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SB 115 (black one) vs 115+ (grey) fuselage - need advice

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Created by Manilo 2 months ago, 22 May 2022
Manilo
WA, 20 posts
22 May 2022 8:59AM
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Hi, I could get a used Starboard Race Foil with 1000 and 800 front wings, but it's one of the first ones, so the fuselage is not the plus, in which the front wing is far forward.

It even has no shims to the tail 255 wing, it's always the same angle.

I'm riding comfortable, but can't get the same upwind (and a bit downwind) angles than some friends. All with the same sail (Severne hg2 9.0) and SB foil 100 board.

I know one of them is always faster and has better angles than me. But I would like to know if anyone has tried both, and give me some thoughts about it.

Speed related, I'm getting around 22 knts downwind, with 12-16 of wind.

Fortunately it's the least expensive part to buy (usd 299 in the US)

Thank you!

Subsonic
WA, 2602 posts
22 May 2022 4:13PM
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I've not tried the original 115 starboard fuse, but did used to use the f4 120cm fuse, (which is very similar in front wing position to it) and had similar upwind angle issues against my friends on their iq sets. Now having the iq set, the upwind angles i can get are much the same as theirs. (F4 have since created a 115+fuse as well, the iq foil was just easier for me to get)
speedwise, its looking like 22/23knots is a bit of a barrier speed for a lot of people on the course racing foils. sure it's possible to push them faster, but in course racing vmg is probably more relevant.
keep in mind that the iq gear you have to go through the olympic system now. You could get the evolution fuse, but they've changed the front wing mount, so you'd be up for a new front wing/s as well.

Manilo
WA, 20 posts
22 May 2022 7:41PM
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Subsonic said..
I've not tried the original 115 starboard fuse, but did used to use the f4 120cm fuse, (which is very similar in front wing position to it) and had similar upwind angle issues against my friends on their iq sets. Now having the iq set, the upwind angles i can get are much the same as theirs. (F4 have since created a 115+fuse as well, the iq foil was just easier for me to get)
speedwise, its looking like 22/23knots is a bit of a barrier speed for a lot of people on the course racing foils. sure it's possible to push them faster, but in course racing vmg is probably more relevant.
keep in mind that the iq gear you have to go through the olympic system now. You could get the evolution fuse, but they've changed the front wing mount, so you'd be up for a new front wing/s as well.


Thanks for the feedback. Well I'm not going for IQ , mainly cause I'm 47 so olympic campaign Is out of question. And because lQ sailors have much better pumping abilities than me, young and training continuosly.

I'll ask for a 115+ fuse to a friend for a session next time!

Regards

Grantmac
1481 posts
23 May 2022 2:24AM
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Its worth keeping the original 115 around for doing speed runs and running smaller sails using the original 550 and 800 wings which are dirt cheap now.
Not great for VMG however.

RuddeBos
122 posts
23 May 2022 7:53PM
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I've recently repaired an old black 115 fuselage with helicoils to bring it back from the dead.
I've used with 1000/900/800 wings and a 255 tw shimmed to -2 deg equivalent with the washer under the middle bolt.
comparing it to my 95+ which I normally use, it's a lot more stable, but it hasn't really got the upwind angles I was hoping for.
the front wing is only 1cm approx further forward, so it feels very similar to the 95+ but a bit boringly stable. Rises like a jumbo jet.
As folk have said, it's probably most suitable for the slalom wing set up 725/255 wings

California
7 posts
23 May 2022 9:24PM
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Contact philsurfdude here on the forum, he sailed and tested pretty much everething from starboardfoils,. He knows these things.

lwalker
68 posts
23 May 2022 9:48PM
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Does the the 115+ fuselage require you to use the newer rear wing with the shims?

phoilingphil
30 posts
25 May 2022 9:15AM
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I use both fuses and use the black one for higher winds with the 800 wing primarily, especially if I think I may be doing more reaching than upwind down wind sailing. The 115+ I use more with the 900 wing. I also got the new -2 degree stab. You don't have to. The original stab will fit the 115+ fuse. the -2 degree stab works well on the black fuse
Starboard has a couple good videos explaining the combinations, one with Sebastian Koerdel and the other with Mateo Iachino I believe.

