Board Building Supplies ????

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hardman
hardman
1116 posts
1116 posts
22 Jun 2004 1:45pm
Thanx Guys most helpful,

Will probably flatten out rocker

Hardie SoftBoy
Bertie
Bertie
NSW
1351 posts
NSW, 1351 posts
22 Jun 2004 5:40pm
Yeah it was Peter and Dan i was talkin about. At least after harrasing Dan for half a season he got a wave board and a 5.0 voodoo however i still think he shouldnt have got the voodoo, they suck balls. But hey at least they both have a feel for how much better the new gear is. And Dan has shown how much easier it is to progress on good gear.
Lets hope Bugsy can produce a sail that doesnt need a 460 mast and has a box head!
I wish u luck with the board shaping, just dont put too much tail rocker in it or it will never plane!
Bertie

www.outdoorshots.com.au/view_sessionshot.php?eid=43&pg=6&sid=04p1313110
www.outdoorshots.com.au/view_sessionshot.php?eid=45&pg=1&sid=04p2043521
Chris Lockwood
Chris Lockwood
WA
9 posts
WA, 9 posts
22 Jun 2004 4:52pm
Hey kids,

Dont listen to Bertie. His numbers will cause a tragedy. (atm -) 75 to 95kpa is way too much vac for a styro blank. You WILL destroy it.

A certain unmentionable forum trawler didn't like the sounds of leaks in the bag when I was making a board in his shed last year, so he sealed them up. My old crusty grandpa vac pump is good for about 60kpa. Mr <he shall remain anonymous> did not realise that these holes in the bag were actually my pressure control valves (I knew I should have labelled them). Next morning I had a nice 1" deep single concave up the middle of the board.

I did this once before using about 75kpa and knew to avoid it. All is not lost though. The styro memory tends to recover if the resin isn't too far cured. If you take the vac off, and get the board nice and warm the resin will soften, the foam will spring out a bit, and you can fix the damage with another layer of PVC. Kiss goodbye to a light finish though.

You have been warned!

:)

decrepit
decrepit
WA
12885 posts
WA, 12885 posts
22 Jun 2004 7:07pm
Chris,
Thanks for the warning!
Trouble is my vacuum guage's first incarnation, was sitting on a car dashboard. The only stuff written on it is, "poor, fair, drive, idle and deccelerate" The last few boards have been done at the "i" in fair.
(EDIT I got my numbers wrong, I've been using about 40 - 50 Kpa)
If we use a lighter foam for Hardie's board, may be I should drop vacuum down to the "f" in fair.
Doing a trial on scrap foam is a better idea.
Cheers.

decrepit
decrepit
decrepit
WA
12885 posts
WA, 12885 posts
22 Jun 2004 7:20pm
Bertie,

Couple of thoughts I missed yesterday, re F & R sales, that's the main reason Hardie started this thread!!!!!
Secondly, how come neither of the outdoor shot boards are ones you've made!!!

Dan's certainly improving fast, but you'd expect that at his age. Wish I'd got into this sport that young!!!!!
Have no fear buggsy's new sails have box heads & a 5.3 will rig on a 430 I think.
But saying that, when you buy from a world class sail designer, isn't it best to leave the design to him????

Cheers.

decrepit
Bertie
Bertie
NSW
1351 posts
NSW, 1351 posts
23 Jun 2004 1:33am
Well spotted Chris. I was giving the vacuum levels that we used when we were using PVC foam only. but i did make note not to suck it too hard. we settled for around 70kPa in the end if i recall properly.
I havent had the oportunity to gin around with EPS....yet unfortunatly.
And the boards i use... i didnt make then coz i dont know enought about the shaping.... i cant afford a dud board coz i'm an unemployed student who has NO income. Plus i got then 2nd hand and cheap. I was looking into making my own formula board but i could have bought last years kinetic for $100 more. Sure if i had time and money i would spend all my time making my own boards but unfortunatly uni gets in my way not to mention a social life.

As for bugsy i'm not gunna tell u what i really feel coz he's prolly a really nice bloke and havent head his design concept/reasoning fron HIS mouth. therfore i have made my own decisions from trying one of his sails... and being polite i didnt like it. The general feel of it made me think it was holding Dan back. As soon as he got on my gear he busted his first ever gybe on his first try. hence he went out and got new gear for himself.
But if he is world class why doesnt he produce sails for an international market instead of shade sails???

www.outdoorshots.com.au/view_sessionshot.php?eid=43&pg=6&sid=04p1313110
www.outdoorshots.com.au/view_sessionshot.php?eid=45&pg=1&sid=04p2043521
big flatus
big flatus
WA
37 posts
WA, 37 posts
23 Jun 2004 12:40am
Bertie…. Hoop suggested Fibreglass and resin sales and then you negate his comment on how expensive they are and to stay away from Fibreglass and resin sales. Now Charlie at fibreglass and resin sales has been one of the most helpful and informative persons I have come across, unlike yourself he has real knowledge he doesn’t go to manufacturers web pages like you do then cut and paste info from the manufactures sites and then paste it on seabreeze in an effort to make himself look psuedo knowledgeable. The man has a business with staff and overheads and is competeing with larger companies and your trying to reduce his business, if that happens then surely his prices will increase thanks to helpful people such as your self.
Now Decrepit has already beaten me to this point.If you are so knowledgeable in the board making process why are you not making and using your own boards and a production board surely someone as wise as yourself would have an idea of their construction and lifespan(if your wondering I have a Delta)
As you don’t know enough about shaping why not get bluejuic or Marty to shape you a blank also why then give advice about tail rocker?
Talking of bluejuice I also notice that he has stoped posting since you sprouted your pseudo knowledge, it looks like you’re the one that’s bragging by talking about busting loops and social life. This is probably one of those phases in your life where you want people to like and admire you, so you pass negative comments about others (including Bugsy and his world class sails) and make yourself seem great, by the time you have realized it bores people you will probably have grown out of it.

