having the stab further back increases stability a little, but mostly 'locks' the foil in place more, meaning it is easier to bank the board over to windward and lock it in place. For freeriding and the occasional race like I do this is unnecessary, and I actually believe that even for racers it isn't necessary, since (I believe it was him, but correct me if I'm wrong) Thomas Goyard won a foil PWA using the Loke, and it wins a lot of national events.

however, since a couple of months I have been helping the kitebrand F-One in their windfoil R&D, their foil is at the moment my foil of choice for freestyle from about 10 knots, their biggest windfoil wing is 900cm2, meaning I need a little more sail (5.7 in 10kts compared to 4.8 with the loke1200), but it is very stable and easy to sail, is fast enough, and above all, the brand philosophy is to try to present an indestructable product which can be used by any level in any conditions, and has to be able to put up with the extreme forces of freestyle windfoiling. Until I discovered F-One I broke a number of foils and wings in one way or another, thus making F-One my foil of choice. Lately I have been testing different prototype fuselages and masts, which made me aware of the effect especially the mast placement on the fuselage has. For the next series (2020) we are putting the front wing further forward (mast further back on the fuselage), also for freeriding purposes (not only for racers) as it opens up jibing a lot more and enhances light wind potential. I am waiting (and hoping because it is not my in my hands) for F-One to make me a bigger wing, for I cannot jump the Loke without risking damage (I am quite heavy with 86kgs, and its design objective was making a racing foil), but do like the feeling of being able to use even smaller sails. I will try the supwing for windfoiling soon, but am having my doubts, with the needed fuselage distance to the mast, which is 0cm as with most supfoils, and the wingshape as explained below.

In my experience the one light wind wing isn't as good as the other to get most out of the light wind performance. I have tried thick, low aspect wings like the naish for light wind, but did not like it. The LK1200 is a freeride wing, but still very high aspect compared to most, making it more efficient. It is thinner than most, has a 92cm wingspan, and 16cm chord. (My racing LK1000 wing is 96cmx11cm I believe, with an even thinner profile and a smaller angle of attack, making it even more efficient, but also less powerful, therfore the use with bigger sails) I feel this is better for light wind in the end, because a more efficient wing will attain higher speeds, increasing relative wind, meaning you'll just be more powered up in minimal conditions compared to a low aspect wing. On top of that, due to its higher speed and lower drag it glides better in the lulls.

The reason I have a low aspect wing in my quiver (F-One 850) is because it delivers a softer feel, I use this wing overpowered a lot in freestyle conditions, and it greatly improves handling, ease in gusts and ease of mind (because it is less fast) compared to a similarly powerful high aspect wing. I think in the higher ranges is where the lower aspect wings belong, because no efficiency is needed there and ease of use becomes a bigger part of the equation. Ofcourse the low aspect wings have the advantage of having more float, meaning they need less speed and pumping to get out of the water, but for me personally the tradeoff with endspeed, acceleration and amount of drag isn't worth it, I'd rather work a little harder to get going with a more efficient shape (which isnt a problem for me), than be stuck falling out of the sky in the lulls and feeling chronically underpowered.






"The LK1200 is a freeride wing, but still very high aspect compared to most, making it more efficient. It is thinner than most, has a 92cm wingspan, and 16cm chord. (My racing LK1000 wing is 96cmx11cm"

Didn't even know they make wings that big! Reminds me of high aspect moth sailboat wings.
A few months ago I made a low aspect front wing. It is not finished but was hoping to try it with my current foil since I shaped it to fit the fuse. My question is would this wing put too much stress on the fuseledge and risk bending it or is 65kg light enough with a bigger wing?







Here a pic of my wing compared to the pryde:


I think with your weight you should be OK to try, I have seen similar projects in france turn out very succesfully! I have to say, that thing is huge ;)



Yah, its really boxy might be kinda slow.

I was pritty impressed with the amount of different wings loke has. I'm tempted to make a second wing. I Based the shape off the LK850 wing.
more then anything I've always enjoyed wood working and making cool projects like these has given me a better appreciation for hydrofoils and I am fascinated by the science behind it all. Even though I'm not a engeneer or physicist, but I don't think you have to be to carve up a piece of wood.

Cluffy
NSW, 344 posts
2 Jan 2019 3:46PM
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I've been thinking about this old 1999 sailworks MX2 8.2 metre I've had sitting in the shed for decades. I know it to be a fairly flat sail with a bit of a forward knuckle in the draft and a closed but soft leach. I thought the rounded leading edge might make it easier to keep the flow attached on deep downwind angles with tight apparent wind. The thing about it I was most interested in however was the properties of the leach. Most people would call the leach of this sail tight. It's not, it's quite closed by modern standards but it's not tight. It actually bends off very easily. This has the effect of turning every tiny little bit of breeze into usable feel and power. I rigged it on the same 460 rdm gorilla I use for the NCX 8.0 and the 8.2 is actually a tiny bit lighter than the NCX 8.0 . That 460 RDM severne gorilla might be the handiest mast I have ever bought lol.

To be clear, my intentions for this old sail were extreme light winds as I believed it had a lot of properties that could work well. I got out for a very light wind session yesterday with the MX2 8.2 and same board and foil. The wind was definately lighter than in the video. I would guestimate it at 6 to 7 knots. It took some pumping to get going but once up the thing went like a rocket. The leach had just the right properties to close up for grunt when I needed and accelerate when I was powered up. The foil actually started whistling quite loudly at times which I know from the video starts to happen at about 17 knots of speed. Considering the wind was 6 to 7 knots I thought that was amazing. Of course I won't be winning luderitz on this sail any time soon and as soon as the wind hits 8 or 9 knots I'll be on the new gear quick smart. For the very light stuff however the old beast is very effective.

So as well as the extra light wind performance I was hoping for the old MX2 had the added bonus of generating heaps of velocity in very light conditions. This was by far the lightest wind I have foiled in. I think there is something going on with these older rigs that sailmakers need to take a look at.




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"Light wind session" started by Cluffy