California
7 posts
26 May 2022 1:13AM
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Manilo
WA, 20 posts
11 Jul 2022 5:19AM
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phoilingphil said..
I use both fuses and use the black one for higher winds with the 800 wing primarily, especially if I think I may be doing more reaching than upwind down wind sailing. The 115+ I use more with the 900 wing. I also got the new -2 degree stab. You don't have to. The original stab will fit the 115+ fuse. the -2 degree stab works well on the black fuse
Starboard has a couple good videos explaining the combinations, one with Sebastian Koerdel and the other with Mateo Iachino I believe.


Hi Phil, do you know the first stab that came with the black fuse how many degrees it has? Someone told me -3? Is this right?

I finally got then 115+ new fuse but I'm a bit confused of which Shim to put with the old stab and not the -2 new one.

Regards
Thanks!

phoilingphil
30 posts
11 Jul 2022 12:50PM
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It is -4 degrees. With the grey fuse I started with the -2 shim.

fjdoug
ACT, 524 posts
11 Jul 2022 9:55PM
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phoilingphil said..
It is -4 degrees. With the grey fuse I started with the -2 shim.


are you sure because -4 + -2 = -6

Subsonic
WA, 2602 posts
11 Jul 2022 9:06PM
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Its 3.75 degrees of rake on the original, so you want to be using the minus shims (unless you like lots of lift). Most people i know are getting around with 2.25 to 2.75 degrees (using + shims with the -2 stabilizer), so you want to use either the -1 (which gives 2.75) or the -1.5 (which gives 2.25)


i don't know what made starboard decide they needed to have the original 3.75 as 0. I guess they just like to be different/confusing Hopefully i haven't stuffed the maths either.

Manilo
WA, 20 posts
11 Jul 2022 9:17PM
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Thanks a lot! Definately they made it complicated at Starboard! Now I can see why yesterday with the 800 wing and 7.8 (foil race 100 board) and 20-22 knts of wind I could not get the foil steady, I was pushing so so hard over the harness and front foot.. with the 0? shim

WindFlyer
99 posts
12 Jul 2022 3:38PM
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phoilingphil said..
I use both fuses and use the black one for higher winds with the 800 wing primarily, especially if I think I may be doing more reaching than upwind down wind sailing. The 115+ I use more with the 900 wing. I also got the new -2 degree stab. You don't have to. The original stab will fit the 115+ fuse. the -2 degree stab works well on the black fuse
Starboard has a couple good videos explaining the combinations, one with Sebastian Koerdel and the other with Mateo Iachino I believe.


Right on. The 115+/Evo has the front wing mounted 3cms. further forward than the black 115. The black 115 has the same front wing mount position as the 105+/Evo.

Agree that for crosswind foiling, the minus two-degree stab (255 or 200) works great with the black 115.

WindFlyer
99 posts
12 Jul 2022 3:42PM
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Subsonic said..
i don't know what made starboard decide they needed to have the original 3.75 as 0. I guess they just like to be different/confusing Hopefully i haven't stuffed the maths either.



I'm guessing since that angle is an unchangeable baseline one, they called it zero to make the adjustments referential to that baseline (for simplicity).

CJW
NSW, 1709 posts
12 Jul 2022 6:00PM
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Subsonic said..
Its 3.75 degrees of rake on the original, so you want to be using the minus shims (unless you like lots of lift). Most people i know are getting around with 2.25 to 2.75 degrees (using + shims with the -2 stabilizer), so you want to use either the -1 (which gives 2.75) or the -1.5 (which gives 2.25)


i don't know what made starboard decide they needed to have the original 3.75 as 0. I guess they just like to be different/confusing Hopefully i haven't stuffed the maths either.


Personally I think the confusion arrises when we start trying to use 'actual' numbers, they are irrelevant, what are the referenced to?, you can't compare them to other brands so it's pointless. Just calling the rear stabs Original (0deg) and New (-2deg) makes complete sense no? Then the only question to answer is, which stab are you running and what shim, super simple, no weird maths that can be interpreted differently if you're using the 'real' value or the arbitrary one....that's actually on the stab. Just my opinion though.

