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2024 Olympics

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Created by cammd > 9 months ago, 13 May 2019
John340
QLD, 3045 posts
4 Nov 2019 2:02PM
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RichardG said..

John340 said..
Will the inclusion of the iFoil in the Olympics attract foilers from the PWA?





Probably not since iFoil is one design. I don't think Fanatic, NP, JP, Tabou, Gaastra, Duotone etc would want their sponsored riders supporting Starboard/Severne. The 95 cm width is different to the PWA widths of 91 cm for slalom foil and 100cm for race foil and the sails in PWA will evolve whereas the foil sails for foil will remain as Hyper Glide Olympic versions limited to one sail ie: 8 m2 for ladies and 9 m2 for men. The Hyper Glide Olympic sail is an evolution of the Hyper Glide 2 sail, but the Severne R&D team is working intensely on further evolutions of the Hyper Glide 2 to accommodate next level PWA and course racing. Also the foil for iFoil will remain one design as I understand it whereas foils in PWA will evolve constantly. Optimal weights and fitness for iFoil may also not accord with the weights and fitness of PWA sailors due to differing equipment and sails.


Would it then be possible that the best foilers will not be competing in the Olympics?

RichardG
WA, 3743 posts
4 Nov 2019 12:10PM
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John340 said..Would it then be possible that the best foilers will not be competing in the Olympics?






RichardG said..








John340 said..
Will the inclusion of the iFoil in the Olympics attract foilers from the PWA?












Probably not since iFoil is one design. I don't think Fanatic, NP, JP, Tabou, Gaastra, Duotone etc would want their sponsored riders supporting Starboard/Severne. The 95 cm width is different to the PWA widths of 91 cm for slalom foil and 100cm for race foil and the sails in PWA will evolve whereas the foil sails for foil will remain as Hyper Glide Olympic versions limited to one sail ie: 8 m2 for ladies and 9 m2 for men. The Hyper Glide Olympic sail is an evolution of the Hyper Glide 2 sail, but the Severne R&D team is working intensely on further evolutions of the Hyper Glide 2 to accommodate next level PWA and course racing. Also the foil for iFoil will remain one design as I understand it whereas foils in PWA will evolve constantly. Optimal weights and fitness for iFoil may also not accord with the weights and fitness of PWA sailors due to differing equipment and sails.









Would it then be possible that the best foilers will not be competing in the Olympics?


I don't think so. The best sailors for 2024 iFoil are probably either current RSX sailors, current Techno sailors or up and coming dinghy sailors who may transition or even people learning to sail now. If they are not then I would be concerned. Remember PWA sailors may not be the best course racers on one design equipment. That said an Olympic campaign will require more funds and it will be harder now for all sailors to qualify since the costs have increased significantly. Many may have heard people whinging about the cost of Techno and RSX and the cost of being a member of a sailing club, the latter of which I believe is a requirement of World Sailing/Australian Sailing to compete in regattas. It will be even worse with iFoil, not to mention the need to have back up spare equipment and the like. Many sailors are able to test foils of one design, fins and sails and find the faster sails and gear in the continuum of one design.

AUS 814
NSW, 452 posts
4 Nov 2019 3:17PM
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John340 said..

RichardG said..


John340 said..
Will the inclusion of the iFoil in the Olympics attract foilers from the PWA?






Probably not since iFoil is one design. I don't think Fanatic, NP, JP, Tabou, Gaastra, Duotone etc would want their sponsored riders supporting Starboard/Severne. The 95 cm width is different to the PWA widths of 91 cm for slalom foil and 100cm for race foil and the sails in PWA will evolve whereas the foil sails for foil will remain as Hyper Glide Olympic versions limited to one sail ie: 8 m2 for ladies and 9 m2 for men. The Hyper Glide Olympic sail is an evolution of the Hyper Glide 2 sail, but the Severne R&D team is working intensely on further evolutions of the Hyper Glide 2 to accommodate next level PWA and course racing. Also the foil for iFoil will remain one design as I understand it whereas foils in PWA will evolve constantly. Optimal weights and fitness for iFoil may also not accord with the weights and fitness of PWA sailors due to differing equipment and sails.



Would it then be possible that the best foilers will not be competing in the Olympics?


It depends I guess on each countries qualification requirements for the four year cycle. I guess if the PWA sailors can compete in the required events then they may be selected.Plenty of top foilers at present dont compete in the PWA and I guess if they become fulltime athletes then the standard will become higher from the non PWA guys.

Plenty of top sailors are not involved in olympic campaign's, Slingsby, Langford, Ainlsie etc

AUS 814
NSW, 452 posts
4 Nov 2019 3:27PM
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RichardG said..

John340 said..Would it then be possible that the best foilers will not be competing in the Olympics?







RichardG said..









John340 said..
Will the inclusion of the iFoil in the Olympics attract foilers from the PWA?













Probably not since iFoil is one design. I don't think Fanatic, NP, JP, Tabou, Gaastra, Duotone etc would want their sponsored riders supporting Starboard/Severne. The 95 cm width is different to the PWA widths of 91 cm for slalom foil and 100cm for race foil and the sails in PWA will evolve whereas the foil sails for foil will remain as Hyper Glide Olympic versions limited to one sail ie: 8 m2 for ladies and 9 m2 for men. The Hyper Glide Olympic sail is an evolution of the Hyper Glide 2 sail, but the Severne R&D team is working intensely on further evolutions of the Hyper Glide 2 to accommodate next level PWA and course racing. Also the foil for iFoil will remain one design as I understand it whereas foils in PWA will evolve constantly. Optimal weights and fitness for iFoil may also not accord with the weights and fitness of PWA sailors due to differing equipment and sails.










Would it then be possible that the best foilers will not be competing in the Olympics?



I don't think so. The best sailors for 2024 iFoil are probably either current RSX sailors, current Techno sailors or up and coming dinghy sailors who may transition or even people learning to sail now. If they are not then I would be concerned. Remember PWA sailors may not be the best course racers on one design equipment. That said an Olympic campaign will require more funds and it will be harder now for all sailors to qualify since the costs have increased significantly. Many may have heard people whinging about the cost of Techno and RSX and the cost of being a member of a sailing club, the latter of which I believe is a requirement of World Sailing/Australian Sailing to compete in regattas. It will be even worse with iFoil, not to mention the need to have back up spare equipment and the like. Many sailors are able to test foils of one design, fins and sails and find the faster sails and gear in the continuum of one design.


The cost of of the I Foil is about the same as a new Laser in Aus.Any equipment for an Olympic camapign is going to have some cost associated with it . The I Foil and laser would be the 2 cheapest olympic classes to purchase by a long margin. If the I Foil is going to be a strict one design then it should make it les expensive as upgrades wont be required

AUS 814
NSW, 452 posts
4 Nov 2019 3:30PM
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The I Foil kit is only marginally more expensive than the RSX so not sure how the costs have increased significantly?

RichardG
WA, 3743 posts
4 Nov 2019 12:32PM
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AUS 814 said..The cost of of the I Foil is about the same as a new Laser in Aus.Any equipment for an Olympic camapign is going to have some cost associated with it . The I Foil and laser would be the 2 cheapest olympic classes to purchase by a long margin. If the I Foil is going to be a strict one design then it should make it les expensive as upgrades wont be required


RichardG said..




John340 said..Would it then be possible that the best foilers will not be competing in the Olympics?










RichardG said..












John340 said..
Will the inclusion of the iFoil in the Olympics attract foilers from the PWA?
















