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Quest for a fast controllable small HA wing to downwind swells

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Created by azymuth > 9 months ago, 10 Jan 2023
azymuth
WA, 1949 posts
30 Jan 2023 10:41AM
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Hess said..Hey Azymuth, trusting you are noticing a difference in roll characteristics with the changes you are making. Just wondering what effect different masts may have on roll. Only because it does have a lot of surface area in the same plane. Just trying to help



Interesting you ask - Jesper has been testing the small 590cm2 Simmer wing and says it's 10% more controllable with the aluminum mast than the stiffer carbon mast.

Sandman1221
2776 posts
30 Jan 2023 10:49AM
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azymuth said..





Hess said..Hey Azymuth, trusting you are noticing a difference in roll characteristics with the changes you are making. Just wondering what effect different masts may have on roll. Only because it does have a lot of surface area in the same plane. Just trying to help





Interesting you ask - Jesper has been testing the small 590cm2 Simmer wing and says it's 10% more controllable with the aluminum mast than the stiffer carbon mast.




Then I would venture to say the carbon mast is not stiffer, but then that is second hand information.

azymuth
WA, 1949 posts
30 Jan 2023 10:50AM
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My latest tests - vertical stabilizer on the rear wing and winglets on the front wing.

Vertical stabilizer works - provides too much directional stability when I tested it with the mid aspect 920cm2 wing.
With the small HA wing it helps but there was still some instability, mostly roll but some yaw - so I added the winglets.

The vertical and winglets provide too much directional stability, the wing tracks from one side to the other. Crazy feeling

I took the vertical stabilizer off but the tracking was still intense.
So I'll cut down the winglets.

Will all the instability then be fixed...not sure yet but I feel it's positive so far





Sandman1221
2776 posts
30 Jan 2023 10:58AM
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Azymuth, have you tried an AFS foil from 2019 or newer? My AFS W95 from 2019 with S670 cm2 wing is great down-winding (thanks for making me try it), handles perfectly. Not saying my W95 doesn't have issues (see my post on side shimming stab. and wings), but those seem like minor issues (but a PIA all the same) compared to what you are describing.

Sandman1221
2776 posts
30 Jan 2023 8:37PM
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Sandman1221 said..
Azymuth, have you tried an AFS foil from 2019 or newer? My AFS W95 from 2019 with S670 cm2 wing is great down-winding (thanks for making me try it), handles perfectly. Not saying my W95 doesn't have issues (see my post on side shimming stab. and wings), but those seem like minor issues (but a PIA all the same) compared to what you are describing.


And the newer AFS Performance foil with wings of 370 cm2, 570 cm2, 700 cm2, and 900 cm2 should cover what you are looking for, and that Performance foil should have solved the saddle alignment issues I have had with the Wind95 foil, because it has wider saddles for the stab. and wings.

segler
WA, 1592 posts
31 Jan 2023 1:13AM
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I have foiled with Greg a few times. What makes Greg faster is--well--Greg. You could put him on a 5 year old thick foil with an aluminum bendy mast and he would still be faster.

Same for Bruce Peterson. You could use his latest and best sail and he could still beat you with a bedsheet.

thedoor
2168 posts
31 Jan 2023 3:32AM
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segler said..
I have foiled with Greg a few times. What makes Greg faster is--well--Greg. You could put him on a 5 year old thick foil with an aluminum bendy mast and he would still be faster.

Same for Bruce Peterson. You could use his latest and best sail and he could still beat you with a bedsheet.


I got exactly the same impression! His straight line speed was less shocking than the the speed and tightness of his gybes. Especially in those big Baja conditions.

CoreAS
868 posts
31 Jan 2023 5:43AM
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G700 is currently in the hands of the pro-wingers and I have one on order, just no ETA yet! just not as high aspect as you would like though?



John340
QLD, 3028 posts
31 Jan 2023 2:06PM
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azymuth said..
My latest tests - vertical stabilizer on the rear wing and winglets on the front wing.