@Manilo, My other comment would be, if you want to be fast upwind you're going to be uncomfortable downwind as to be fast upwind you need to run a fair bit of lift, particularly when it's light. Personally I used to run up to -1.25 (SBRef) (also custom shims) but most often -1.5 unless it was super windy, so -2 stab, +0.5 shim (or old stab with a -1.5 shim). At the time most of the others (Grae, Will etc) were too but things may have changed in the last 6 months, I didn't race much last season and their level has obviously gone up since then.

Downwind speed is a tricky one and quite hard to explain, you need to have a really good feel for apparent wind sailing and moding the rig. Basically sometimes you have to sail higher for a bit in order to sail lower and faster, it's very easy on the IQ rig to get stuck/comfortable in that 19-22kt downwind mode. Once it's over 12 kts you should be comfortably be averaging 23+ downwind and 25+ in the gusts, more when it's high teens, low 20's.

Also, get the 900 wing, it's the pick in everything (windward/leward racing) unless it's super light and you're super heavy. Even then that's debatable.

There have been lots of posts in the past that cover all this stuff as it's all been known for a while now, you also need to pay careful attention to foil mast rake, mast base position etc.

Subsonic
WA, 2602 posts
12 Jul 2022 11:31PM
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CJW said..

Subsonic said..
Its 3.75 degrees of rake on the original, so you want to be using the minus shims (unless you like lots of lift). Most people i know are getting around with 2.25 to 2.75 degrees (using + shims with the -2 stabilizer), so you want to use either the -1 (which gives 2.75) or the -1.5 (which gives 2.25)


i don't know what made starboard decide they needed to have the original 3.75 as 0. I guess they just like to be different/confusing Hopefully i haven't stuffed the maths either.



Personally I think the confusion arrises when we start trying to use 'actual' numbers, they are irrelevant, what are the referenced to?, you can't compare them to other brands so it's pointless. Just calling the rear stabs Original (0deg) and New (-2deg) makes complete sense no? Then the only question to answer is, which stab are you running and what shim, super simple, no weird maths that can be interpreted differently if you're using the 'real' value or the arbitrary one....that's actually on the stab. Just my opinion though.



I found knowing the original "0" angle to be a rather critical piece of info, because then I knew what the rest of the numbers represented, it actually removed the confusion. I got the -2 stab. But as someone fresh to starboard foils, I had no idea what that -2 was based off. Was it -2 off of 0? (Common sense would say 0=0 degrees of angle to the Uninitiated) foil sense told me it was off of a higher angle, but how much higher? Was I going to struggle to get lift off with a 0 shim? Manilo (see above) looks to have had the opposite experience and gone for a wild ride with the original stabiliser.


of course if you've got others who own the foil around you, you can simply ask them what they run and go off that since they've already played crash test dummies. Then you probably don't need to know the numbers because you can get your starting point and simply work off of that. I have to say, I went looking for some basic start point guidance on the net, there was very little in the way of info on what shim to use with what stabiliser, I ended up finding out off of friends where to start with shims.

But I guess it's different horses on different courses

Manilo
WA, 20 posts
13 Jul 2022 3:42AM
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Couldn't agree more with you Subsonic! and since windsurfing in general and specially foiling is very technical, there's a need to know everything around it!! Our issue here in Uruguay, is that we are really a very small (but good ;) fleet of foilers (maybe 10 in all the country with race foils, not freeride). So getting info is difficult. We have Argentina on the other side of our "river" (wide as a sea), including Gonzalo Costa Hoevel who we know very well, but he's working a lot and obviously hasn't got time for this things.

I think they let engineers get too much involved in the settings area, instead of leaving it to a UX designer who would probably make something easier to understand.

Now I'll just wait for the weekend to try the -1.5? shim and hope to have better flights, as I had with the black fuse. Even though it looks like a 25 knots forecast and waves, so better switch to the 95 lts goya ;)



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"SB 115 (black one) vs 115+ (grey) fuselage - need advice" started by Manilo