Probably not since iFoil is one design. I don't think Fanatic, NP, JP, Tabou, Gaastra, Duotone etc would want their sponsored riders supporting Starboard/Severne. The 95 cm width is different to the PWA widths of 91 cm for slalom foil and 100cm for race foil and the sails in PWA will evolve whereas the foil sails for foil will remain as Hyper Glide Olympic versions limited to one sail ie: 8 m2 for ladies and 9 m2 for men. The Hyper Glide Olympic sail is an evolution of the Hyper Glide 2 sail, but the Severne R&D team is working intensely on further evolutions of the Hyper Glide 2 to accommodate next level PWA and course racing. Also the foil for iFoil will remain one design as I understand it whereas foils in PWA will evolve constantly. Optimal weights and fitness for iFoil may also not accord with the weights and fitness of PWA sailors due to differing equipment and sails.













Would it then be possible that the best foilers will not be competing in the Olympics?






I don't think so. The best sailors for 2024 iFoil are probably either current RSX sailors, current Techno sailors or up and coming dinghy sailors who may transition or even people learning to sail now. If they are not then I would be concerned. Remember PWA sailors may not be the best course racers on one design equipment. That said an Olympic campaign will require more funds and it will be harder now for all sailors to qualify since the costs have increased significantly. Many may have heard people whinging about the cost of Techno and RSX and the cost of being a member of a sailing club, the latter of which I believe is a requirement of World Sailing/Australian Sailing to compete in regattas. It will be even worse with iFoil, not to mention the need to have back up spare equipment and the like. Many sailors are able to test foils of one design, fins and sails and find the faster sails and gear in the continuum of one design.





The cost of of the I Foil is about the same as a new Laser in Aus.Any equipment for an Olympic camapign is going to have some cost associated with it . The I Foil and laser would be the 2 cheapest olympic classes to purchase by a long margin. If the I Foil is going to be a strict one design then it should make it les expensive as upgrades wont be required




I am not sure your point is accurate. Remember you can purchase a secondhand Laser for a relatively small amount on Gumtree and compete in club racing which is where a campaign starts. You can't do that with an iFoil right now which has a steeper entry price and I don't know how many people will buy new iFoils and sail them in clubs around Australia. I don't even know if the iFoil Olympic gear is available now in Australia at any event. What will be its retail price inc GST in AUD ?

AUS 814
NSW, 452 posts
4 Nov 2019 3:46PM
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A few people I know have expressed interested in getting one and sailing it socially and at club level. No the I foil gear woudnt be available any where yet.Yes you can pick up an older laser of gumtree butyou would be forced very quickly to upgrade to compete atthe top level. The laser is pretty much the only olympic class that is sailed at club level in Australia. Thats just the way it is

RichardG
WA, 3743 posts
4 Nov 2019 12:51PM
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AUS 814 said..
A few people I know have expressed interested in getting one and sailing it socially and at club level. No the I foil gear woudnt be available any where yet.Yes you can pick up an older laser of gumtree butyou would be forced very quickly to upgrade to compete atthe top level. The laser is pretty much the only olympic class that is sailed at club level in Australia. Thats just the way it is





That is great and I hope the class prospers and we have sustainable fleets all around Australia in sailing clubs. The Windglider, Lechner, IMCO and RSX experience has shown the opposite unfortunately. I think the height of Olympic sailing in Australia was with the IMCO when there was in the early pre-Olympic years ie 91-96 club racing all around Australia in that Olympic class which builds the fleet and pool of sailors. Can the iFoil re-establish that for Olympic windsurfing ? I would hope so.

AUS 814
NSW, 452 posts
4 Nov 2019 3:59PM
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Will be interesting to see what is happening this time next year ?.

Ant-man
NSW, 177 posts
4 Nov 2019 6:26PM
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Chris 249 said..

Belly25 said..
Chris 249 - The simple fact is that sports in which gold medallists use gear of the same type as the "every day local races" are vastly more popular than the ones that don't. Why can't windsurfing learn from that?

I hardly think weekend competition cyclists, rowers, kayakers, equestrian riders, etc. are using anything that closely resembles an Olympic competitor.

Chris 249 - I take it you haven't even read the IOC OPC criteria?

Too busy enjoying life but I hope it was a riveting read.






1- Road cyclists are definitely using stuff that "closely resemble an Olympic competitor". It is the same sort of stuff, racing under the same rules. Standard weekend racing in Masters road cycling, for example, is run under the same equipment rules as the Olympic road racing; In fact due to the UCI rules, your local shop can sell you a racing road bike that is lighter than an Olympic bike. The cycling journos keep a close eye on what pros use, and many of the Aussie Tour de France pros race "every day local races" to keep fit during their off season, so a B-Grade racer like me can just walk up and look at a Team Sky pro's gear on the startline during a weekend event. It's nice gear, but it is pretty much the same as a lot of old weekend warriors use.

By the way, the road bikes used in the Olympics and Tour de France are about 50kmh slower than the fastest bicycles - and yet cycling is the world's most popular equipment-intensive sport. There's a lesson there!

In rowing, according to websites, my own very minor rowing experience and the only national squad rower I know, the Olympians use gear that is very similar to the stuff the weekenders use. Faster gear, like sliding riggers, was banned to ensure that the old stuff remained competitive. Olympic rowing gets more viewers than Olympic skiff and catamaran racing, by the way - there's a lesson there, too.

Kayaking/canoeing is interesting - the Olympic gear hasn't got dramatically faster since the 1930s but it is very different from the stuff you see on your local lake. And y'know what? Kayaking/canoeing isn't very good at getting people into competition at any level. Huge numbers of people paddle for fun, but very few of them compete. So the kayaking/canoeing model, where the elite use very different gear from the average person, doesn't work very well in terms of getting people into competition.

So, yes, the cyclists and rowers DO use the same sort of stuff at Olympic level as at the local weekend club- and the more the rules ensure that the gear is convenient, the more popular the sport.


2- If you haven't read the Olympic Commission's requirements for sports, then you don't know what the customer (the IOC) wants. That's like telling someone what car they should buy before you've even asked whether they are a tradie looking for a 4WD work ute or a F1 racer looking to win at Monaco. The IOC is the body that runs the Olympics - how in the world can we ignore what THEY want in THEIR event?

One of the things that the IOC wants to see is a strong international spread of competitors, world champs and medallists. One of sailing's problems is that it's dominated by Europe, Australia and NZ. Historically, windsurfing looked good because medals went to places like Argentina, Netherlands Antilles, China and Hong Kong. Many of the smaller countries subsidise their Olympic windsurfing fleets and if they decide they can't afford to scrap their RSXs and buy windfoilers, they may stop windsurfing - and that means that World Sailing has less reason to keep giving windsurfing an Olympic spot.

We just can't ignore all these sorts of issues when it comes to this very complex question.


I have no idea where you are sourcing your information (I assume Google) but for the sake of civility I'm just going to say that if you can afford a new Tour de France team bike or Olympic kayak you are pretty well off if you are just a weekend warrior.
Where is the incentive for manufacturers to produce better products if out dated products are just as good? Historically manufacturers have intentionally held off on releasing a product just so they can show case it at the Olympics (or other such event) on a high profile athlete.
If you think you can just walk into your local bike shop and buy something that closely resembles a Tour de France team bike you are kidding yourself.
You are also kidding yourself if you think the geometry of the bike you continue to refer to can average 50kmh faster than a Tour or Olympic class bike ON IDENTICAL TERRAINS. You are cherry picking Google searches to back your arguments.
Yes there are many restrictions on equipment in many Olympic events, particularly in events where the economic disparity between nations limits "fair" competition but the generalisations you use weaken your arguments in my opinion.