Vertical stabilizer works - provides too much directional stability when I tested it with the mid aspect 920cm2 wing.
With the small HA wing it helps but there was still some instability, mostly roll but some yaw - so I added the winglets.

The vertical and winglets provide too much directional stability, the wing tracks from one side to the other. Crazy feeling

I took the vertical stabilizer off but the tracking was still intense.
So I'll cut down the winglets.

Will all the instability then be fixed...not sure yet but I feel it's positive so far






It looks a little like the original NP Pinky





azymuth
WA, 1949 posts
31 Jan 2023 9:10PM
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CoreAS said..
G700 is currently in the hands of the pro-wingers and I have one on order, just no ETA yet! just not as high aspect as you would like though?




Cheers Dean - the G700 looks the goods, mid-aspect wings like it are probably the way to go in big seas for all-round performance.
But I'll still try an see if I can get a small HA to work for the occasional session of fast frictionless gliding downwind.

HA wing options that I can adapt to my present kit are Phantasm, Simmer and Axis.

obenebo
NSW, 41 posts
1 Feb 2023 1:12AM
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I'm trying to understand what the problem here is. Foils can now do close to 40kn, so controlling that is up to the rider.

Downwinding on swells, where it is difficult to control consistent mastfoot pressure, I'm constantly turning "frontside to heelside", riding the wave, if I do go straight, yeah, lift, yaw, and roll instability come into play - so I avoid that by keeping turning - simple. The smaller the wings, the faster and tighter the turns.

Remember that stabiliser "lift" on a foil also equates to "rocker", when carving the foil with canted mast. A foil setup that seems to lift excessively on the flat, might actually carve turns beautifully. Carve harder Azy?

Btw, I'm still on 2017 MFC foils, ~550cm2 / ~670cm2 / ~970cm2 - have you tried them?

Paducah
2435 posts
31 Jan 2023 11:40PM
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John340 said..
azymuth said..
My latest tests - vertical stabilizer on the rear wing and winglets on the front wing....


It looks a little like the original NP Pinky







We all had so much hope for the Pinky.

thedoor
2168 posts
1 Feb 2023 12:20AM
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obenebo said..

Remember that stabiliser "lift" on a foil also equates to "rocker", when carving the foil with canted mast. A foil setup that seems to lift excessively on the flat, might actually carve turns beautifully. Carve harder Azy?



Never quite thought about it like that. I really like an old stabilizer that has pretty high lift, for two reasons, 1) gets up early in light air and 2) more stable in the turns. I thought the stability came from the wing tips but maybe its got something with this high lift/rocker concept.

www.sailworks.com/sabfoil-s450-stabilizer-wing.html

I have tried lots of other stabs for windfoil, my second favourite is the the sabfoil 425. For prone and pump I am good with smaller stabilizers

segler
WA, 1592 posts
1 Feb 2023 12:36AM
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For SABfoil I use a S450 as my default stab for the W950, W940, W790, and even W720 front wings, all on the 900 fuse. You see S450 stabs all over the place on the Columbia. This coming summer I will be experimenting with the S425 and S399 stabs.

Sandman1221
2776 posts
1 Feb 2023 1:17AM
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obenebo said..
I'm trying to understand what the problem here is. Foils can now do close to 40kn, so controlling that is up to the rider.

Downwinding on swells, where it is difficult to control consistent mastfoot pressure, I'm constantly turning "frontside to heelside", riding the wave, if I do go straight, yeah, lift, yaw, and roll instability come into play - so I avoid that by keeping turning - simple. The smaller the wings, the faster and tighter the turns.

Remember that stabiliser "lift" on a foil also equates to "rocker", when carving the foil with canted mast. A foil setup that seems to lift excessively on the flat, might actually carve turns beautifully. Carve harder Azy?

Btw, I'm still on 2017 MFC foils, ~550cm2 / ~670cm2 / ~970cm2 - have you tried them?