Chris 249
NSW, 3215 posts
4 Nov 2019 8:51PM
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John340 said..

RichardG said..


John340 said..
Will the inclusion of the iFoil in the Olympics attract foilers from the PWA?






Probably not since iFoil is one design. I don't think Fanatic, NP, JP, Tabou, Gaastra, Duotone etc would want their sponsored riders supporting Starboard/Severne. The 95 cm width is different to the PWA widths of 91 cm for slalom foil and 100cm for race foil and the sails in PWA will evolve whereas the foil sails for foil will remain as Hyper Glide Olympic versions limited to one sail ie: 8 m2 for ladies and 9 m2 for men. The Hyper Glide Olympic sail is an evolution of the Hyper Glide 2 sail, but the Severne R&D team is working intensely on further evolutions of the Hyper Glide 2 to accommodate next level PWA and course racing. Also the foil for iFoil will remain one design as I understand it whereas foils in PWA will evolve constantly. Optimal weights and fitness for iFoil may also not accord with the weights and fitness of PWA sailors due to differing equipment and sails.



Would it then be possible that the best foilers will not be competing in the Olympics?


Why do you assume the PWA guys will be the top foiler sailors by 2024? According to PWA World Champ Matteo Iachino just seven or eight guys really make a living from the PWA (see www.windsurf.co.uk/featured/pwa-slalom-slalom-cents/8/) whereas some of the Olympic teams have enormous funding - the British and Australians alone have over 20 million bucks a year just for Olympic sailing. Even a "minor" sailing nation like Ireland can offer a top Olympic sailor a direct grant of $80,000 P.A. in addition to their other funding. And many of the Olympic sailors tend to have full time coaches and to spend less of their money shipping multiple boards around to venues.

There are 489 sailors on the current RSX ranking list and just 74 sailors on the PWA foil racing ranking list, so unless we have some reason to think that the Olympians are **** - and we do not - then on numbers alone it is very likely that there are more top Olympic sailors than top PWA sailors.

So.... since there are far more Olympic class racers than PWA racers, and there's probably at least as much cash running around for the Olympic racers, then why would the PWA guys be better?

Chris 249
NSW, 3215 posts
4 Nov 2019 9:22PM
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Belly25 said..



Chris 249 said..




Belly25 said..
Chris 249 - The simple fact is that sports in which gold medallists use gear of the same type as the "every day local races" are vastly more popular than the ones that don't. Why can't windsurfing learn from that?

I hardly think weekend competition cyclists, rowers, kayakers, equestrian riders, etc. are using anything that closely resembles an Olympic competitor.

Chris 249 - I take it you haven't even read the IOC OPC criteria?

Too busy enjoying life but I hope it was a riveting read.









1- Road cyclists are definitely using stuff that "closely resemble an Olympic competitor". It is the same sort of stuff, racing under the same rules. Standard weekend racing in Masters road cycling, for example, is run under the same equipment rules as the Olympic road racing; In fact due to the UCI rules, your local shop can sell you a racing road bike that is lighter than an Olympic bike. The cycling journos keep a close eye on what pros use, and many of the Aussie Tour de France pros race "every day local races" to keep fit during their off season, so a B-Grade racer like me can just walk up and look at a Team Sky pro's gear on the startline during a weekend event. It's nice gear, but it is pretty much the same as a lot of old weekend warriors use.

By the way, the road bikes used in the Olympics and Tour de France are about 50kmh slower than the fastest bicycles - and yet cycling is the world's most popular equipment-intensive sport. There's a lesson there!

In rowing, according to websites, my own very minor rowing experience and the only national squad rower I know, the Olympians use gear that is very similar to the stuff the weekenders use. Faster gear, like sliding riggers, was banned to ensure that the old stuff remained competitive. Olympic rowing gets more viewers than Olympic skiff and catamaran racing, by the way - there's a lesson there, too.

Kayaking/canoeing is interesting - the Olympic gear hasn't got dramatically faster since the 1930s but it is very different from the stuff you see on your local lake. And y'know what? Kayaking/canoeing isn't very good at getting people into competition at any level. Huge numbers of people paddle for fun, but very few of them compete. So the kayaking/canoeing model, where the elite use very different gear from the average person, doesn't work very well in terms of getting people into competition.

So, yes, the cyclists and rowers DO use the same sort of stuff at Olympic level as at the local weekend club- and the more the rules ensure that the gear is convenient, the more popular the sport.


2- If you haven't read the Olympic Commission's requirements for sports, then you don't know what the customer (the IOC) wants. That's like telling someone what car they should buy before you've even asked whether they are a tradie looking for a 4WD work ute or a F1 racer looking to win at Monaco. The IOC is the body that runs the Olympics - how in the world can we ignore what THEY want in THEIR event?

One of the things that the IOC wants to see is a strong international spread of competitors, world champs and medallists. One of sailing's problems is that it's dominated by Europe, Australia and NZ. Historically, windsurfing looked good because medals went to places like Argentina, Netherlands Antilles, China and Hong Kong. Many of the smaller countries subsidise their Olympic windsurfing fleets and if they decide they can't afford to scrap their RSXs and buy windfoilers, they may stop windsurfing - and that means that World Sailing has less reason to keep giving windsurfing an Olympic spot.

We just can't ignore all these sorts of issues when it comes to this very complex question.





I have no idea where you are sourcing your information (I assume Google) but for the sake of civility I'm just going to say that if you can afford a new Tour de France team bike or Olympic kayak you are pretty well off if you are just a weekend warrior.
Where is the incentive for manufacturers to produce better products if out dated products are just as good? Historically manufacturers have intentionally held off on releasing a product just so they can show case it at the Olympics (or other such event) on a high profile athlete.
If you think you can just walk into your local bike shop and buy something that closely resembles a Tour de France team bike you are kidding yourself.
You are also kidding yourself if you think the geometry of the bike you continue to refer to can average 50kmh faster than a Tour or Olympic class bike ON IDENTICAL TERRAINS. You are cherry picking Google searches to back your arguments.
Yes there are many restrictions on equipment in many Olympic events, particularly in events where the economic disparity between nations limits "fair" competition but the generalisations you use weaken your arguments in my opinion.







Kidding myself? Really? What bike racing do you do? How often have you gone around the track in the pack at Heffron or Dunc Grey? What grade were you racing in? What's your best state or national placing? Do you have any experience in bike racing at all?

The detailed specs of the 2016 medal winning bike (and no, it wasn't a new design) were noted down by journos at the time, and you can buy such a bike quite easily. It's a bit of a joke within the bike racing community that there are quite a few weekend warriors throwing around $15k on a "halo bike" like that. The really significant thing is that you can not only buy a really top-line bike for $15k, but you can buy one that looks similar, is only a couple of kg heavier, that anyone can ride, and will perform well whether master's racing or commuting for $1500 or less. That's the way road cycling works. It's very different from where windsurfing has ended up, and windsurfing's not doing well.

Yes, the world's fastest bikes can do 50 kmh faster than a Tour bike on the same (flat) terrain. The world record is over 130 kmh.


And these super-fast machines are not used in any major event - because cycling knows that the way to grow a sport is by making sure the legends use gear that weekend warriors can use. Similarly, there are plenty of older TT bikes, like mine, that would be faster along most roads than a top level road bike (and that's going off wind tunnel Cd figures).

I'm sourcing my information from stacks of mags and a shelf-full of books on bike racing, study I did for a PhD on the influence of equipment regulation and sport participation, Google for details, more than a decade in the sailing and windsurfing industry, discussions with lots of people in the industry, and winning or placing in nationals or states in a whole bunch of different classes. That's not just Google. But if we want to make informed decisions about what makes sports popular, and what the IOC and World Sailing want, even just Googling can be a good start.



AUS169
NSW, 58 posts
4 Nov 2019 9:32PM
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Chris 249 said..




John340 said..





RichardG said..






John340 said..
Will the inclusion of the iFoil in the Olympics attract foilers from the PWA?










Probably not since iFoil is one design. I don't think Fanatic, NP, JP, Tabou, Gaastra, Duotone etc would want their sponsored riders supporting Starboard/Severne. The 95 cm width is different to the PWA widths of 91 cm for slalom foil and 100cm for race foil and the sails in PWA will evolve whereas the foil sails for foil will remain as Hyper Glide Olympic versions limited to one sail ie: 8 m2 for ladies and 9 m2 for men. The Hyper Glide Olympic sail is an evolution of the Hyper Glide 2 sail, but the Severne R&D team is working intensely on further evolutions of the Hyper Glide 2 to accommodate next level PWA and course racing. Also the foil for iFoil will remain one design as I understand it whereas foils in PWA will evolve constantly. Optimal weights and fitness for iFoil may also not accord with the weights and fitness of PWA sailors due to differing equipment and sails.







Would it then be possible that the best foilers will not be competing in the Olympics?






Why do you assume the PWA guys will be the top foiler sailors by 2024? According to PWA World Champ Matteo Iachino just seven or eight guys really make a living from the PWA (see www.windsurf.co.uk/featured/pwa-slalom-slalom-cents/8/) whereas some of the Olympic teams have enormous funding - the British and Australians alone have over 20 million bucks a year just for Olympic sailing. Even a "minor" sailing nation like Ireland can offer a top Olympic sailor a direct grant of $80,000 P.A. in addition to their other funding. And many of the Olympic sailors tend to have full time coaches and to spend less of their money shipping multiple boards around to venues.

There are 489 sailors on the current RSX ranking list and just 74 sailors on the PWA foil racing ranking list, so unless we have some reason to think that the Olympians are **** - and we do not - then on numbers alone it is very likely that there are more top Olympic sailors than top PWA sailors.

So.... since there are far more Olympic class racers than PWA racers, and there's probably at least as much cash running around for the Olympic racers, then why would the PWA guys be better?





Chris 249,

The following is an opinion. With no disrespect or argument.

The ifoil from Starboard/Severne has got up for #Paris2024. As previously stated it will be a multi manufacturer platform.

The sailors, will be, who they will be (RS;X, Raceboard, PWA, Slalom, Formula, Techno or your neighbours kid, whoever).

With Olympic (Government grants) and / or corporate money and anyone else they can scrape some funds and time together.

Let's hope that we can watch them and ourselves all get on the water and have fun (the young, the youth, old and not so old).

The best selected go race in Paris in 2024 and the rest of us, let's watch something truely fun on TV, if we can't be there in person.

Life's short. Foil for life.

Paducah
2451 posts
4 Nov 2019 10:34PM
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RichardG said..

I am not sure your point is accurate. Remember you can purchase a secondhand Laser for a relatively small amount on Gumtree and compete in club racing which is where a campaign starts. You can't do that with an iFoil right now which has a steeper entry price and I don't know how many people will buy new iFoils and sail them in clubs around Australia. I don't even know if the iFoil Olympic gear is available now in Australia at any event. What will be its retail price inc GST in AUD ?




One can buy a second hand formula board, used 9 m race sail and decent foil and get started foil racing. A U19 did just that and came in second (overall) in a regional foil championship I recently attended beating out a lot of foil specific gear. Because one design is intended to minimize the effect of differing equipment doesn't mean that there is a big disparity in performance among different setups as the results in the PWA or other top level foil events demonstrate. Not having an iFoil today doesn't mean that a young foiler can't acquire the necessary skills. As their results and interest progress, they can see if they want to pursue the iFoil full time or not without having plunked down the whole bit up front. The technical craft of racing (starts, laylines, etc) and foiling (tacks, jibes, control overpowered, etc) is more important in the first years rather than being on specific equipment as it may be in some other sailing classes.

The winner of the Engadinwind event demonstrated this by switching sail brands just before the race (due to luff length restrictions). It took him no time at all to switch sails and remain competitive win the event.

It's not as dire as many of you who don't foil suggest.

duzzi
991 posts
5 Nov 2019 12:36AM
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P.C_simpson said..
Not sure it was the best move, it's now turned into a rich kid sport, before you even race in the class your up for $6'500 for the iFoil setup.

At least with RSX and Windsurfer LT you can learn well enough on any cheap used equipment, and the skills pretty much transfer straight over to a competitive set up, Foiling on any level pretty much rules out any young kid that don't have rich parents from getting into a sport they watch in the olympics.


I am not sure RS:X is much cheaper, the board alone is 2900 Euros according to the NP web site. Add boom, mast and sail and you are not that far, plus you have to buy equipment with close to zero resale value . In addition you can race foiling on very cheap equipment even now ... something that you cannot really do on a RS:X.

And yes, unfortunately, windsurfing and sailing are well-off middle class and up sports ... like other sports that involve equipment and training on location (skying comes to mind) ...

Paducah
2451 posts
5 Nov 2019 1:22AM
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Chris 249 said..


So.... since there are far more Olympic class racers than PWA racers, and there's probably at least as much cash running around for the Olympic racers, then why would the PWA guys be better?


Because some of the top PWA foilers are or have been also top RS:X sailors already (1 and 2 in the 2019 Worlds). Kiran, Dorian, the Goyard bros, etc. Same goes on the women's side.

It's the RS:X crew that would shine in PWA windward/leeward racing this year and kicked the whole level up a notch.

cammd
QLD, 3467 posts
5 Nov 2019 7:41AM
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duzzi said..

P.C_simpson said..
Not sure it was the best move, it's now turned into a rich kid sport, before you even race in the class your up for $6'500 for the iFoil setup.

At least with RSX and Windsurfer LT you can learn well enough on any cheap used equipment, and the skills pretty much transfer straight over to a competitive set up, Foiling on any level pretty much rules out any young kid that don't have rich parents from getting into a sport they watch in the olympics.



I am not sure RS:X is much cheaper, the board alone is 2900 Euros according to the NP web site. Add boom, mast and sail and you are not that far, plus you have to buy equipment with close to zero resale value . In addition you can race foiling on very cheap equipment even now ... something that you cannot really do on a RS:X.

And yes, unfortunately, windsurfing and sailing are well-off middle class and up sports ... like other sports that involve equipment and training on location (skying comes to mind) ...


I disagree, if you want to race one design you need one design gear, who is going to turn up to an ifoil regatta on a second hand formula board with a NP pinkie foil and a 6 year old reflex3 , the answer is no one, and if you do and you win your disqualified. Same goes for any other class imagine going to a LT regatta with an old IMCO.

Further in one sentence you say RSX is almost as expensive than in the next you say it has no resale value, so you kind of contradicted yourself because clearly you can sale RSX cheap, you just need SH equipment to start in the class.

duzzi
991 posts
5 Nov 2019 6:33AM
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cammd said..


duzzi said..

P.C_simpson said..
Not sure it was the best move, it's now turned into a rich kid sport, before you even race in the class your up for $6'500 for the iFoil setup.