With my AFS W95 and S670 cm2 wing I can go almost straight downwind and really moving, first time I did a long downwind run decided to stop and take a break cause I was going so fast and needed to recalibrate my senses!, I have missed that kind of speed since switching from windsurfing to windfoiling. And never noticed an issue with "lift, yaw, and roll instability" when going downwind. The only issue is coming down a larger swell need to make sure I keep the board nose up, so do not drop too steeply, otherwise the nose on my longer Bolt 135 can catch the water in front of the swell and then it is all over.

And that was before I got the wing and stab. aligned properly with the mast. Can only go faster with everything aligned and without the front stab. shim.

V1 stab., I believe, on left, S670 cm2 wing on right, proportions just look right to me.

CoreAS
868 posts
1 Feb 2023 4:11AM
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John340 said..

azymuth said..
My latest tests - vertical stabilizer on the rear wing and winglets on the front wing.

Vertical stabilizer works - provides too much directional stability when I tested it with the mid aspect 920cm2 wing.
With the small HA wing it helps but there was still some instability, mostly roll but some yaw - so I added the winglets.

The vertical and winglets provide too much directional stability, the wing tracks from one side to the other. Crazy feeling

I took the vertical stabilizer off but the tracking was still intense.
So I'll cut down the winglets.

Will all the instability then be fixed...not sure yet but I feel it's positive so far







It looks a little like the original NP Pinky






I don't miss the high pitch whistle from the pinky that's for sure and it was still easier than the Horue (That was a death ride)



azymuth
WA, 1949 posts
1 Feb 2023 8:14AM
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obenebo said..
I'm trying to understand what the problem here is. Foils can now do close to 40kn, so controlling that is up to the rider.

Downwinding on swells, where it is difficult to control consistent mastfoot pressure, I'm constantly turning "frontside to heelside", riding the wave, if I do go straight, yeah, lift, yaw, and roll instability come into play - so I avoid that by keeping turning - simple. The smaller the wings, the faster and tighter the turns.

Remember that stabiliser "lift" on a foil also equates to "rocker", when carving the foil with canted mast. A foil setup that seems to lift excessively on the flat, might actually carve turns beautifully. Carve harder Azy?

Btw, I'm still on 2017 MFC foils, ~550cm2 / ~670cm2 / ~970cm2 - have you tried them?



Cheers - sounds like you're ripping downwind. Can you post a pix of your 2017 MFC foil 550cm2?
Thanks for the tip to carve harder - I'd like to, hence the quest to ride a small HA wing.

If anyone has mastered small HA wings - less than 600cm2, aspect ratio greater than 9, foiling at over 20 knots in proper ocean swells, please post a video

Sandman1221
2776 posts
1 Feb 2023 10:15AM
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Azymuth, why don't you contact AFS, their 570 cm2 wing is 9.2 AR, surely they have, or know someone who has, done what you want to do.

Bruno has always been very helpful and knowledgable.
bruno.andre@foilandco.com

obenebo
NSW, 41 posts
1 Feb 2023 2:13PM
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azymuth said..



Can you post a pix of your 2017 MFC foil 550cm2?




Spans are 78cm and 55cm, chord on the smaller one is 10cm, so probably more like 450-500cm2?



Hess
240 posts
6 Feb 2023 4:22AM
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azymuth said..

obenebo said..
I'm trying to understand what the problem here is. Foils can now do close to 40kn, so controlling that is up to the rider.

Downwinding on swells, where it is difficult to control consistent mastfoot pressure, I'm constantly turning "frontside to heelside", riding the wave, if I do go straight, yeah, lift, yaw, and roll instability come into play - so I avoid that by keeping turning - simple. The smaller the wings, the faster and tighter the turns.

Remember that stabiliser "lift" on a foil also equates to "rocker", when carving the foil with canted mast. A foil setup that seems to lift excessively on the flat, might actually carve turns beautifully. Carve harder Azy?