At least with RSX and Windsurfer LT you can learn well enough on any cheap used equipment, and the skills pretty much transfer straight over to a competitive set up, Foiling on any level pretty much rules out any young kid that don't have rich parents from getting into a sport they watch in the olympics.



I am not sure RS:X is much cheaper, the board alone is 2900 Euros according to the NP web site. Add boom, mast and sail and you are not that far, plus you have to buy equipment with close to zero resale value . In addition you can race foiling on very cheap equipment even now ... something that you cannot really do on a RS:X.

And yes, unfortunately, windsurfing and sailing are well-off middle class and up sports ... like other sports that involve equipment and training on location (skying comes to mind) ...


I disagree, if you want to race one design you need one design gear, who is going to turn up to an ifoil regatta on a second hand formula board with a NP pinkie foil and a 6 year old reflex3 , the answer is no one, and if you do and you win your disqualified. Same goes for any other class imagine going to a LT regatta with an old IMCO.

Further in one sentence you say RSX is almost as expensive than in the next you say it has no resale value, so you kind of contradicted yourself because clearly you can sale RSX cheap, you just need SH equipment to start in the class.


If you buy a iFoil you can be pretty sure that somebody eventually will buy it used. I might be wrong, but I cannot imagine (nor I have ever seen) a windsurfer who is (was) not training for the Olympic on a a RS:X. I see often enough other "clumsy" boards: Formula, racing boards, big slalom boards with 9.0s. But I never saw a RS:X. So it would seem that it is not only as expensive as the iFoil (or very close), but it also would have no resale value.

There are a few hundreds of competitors worldwide racing the RS:X. I don't see why we will not see many more racing foils than that in five years. We'll see. But really ... we'll look back at footage like this and think: Why people were so crazy to go around on a bizarre big slab of door like that to be pummeled by the seas? (look at the starting line: they are not even really planing consistently!)

Grantmac
1953 posts
5 Nov 2019 7:35AM
Thumbs Up

What some people seem to miss is that a person can easily build all the skills required for the IFoil in an open foiling class. Be it some local class where anything goes or a PWA setup.
The RSX is different, it requires a specific skillset not to mention a physicality that makes it something NOBODY sails for pleasure.

I know dozens of people locally on "race" foil setups just cruising for enjoyment, I've never even seen an RSX. Also those guys on foils were on raceboards 3 years ago, now it's rare to see one. So not like they've come from slalom etc.

Paducah
2451 posts
5 Nov 2019 7:53AM
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Grantmac said..
What some people seem to miss is that a person can easily build all the skills required for the IFoil in an open foiling class. Be it some local class where anything goes or a PWA setup.
The RSX is different, it requires a specific skillset not to mention a physicality that makes it something NOBODY sails for pleasure.

I know dozens of people locally on "race" foil setups just cruising for enjoyment, I've never even seen an RSX. Also those guys on foils were on raceboards 3 years ago, now it's rare to see one. So not like they've come from slalom etc.


I was about to post just this. Windfoil racing is SO much about a) general foiling technique and b) racing tactics. Whether you are on a GA, Phantom, Severne, or NP sail is insignificant as the PWA demonstrated. The one design aspect simplifies equipment and budgets without amplifying one particular set of skills (e.g. Div II, RS:X) not widely used outside of the class.

I have seen one RS:X board and one sail (not at the same time). The board was on top of a car and the sail was on a foilboard.

RichardG
WA, 3743 posts
5 Nov 2019 8:26AM
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Select to expand quote
Paducah said..





Grantmac said..
What some people seem to miss is that a person can easily build all the skills required for the IFoil in an open foiling class. Be it some local class where anything goes or a PWA setup.
The RSX is different, it requires a specific skillset not to mention a physicality that makes it something NOBODY sails for pleasure.

I know dozens of people locally on "race" foil setups just cruising for enjoyment, I've never even seen an RSX. Also those guys on foils were on raceboards 3 years ago, now it's rare to see one. So not like they've come from slalom etc.







I was about to post just this. Windfoil racing is SO much about a) general foiling technique and b) racing tactics. Whether you are on a GA, Phantom, Severne, or NP sail is insignificant as the PWA demonstrated. The one design aspect simplifies equipment and budgets without amplifying one particular set of skills (e.g. Div II, RS:X) not widely used outside of the class.

I have seen one RS:X board and one sail (not at the same time). The board was on top of a car and the sail was on a foilboard.






Paducah, Where do you sail ? which country ? at a sailing club ? What size local fleets are you foil racing in ? Just interested to see if foil racing is big where you are....It is not big in Western Australia but we have a fleet of 2 or 3 racing informally but many more foil sailors sailing free foiling but not racing. We have over 30 LTs but attract 6 -10 weekly for racing every Sunday. We had 24 sailors in our first LT State Championship in 2019. Just wondering if we can expect growth in one design foiling in clubs in Australia but at the prices quoted in Euro (exc GST) I have my doubts. Thanks.

gorgesailor
598 posts
5 Nov 2019 9:32AM
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Select to expand quote
RichardG said..

Paducah said..






Grantmac said..
What some people seem to miss is that a person can easily build all the skills required for the IFoil in an open foiling class. Be it some local class where anything goes or a PWA setup.
The RSX is different, it requires a specific skillset not to mention a physicality that makes it something NOBODY sails for pleasure.

I know dozens of people locally on "race" foil setups just cruising for enjoyment, I've never even seen an RSX. Also those guys on foils were on raceboards 3 years ago, now it's rare to see one. So not like they've come from slalom etc.








I was about to post just this. Windfoil racing is SO much about a) general foiling technique and b) racing tactics. Whether you are on a GA, Phantom, Severne, or NP sail is insignificant as the PWA demonstrated. The one design aspect simplifies equipment and budgets without amplifying one particular set of skills (e.g. Div II, RS:X) not widely used outside of the class.

I have seen one RS:X board and one sail (not at the same time). The board was on top of a car and the sail was on a foilboard.







Paducah, Where do you sail ? which country ? at a sailing club ? What size local fleets are you foil racing in ? Just interested to see if foil racing is big where you are....It is not big in Western Australia but we have a fleet of 2 or 3 racing informally but many more foil sailors sailing free foiling but not racing. We have over 30 LTs but attract 6 -10 weekly for racing every Sunday. We had 24 sailors in our first LT State Championship in 2019. Just wondering if we can expect growth in one design foiling in clubs in Australia but at the prices quoted in Euro (exc GST) I have my doubts. Thanks.


On the West Coast of the US, we have seen Foil racing since people first started foiling. I have never seen an RSX anywhere on the West Coast, & only a few LT's with none racing. I am sure this will change(the LT's not the RSX) but I am also sure the Windfoil racing will continue to gain momentum & I would be very surprised if it is not the most popular form of windsurf racing in the US within a year or 2.

cammd
QLD, 3467 posts
5 Nov 2019 11:46AM
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duzzi said..

cammd said..



duzzi said..


P.C_simpson said..
Not sure it was the best move, it's now turned into a rich kid sport, before you even race in the class your up for $6'500 for the iFoil setup.

At least with RSX and Windsurfer LT you can learn well enough on any cheap used equipment, and the skills pretty much transfer straight over to a competitive set up, Foiling on any level pretty much rules out any young kid that don't have rich parents from getting into a sport they watch in the olympics.




I am not sure RS:X is much cheaper, the board alone is 2900 Euros according to the NP web site. Add boom, mast and sail and you are not that far, plus you have to buy equipment with close to zero resale value . In addition you can race foiling on very cheap equipment even now ... something that you cannot really do on a RS:X.