Btw, I'm still on 2017 MFC foils, ~550cm2 / ~670cm2 / ~970cm2 - have you tried them?




Cheers - sounds like you're ripping downwind. Can you post a pix of your 2017 MFC foil 550cm2?
Thanks for the tip to carve harder - I'd like to, hence the quest to ride a small HA wing.

If anyone has mastered small HA wings - less than 600cm2, aspect ratio greater than 9, foiling at over 20 knots in proper ocean swells, please post a video


Hey JJ. This might not be any help but the fast guys I know are liking F4 and sail in the gorge well over 20 kts
Not sure if the salmon foils are better or not on a a swell than the race foil.

www.f4foils.com/product-category/windsurf/wings/

Can't believe how small the wings are but I know they are getting close to 40 mph.

Sandman1221
2776 posts
6 Feb 2023 6:04AM
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Hess said..

azymuth said..


obenebo said..
I'm trying to understand what the problem here is. Foils can now do close to 40kn, so controlling that is up to the rider.

Downwinding on swells, where it is difficult to control consistent mastfoot pressure, I'm constantly turning "frontside to heelside", riding the wave, if I do go straight, yeah, lift, yaw, and roll instability come into play - so I avoid that by keeping turning - simple. The smaller the wings, the faster and tighter the turns.

Remember that stabiliser "lift" on a foil also equates to "rocker", when carving the foil with canted mast. A foil setup that seems to lift excessively on the flat, might actually carve turns beautifully. Carve harder Azy?

Btw, I'm still on 2017 MFC foils, ~550cm2 / ~670cm2 / ~970cm2 - have you tried them?





Cheers - sounds like you're ripping downwind. Can you post a pix of your 2017 MFC foil 550cm2?
Thanks for the tip to carve harder - I'd like to, hence the quest to ride a small HA wing.

If anyone has mastered small HA wings - less than 600cm2, aspect ratio greater than 9, foiling at over 20 knots in proper ocean swells, please post a video



Hey JJ. This might not be any help but the fast guys I know are liking F4 and sail in the gorge well over 20 kts
Not sure if the salmon foils are better or not on a a swell than the race foil.

www.f4foils.com/product-category/windsurf/wings/

Can't believe how small the wings are but I know they are getting close to 40 mph.


I like the stab. and wing connection to the fuselage on the F4 foils, the flat surface should make it easier to get everything aligned.

azymuth
WA, 1949 posts
6 Feb 2023 8:48AM
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Hess said..Hey JJ. This might not be any help but the fast guys I know are liking F4 and sail in the gorge well over 20 kts
Not sure if the salmon foils are better or not on a a swell than the race foil.
www.f4foils.com/product-category/windsurf/wings/
Can't believe how small the wings are but I know they are getting close to 40 mph.


Thanks for the link.

Doesn't look like F4 are much interested in freeride

The race/slalom wings look great although I imagine smaller than about 500cm2 needs a big race sail to get them up.
I wonder whether the smaller HA wings with a 80cm freeride fuse and wave sail will be unstable in yaw/roll ??
Any windfoil racers out there tried riding swells?

thedoor
2168 posts
6 Feb 2023 10:40AM
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Did you ever try the orginal balz 720? It was a small freeride wing and will fit on your phatasm fuse. Its out of print now.

www.sailworks.com/moses-sabfoil-w720-wing.html

Sounds like you need a front wing that is designed for prone surfing big waves. Something that has to go quick but turns well.