And yes, unfortunately, windsurfing and sailing are well-off middle class and up sports ... like other sports that involve equipment and training on location (skying comes to mind) ...



I disagree, if you want to race one design you need one design gear, who is going to turn up to an ifoil regatta on a second hand formula board with a NP pinkie foil and a 6 year old reflex3 , the answer is no one, and if you do and you win your disqualified. Same goes for any other class imagine going to a LT regatta with an old IMCO.

Further in one sentence you say RSX is almost as expensive than in the next you say it has no resale value, so you kind of contradicted yourself because clearly you can sale RSX cheap, you just need SH equipment to start in the class.



If you buy a iFoil you can be pretty sure that somebody eventually will buy it used. I might be wrong, but I cannot imagine (nor I have ever seen) a windsurfer who is (was) not training for the Olympic on a a RS:X. I see often enough other "clumsy" boards: Formula, racing boards, big slalom boards with 9.0s. But I never saw a RS:X. So it would seem that it is not only as expensive as the iFoil (or very close), but it also would have no resale value.

There are a few hundreds of competitors worldwide racing the RS:X. I don't see why we will not see many more racing foils than that in five years. We'll see. But really ... we'll look back at footage like this and think: Why people were so crazy to go around on a bizarre big slab of door like that to be pummeled by the seas? (look at the starting line: they are not even really planing consistently!)


Do you even race windsufers, I am assuming not given your comments about other clumsy boards, the comment just seems ignorant.

duzzi
991 posts
5 Nov 2019 9:53AM
Thumbs Up

Select to expand quote
cammd said..


duzzi said..



cammd said..





duzzi said..




P.C_simpson said..
Not sure it was the best move, it's now turned into a rich kid sport, before you even race in the class your up for $6'500 for the iFoil setup.

At least with RSX and Windsurfer LT you can learn well enough on any cheap used equipment, and the skills pretty much transfer straight over to a competitive set up, Foiling on any level pretty much rules out any young kid that don't have rich parents from getting into a sport they watch in the olympics.






I am not sure RS:X is much cheaper, the board alone is 2900 Euros according to the NP web site. Add boom, mast and sail and you are not that far, plus you have to buy equipment with close to zero resale value . In addition you can race foiling on very cheap equipment even now ... something that you cannot really do on a RS:X.

And yes, unfortunately, windsurfing and sailing are well-off middle class and up sports ... like other sports that involve equipment and training on location (skying comes to mind) ...





I disagree, if you want to race one design you need one design gear, who is going to turn up to an ifoil regatta on a second hand formula board with a NP pinkie foil and a 6 year old reflex3 , the answer is no one, and if you do and you win your disqualified. Same goes for any other class imagine going to a LT regatta with an old IMCO.

Further in one sentence you say RSX is almost as expensive than in the next you say it has no resale value, so you kind of contradicted yourself because clearly you can sale RSX cheap, you just need SH equipment to start in the class.





If you buy a iFoil you can be pretty sure that somebody eventually will buy it used. I might be wrong, but I cannot imagine (nor I have ever seen) a windsurfer who is (was) not training for the Olympic on a a RS:X. I see often enough other "clumsy" boards: Formula, racing boards, big slalom boards with 9.0s. But I never saw a RS:X. So it would seem that it is not only as expensive as the iFoil (or very close), but it also would have no resale value.

There are a few hundreds of competitors worldwide racing the RS:X. I don't see why we will not see many more racing foils than that in five years. We'll see. But really ... we'll look back at footage like this and think: Why people were so crazy to go around on a bizarre big slab of door like that to be pummeled by the seas? (look at the starting line: they are not even really planing consistently!)




Do you even race windsufers, I am assuming not given your comments about other clumsy boards, the comment just seems ignorant.



Oh, I see you are one of those who like to insult other people. Very disqualifying but often people who insult others do not mind.

Anyway, yes I raced windsurf division II and than slalom on and off for years until I got sick. Might go back to race foil if I can master it. It is way less demanding than slalom and next year there is going to be open class foil racing in the Bay Area ... have never heard of RS:X racing around here or ... anywhere really.

cammd
QLD, 3467 posts
5 Nov 2019 11:54AM
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Grantmac said..
What some people seem to miss is that a person can easily build all the skills required for the IFoil in an open foiling class. Be it some local class where anything goes or a PWA setup.
The RSX is different, it requires a specific skillset not to mention a physicality that makes it something NOBODY sails for pleasure.

I know dozens of people locally on "race" foil setups just cruising for enjoyment, I've never even seen an RSX. Also those guys on foils were on raceboards 3 years ago, now it's rare to see one. So not like they've come from slalom etc.


I just have to call BS, before you even start to build foiling skills you need to have windsurfing skills, the one's needed for RSX or techno or Formula or windsurfer or slalom. FFS so many comments from people about RSX and by their own admission they have never even seen one let alone sailed one.

Another thing the popularity of RSX is measured by the number of people that sail it whereas you guys all want to measure the popularity of ifoil by everyone who has foiled. Thats BS as well, plenty of people foil in my local but only three race them and no one races an ifoil. A class has just been selected for Olympics and atm it doesn't even exist. Don't go bagging RSX before ifoil even has a single run on the board, it has a long way to go just to equal the success of RSX. Lets hope it was a good decision because the future of Olympic windsurfing will depend on it I suspect.

cammd
QLD, 3467 posts
5 Nov 2019 11:56AM
Thumbs Up

Select to expand quote
duzzi said..


cammd said..



duzzi said..




cammd said..






duzzi said..





P.C_simpson said..
Not sure it was the best move, it's now turned into a rich kid sport, before you even race in the class your up for $6'500 for the iFoil setup.

At least with RSX and Windsurfer LT you can learn well enough on any cheap used equipment, and the skills pretty much transfer straight over to a competitive set up, Foiling on any level pretty much rules out any young kid that don't have rich parents from getting into a sport they watch in the olympics.







I am not sure RS:X is much cheaper, the board alone is 2900 Euros according to the NP web site. Add boom, mast and sail and you are not that far, plus you have to buy equipment with close to zero resale value . In addition you can race foiling on very cheap equipment even now ... something that you cannot really do on a RS:X.

And yes, unfortunately, windsurfing and sailing are well-off middle class and up sports ... like other sports that involve equipment and training on location (skying comes to mind) ...






I disagree, if you want to race one design you need one design gear, who is going to turn up to an ifoil regatta on a second hand formula board with a NP pinkie foil and a 6 year old reflex3 , the answer is no one, and if you do and you win your disqualified. Same goes for any other class imagine going to a LT regatta with an old IMCO.

Further in one sentence you say RSX is almost as expensive than in the next you say it has no resale value, so you kind of contradicted yourself because clearly you can sale RSX cheap, you just need SH equipment to start in the class.






If you buy a iFoil you can be pretty sure that somebody eventually will buy it used. I might be wrong, but I cannot imagine (nor I have ever seen) a windsurfer who is (was) not training for the Olympic on a a RS:X. I see often enough other "clumsy" boards: Formula, racing boards, big slalom boards with 9.0s. But I never saw a RS:X. So it would seem that it is not only as expensive as the iFoil (or very close), but it also would have no resale value.

There are a few hundreds of competitors worldwide racing the RS:X. I don't see why we will not see many more racing foils than that in five years. We'll see. But really ... we'll look back at footage like this and think: Why people were so crazy to go around on a bizarre big slab of door like that to be pummeled by the seas? (look at the starting line: they are not even really planing consistently!)





Do you even race windsufers, I am assuming not given your comments about other clumsy boards, the comment just seems ignorant.




Oh, I see you are one of those who like to insult other people. Anyway, yes I raced slalom until I got a heart attack. Might go back to race foil if I can master it ...



Your one throwing around comments about "clumsy" boards and "bizarre big slabs", you don't consider that might insult someone.

Chris 249
NSW, 3215 posts
5 Nov 2019 1:09PM
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Select to expand quote
Grantmac said..
What some people seem to miss is that a person can easily build all the skills required for the IFoil in an open foiling class. Be it some local class where anything goes or a PWA setup.
The RSX is different, it requires a specific skillset not to mention a physicality that makes it something NOBODY sails for pleasure.

I know dozens of people locally on "race" foil setups just cruising for enjoyment, I've never even seen an RSX. Also those guys on foils were on raceboards 3 years ago, now it's rare to see one. So not like they've come from slalom etc.



Looking at the Windfoil nationals, as far as I know the sailors came from the following backgrounds;

Raceboard - 6
Formula - 6
Speed - 3
Freestyle - 1
Techno - 3
Slalom - 4
RSX - 1
Boats - 1 or 2

It doesn't really seem as if "those guys on foils" were all on RBs three years ago, and some of them were on slalom boards. The RBs are getting more entries to their states than the windfoilers did to their nationals so it's not rare to see one if you're where they hang out, and vice versa.

Why is it easier to build up the skills for i foil on an open foiler than it would have been to build up the skills for RSX on a Prodigy, Phantom hybrid, or even a Raceboard? Looking at other Olympic classes, one rarely saw anyone building up skills for Olympic Laser racing in an Impulse dinghy, or sailing a 12 Foot Skiff as training for 49ers.

None of this is dissing windfoiling (which I'd like to get into, unlike RSX), it's just discussing the claims that people make and asking for information.

duzzi
991 posts
5 Nov 2019 10:14AM
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Select to expand quote
cammd said..



duzzi said..





cammd said..






duzzi said..







cammd said..









duzzi said..








P.C_simpson said..
Not sure it was the best move, it's now turned into a rich kid sport, before you even race in the class your up for $6'500 for the iFoil setup.

At least with RSX and Windsurfer LT you can learn well enough on any cheap used equipment, and the skills pretty much transfer straight over to a competitive set up, Foiling on any level pretty much rules out any young kid that don't have rich parents from getting into a sport they watch in the olympics.










I am not sure RS:X is much cheaper, the board alone is 2900 Euros according to the NP web site. Add boom, mast and sail and you are not that far, plus you have to buy equipment with close to zero resale value . In addition you can race foiling on very cheap equipment even now ... something that you cannot really do on a RS:X.

And yes, unfortunately, windsurfing and sailing are well-off middle class and up sports ... like other sports that involve equipment and training on location (skying comes to mind) ...









I disagree, if you want to race one design you need one design gear, who is going to turn up to an ifoil regatta on a second hand formula board with a NP pinkie foil and a 6 year old reflex3 , the answer is no one, and if you do and you win your disqualified. Same goes for any other class imagine going to a LT regatta with an old IMCO.

Further in one sentence you say RSX is almost as expensive than in the next you say it has no resale value, so you kind of contradicted yourself because clearly you can sale RSX cheap, you just need SH equipment to start in the class.









If you buy a iFoil you can be pretty sure that somebody eventually will buy it used. I might be wrong, but I cannot imagine (nor I have ever seen) a windsurfer who is (was) not training for the Olympic on a a RS:X. I see often enough other "clumsy" boards: Formula, racing boards, big slalom boards with 9.0s. But I never saw a RS:X. So it would seem that it is not only as expensive as the iFoil (or very close), but it also would have no resale value.

There are a few hundreds of competitors worldwide racing the RS:X. I don't see why we will not see many more racing foils than that in five years. We'll see. But really ... we'll look back at footage like this and think: Why people were so crazy to go around on a bizarre big slab of door like that to be pummeled by the seas? (look at the starting line: they are not even really planing consistently!)








Do you even race windsufers, I am assuming not given your comments about other clumsy boards, the comment just seems ignorant.







Oh, I see you are one of those who like to insult other people. Anyway, yes I raced slalom until I got a heart attack. Might go back to race foil if I can master it ...






Your one throwing around comments about "clumsy" boards and "bizarre big slabs", you don't consider that might insult someone.




Select to expand quote
cammd said..



duzzi said..





cammd said..






duzzi said..







cammd said..









duzzi said..








P.C_simpson said..
Not sure it was the best move, it's now turned into a rich kid sport, before you even race in the class your up for $6'500 for the iFoil setup.

At least with RSX and Windsurfer LT you can learn well enough on any cheap used equipment, and the skills pretty much transfer straight over to a competitive set up, Foiling on any level pretty much rules out any young kid that don't have rich parents from getting into a sport they watch in the olympics.










I am not sure RS:X is much cheaper, the board alone is 2900 Euros according to the NP web site. Add boom, mast and sail and you are not that far, plus you have to buy equipment with close to zero resale value . In addition you can race foiling on very cheap equipment even now ... something that you cannot really do on a RS:X.

And yes, unfortunately, windsurfing and sailing are well-off middle class and up sports ... like other sports that involve equipment and training on location (skying comes to mind) ...









I disagree, if you want to race one design you need one design gear, who is going to turn up to an ifoil regatta on a second hand formula board with a NP pinkie foil and a 6 year old reflex3 , the answer is no one, and if you do and you win your disqualified. Same goes for any other class imagine going to a LT regatta with an old IMCO.

Further in one sentence you say RSX is almost as expensive than in the next you say it has no resale value, so you kind of contradicted yourself because clearly you can sale RSX cheap, you just need SH equipment to start in the class.









If you buy a iFoil you can be pretty sure that somebody eventually will buy it used. I might be wrong, but I cannot imagine (nor I have ever seen) a windsurfer who is (was) not training for the Olympic on a a RS:X. I see often enough other "clumsy" boards: Formula, racing boards, big slalom boards with 9.0s. But I never saw a RS:X. So it would seem that it is not only as expensive as the iFoil (or very close), but it also would have no resale value.

There are a few hundreds of competitors worldwide racing the RS:X. I don't see why we will not see many more racing foils than that in five years. We'll see. But really ... we'll look back at footage like this and think: Why people were so crazy to go around on a bizarre big slab of door like that to be pummeled by the seas? (look at the starting line: they are not even really planing consistently!)








Do you even race windsufers, I am assuming not given your comments about other clumsy boards, the comment just seems ignorant.







Oh, I see you are one of those who like to insult other people. Anyway, yes I raced slalom until I got a heart attack. Might go back to race foil if I can master it ...






Your one throwing around comments about "clumsy" boards and "bizarre big slabs", you don't consider that might insult someone.




Oh no no, it is very different to call a person "ignorant" vs describing objects (in more or less flattering ways). Just to clarify: by "clumsy" I just meant all those windsurfs that are not nice and svelte like a wave board, small freestyle or a small slalom. So pile in there, just for the sake of classification, anything wider than 70 cm and/or longer than 350. I owned plenty of "clumsy" boards (my last one is a foil specific 78 wide with a 75 tail!) but the point is that any of those clumsy boards have a used market (ok ... maybe race boards don't very much and Formula are now in demand because people want to use them with a foil) , while a RS:X (that does look like a big slab) has none.