I doubt manufacturers are desingning small fast freeride windfoil wings lol. I think some are out of the windfoil market altogether :(

Sandman1221
2776 posts
6 Feb 2023 10:53AM
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I am not sure a small <600 cm2 HA wing in the 9.2 aspect range is what you would want for downwinding ocean swell in the +6' range. I used the AFS S670 cm2 wing on the W95 freeride foil (88 cm fuse.) to downwind 2-3' wind swell and it was a blast and seriously fast, BUT my absolute board height did not need to change that much in those runs, maybe a foot at most, so the wind pressure on my sail was pretty consistent. But that same kit in 6' or more of proper ocean swell would be popping in and out of wind pressure zones as each swell peak was crested and each swell trough crossed, and that could cause issues with staying on foil especially with a small sail.

azymuth
WA, 1949 posts
6 Feb 2023 4:41PM
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Sandman1221 said..
I am not sure a small <600 cm2 HA wing in the 9.2 aspect range is what you would want for downwinding ocean swell in the +6' range. I used the AFS S670 cm2 wing on the W95 freeride foil (88 cm fuse.) to downwind 2-3' wind swell and it was a blast and seriously fast, BUT my absolute board height did not need to change that much in those runs, maybe a foot at most, so the wind pressure on my sail was pretty consistent. But that same kit in 6' or more of proper ocean swell would be popping in and out of wind pressure zones as each swell peak was crested and each swell trough crossed, and that could cause issues with staying on foil especially with a small sail.


Good to know, thanks

Sandman1221
2776 posts
7 Feb 2023 2:34AM
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azymuth said..





Sandman1221 said..
I am not sure a small







Good to know, thanks






Explains why no one has responded with a "yes, I have one and here is my video down-winding swell on it!"

And seriously, thanks again for posting about it all the same, got me to try it with my S670 cm2 mid-aspect wing and it gave me the speed thrill I have missed since switching to foiling

Rewind
NSW, 79 posts
7 Feb 2023 10:58PM
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Gong have really nailed the marketing for their range of wings. This is exactly what I'd like to see for all foil makes. Some of the manufacturers ranges are so confusing.

From this page, once you know how the change in aspect affect the ride (demo), and what you're after, you could pretty much zone in on which foil you want from the range.

Azymuth, which series would you be honing in on for high speed wave carving based on testing so far. It'll give me a better idea of where you're heading.

www.gong-galaxy.com/en/category-product/foil-en/nos-gammes-foils-en/front-wing-parts-en/

azymuth
WA, 1949 posts
8 Feb 2023 7:58AM
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Rewind said..
Gong have really nailed the marketing for their range of wings. This is exactly what I'd like to see for all foil makes. Some of the manufacturers ranges are so confusing.

From this page, once you know how the change in aspect affect the ride (demo), and what you're after, you could pretty much zone in on which foil you want from the range.

Azymuth, which series would you be honing in on for high speed wave carving based on testing so far. It'll give me a better idea of where you're heading.

www.gong-galaxy.com/en/category-product/foil-en/nos-gammes-foils-en/front-wing-parts-en/


Thanks for the link - lots of interesting wings, seems their new stuff is a big improvement.
I like the YPRA S although adapting it to my Phantasm foil mast would be tricky.


azymuth
WA, 1949 posts
8 Feb 2023 8:15AM
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thedoor said..
Did you ever try the orginal balz 720? It was a small freeride wing and will fit on your phatasm fuse. Its out of print now.

www.sailworks.com/moses-sabfoil-w720-wing.html

Sounds like you need a front wing that is designed for prone surfing big waves. Something that has to go quick but turns well.

I doubt manufacturers are desingning small fast freeride windfoil wings lol. I think some are out of the windfoil market altogether :(


Cheers - no I didn't get to try the SABW720 although I suspect it would be a little thicker than what I want. Seems Balz likes lift to pop.

I agree, manufacturers have given up on freeride windfoiling but luckily plenty of winging options now they're going faster and using smaller foils - be nice if they start using 80cm fuses

Grantmac
1939 posts
8 Feb 2023 11:18AM
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The Ypra-s is likely a lot more skatey and less roll stability compared to what you're using. More glide though.

Making a fuselage to mount Gong wings is not hard with a mill (done it). The Phantasm mast mount also looks fairly simple unless I'm missing a subtle taper. I'm likely to make a fuselage to marry the two in the future for winging. Probably with a KD tail.



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"Quest for a fast controllable small HA wing to downwind swells" started by azymuth