Chris 249
NSW, 3215 posts
5 Nov 2019 1:23PM
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AUS169 said..





Chris 249,

The following is an opinion. With no disrespect or argument.

The ifoil from Starboard/Severne has got up for #Paris2024. As previously stated it will be a multi manufacturer platform.

The sailors, will be, who they will be (RS;X, Raceboard, PWA, Slalom, Formula, Techno or your neighbours kid, whoever).

With Olympic (Government grants) and / or corporate money and anyone else they can scrape some funds and time together.

Let's hope that we can watch them and ourselves all get on the water and have fun (the young, the youth, old and not so old).

The best selected go race in Paris in 2024 and the rest of us, let's watch something truely fun on TV, if we can't be there in person.

Life's short. Foil for life.


I agree with almost all of that. It's just that the whole topic of gear and its effect on participation in sport is a topic that is fascinating and seems vitally important, in a time when far too many people are getting far too little activity and when sailing and windsurfing have declined so much. It also gets a bit frustrating when people say things but refuse to give the slightest factual backing for them, and when people tell me I know nothing about a sport in which I perform better than they do in windsurfing!

The other interesting thing is whether the ifoil has "got up" for 2024 yet. The press releases are saying that the selection will be ratified at the General Assembly, but in 2012 the General Assembly overturned the General Council's decision to throw windsurfing out and put kites in.

As I've said before, I'm not against windfoiling and I really dislike the RSX so I'm not biased. Having been in three classes that were selected for the Games I'm also not sure that selection would be a good thing for windfoiling, or for windsurfing.

cammd
QLD, 3467 posts
5 Nov 2019 12:46PM
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Select to expand quote
duzzi said..

cammd said..




duzzi said..






cammd said..







duzzi said..








cammd said..










duzzi said..









P.C_simpson said..
Not sure it was the best move, it's now turned into a rich kid sport, before you even race in the class your up for $6'500 for the iFoil setup.

At least with RSX and Windsurfer LT you can learn well enough on any cheap used equipment, and the skills pretty much transfer straight over to a competitive set up, Foiling on any level pretty much rules out any young kid that don't have rich parents from getting into a sport they watch in the olympics.











I am not sure RS:X is much cheaper, the board alone is 2900 Euros according to the NP web site. Add boom, mast and sail and you are not that far, plus you have to buy equipment with close to zero resale value . In addition you can race foiling on very cheap equipment even now ... something that you cannot really do on a RS:X.

And yes, unfortunately, windsurfing and sailing are well-off middle class and up sports ... like other sports that involve equipment and training on location (skying comes to mind) ...










I disagree, if you want to race one design you need one design gear, who is going to turn up to an ifoil regatta on a second hand formula board with a NP pinkie foil and a 6 year old reflex3 , the answer is no one, and if you do and you win your disqualified. Same goes for any other class imagine going to a LT regatta with an old IMCO.

Further in one sentence you say RSX is almost as expensive than in the next you say it has no resale value, so you kind of contradicted yourself because clearly you can sale RSX cheap, you just need SH equipment to start in the class.










If you buy a iFoil you can be pretty sure that somebody eventually will buy it used. I might be wrong, but I cannot imagine (nor I have ever seen) a windsurfer who is (was) not training for the Olympic on a a RS:X. I see often enough other "clumsy" boards: Formula, racing boards, big slalom boards with 9.0s. But I never saw a RS:X. So it would seem that it is not only as expensive as the iFoil (or very close), but it also would have no resale value.

There are a few hundreds of competitors worldwide racing the RS:X. I don't see why we will not see many more racing foils than that in five years. We'll see. But really ... we'll look back at footage like this and think: Why people were so crazy to go around on a bizarre big slab of door like that to be pummeled by the seas? (look at the starting line: they are not even really planing consistently!)









Do you even race windsufers, I am assuming not given your comments about other clumsy boards, the comment just seems ignorant.








Oh, I see you are one of those who like to insult other people. Anyway, yes I raced slalom until I got a heart attack. Might go back to race foil if I can master it ...







Your one throwing around comments about "clumsy" boards and "bizarre big slabs", you don't consider that might insult someone.






cammd said..




duzzi said..






cammd said..







duzzi said..








cammd said..










duzzi said..









P.C_simpson said..
Not sure it was the best move, it's now turned into a rich kid sport, before you even race in the class your up for $6'500 for the iFoil setup.

At least with RSX and Windsurfer LT you can learn well enough on any cheap used equipment, and the skills pretty much transfer straight over to a competitive set up, Foiling on any level pretty much rules out any young kid that don't have rich parents from getting into a sport they watch in the olympics.











I am not sure RS:X is much cheaper, the board alone is 2900 Euros according to the NP web site. Add boom, mast and sail and you are not that far, plus you have to buy equipment with close to zero resale value . In addition you can race foiling on very cheap equipment even now ... something that you cannot really do on a RS:X.

And yes, unfortunately, windsurfing and sailing are well-off middle class and up sports ... like other sports that involve equipment and training on location (skying comes to mind) ...










I disagree, if you want to race one design you need one design gear, who is going to turn up to an ifoil regatta on a second hand formula board with a NP pinkie foil and a 6 year old reflex3 , the answer is no one, and if you do and you win your disqualified. Same goes for any other class imagine going to a LT regatta with an old IMCO.

Further in one sentence you say RSX is almost as expensive than in the next you say it has no resale value, so you kind of contradicted yourself because clearly you can sale RSX cheap, you just need SH equipment to start in the class.










If you buy a iFoil you can be pretty sure that somebody eventually will buy it used. I might be wrong, but I cannot imagine (nor I have ever seen) a windsurfer who is (was) not training for the Olympic on a a RS:X. I see often enough other "clumsy" boards: Formula, racing boards, big slalom boards with 9.0s. But I never saw a RS:X. So it would seem that it is not only as expensive as the iFoil (or very close), but it also would have no resale value.

There are a few hundreds of competitors worldwide racing the RS:X. I don't see why we will not see many more racing foils than that in five years. We'll see. But really ... we'll look back at footage like this and think: Why people were so crazy to go around on a bizarre big slab of door like that to be pummeled by the seas? (look at the starting line: they are not even really planing consistently!)









Do you even race windsufers, I am assuming not given your comments about other clumsy boards, the comment just seems ignorant.








Oh, I see you are one of those who like to insult other people. Anyway, yes I raced slalom until I got a heart attack. Might go back to race foil if I can master it ...







Your one throwing around comments about "clumsy" boards and "bizarre big slabs", you don't consider that might insult someone.





Oh no no, it is very different to call a person "ignorant" vs describing objects (in more or less flattering ways). Just to clarify: by "clumsy" I just meant all those windsurfs that are not nice and svelte like a wave board, small freestyle or a small slalom. So pile in there, just for the sake of classification, anything wider than 70 cm and/or longer than 350. I owned plenty of "clumsy" boards (my last one is a foil specific 78 wide with a 75 tail!) but the point is that any of those clumsy boards have a used market (ok ... maybe race boards don't very much and Formula are now in demand because people want to use them with a foil) , while a RS:X (that does look like a big slab) has none.


I didn't say you were ignorant, I said your comment seemed ignorant, and just to clarify by ignorant I mean a comment that does not originate from first hand experience.

You have never seen an RSX, and you can't even imagine why someone not training for the Olympics would even sail one. Based on your experience with RSX boards and RSX sailors I think it s fair to say it was an ignorant comment.



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"2024 Olympics" started by cammd