Nuff said.


flatus :

A reflex that expels intestinal gas through the anus [syn: fart, farting, wind, breaking wind]

[L., fr. flare to blow.] 1. A breath; a puff of wind. --Clarke.

2. Wind or gas generated in the stomach or other cavities of the body. --Quincy.
hoop
hoop
1979 posts
1979 posts
23 Jun 2004 7:48am
Bertie,You seem to know a lot. How many boards you made ?

jim
Chris Lockwood
Chris Lockwood
WA
9 posts
WA, 9 posts
23 Jun 2004 11:08am
For materials,

Summit Chemicals sells Herex foam pretty cheap. Its way better than divinycell, because its not as brittle and its a lot cheaper.

Steer clear of Termanto, because it is really crap.

Also, Kirkside sells carbon, resin and other FG materials pretty cheap. You can buy some stuff from Colin Earle (mast boxes, inserts, standard glass cloth), and tuttle boxes from Stuart Bell.

With the vac pressures, I had a quality industrial gauge that was calibrated about 10 years ago. Got it from a previous employer before it ended up in the skip bin. Its still probably within 10kPa.

You can definitely go higher that 40 if you have a higher density styro, or use deck-to-bottom stringers.

When the PVC foam is on, you can vac the skin at a higher vacuum. This helps to flatten out the fibre bundles, leaving less pinholes, and less resin. For this reason, I prefer not to use the bleeder wadding. It tends to spread the force more evenly over the cloth, and sink into the gaps in the weave, leaving less pressure to flatten the high spots. Not really ideal IMHO. I weigh the cloth dry, mix up an equivalent mass of resin + ~20%, wet it out on a table, roll it up, then unroll it onto the board.

If its your first, then try to make it light. When there are things wrong with a shape, extra weight tends to exaggerate these effects. Also, spend some time sealing it up. Not nice having your 4.5kg board end up 6kg after one sailing session.

The best advice I ever heard for making a great board first time(but ignored until I learned the hard way that this would have been a good way to go) is to take a board you really like, borrow it for an evening, and measure it up: Rocker within 1mm, V, rail tuck, deck profile, insert positions. Then make a bunch of templates (from monofilm) so you can constantly check your work whilst shaping.

There are so many subtle factors in designing a good board from scratch. The end result is a fine balance between these.

Obvious things like rocker and outline are both critical, but also the V/concaves, rail tuck, insert placement, and deck profile all go into the equation. Just because they work well on one board, doesn't mean they can be married into another without suitable adjustment of the other factors. This is where it really becomes an art.

If you have a radical idea that is not available in a pre-tuned design, expect to make a few boards with the concept before it performs as good as a decent production board. Then again, sometimes we can jag it.

If you just want to make a board which works well, are not interested in creating something radical, and dont have a solid understanding of board shapes, then you really are best off copying something that works.

Chris
hardman
hardman
1116 posts
1116 posts
23 Jun 2004 1:48pm
Thanx for advice it's brilliant

I'll ignore the other stuff

Hardie SoftBoy
Fieldie
Fieldie
WA
361 posts
WA, 361 posts
23 Jun 2004 2:16pm
You can borrow my Naish to copy its superior design characteristics if you like Mr Hardman! Looking forward to the result! (So excitement!!!!)

Go for it Fellas!!!!!!!!!!

There is talk in this thread of A****N sail makers Mate. Have you contact info as looking for repairers closer to Bunbury than Perth?

Getting gone!!!
Seaton
Bertie
Bertie
NSW
1351 posts
NSW, 1351 posts
23 Jun 2004 5:53pm
Sh!t a certain few of u lot need to check ur reading skills. I dont think i should have to justify myself or repeat myself. This is a forum. u should try and go back and read past replies b4 u start rippin the **** out of me. normally i wouldnt write all the stuff i have below, but seeing as i'm not looking to make enemys and want to set my story straoght coz other ppl read this and i wont be bullied by u lot. most of u guys are decent blokes and most of this is just petty.

My first reply stated my F/G experience was from building dinghys... of which i made 3 with my dad.

About Fibreglass and resin sales.... i said only buy from there if u buy in bulk. this is because they r set up like a hobbie shop. if u buy 20kg of resin thir prices are competitive. buy 2kg and u r gettin ripped. I have never spoken to charlie b4 so dont have anything against him.I was simply answering hardie's first question.
quote:
We want to know where to buy reasonably priced materials such as:
I wasn't embarking on a quest to close his shop down. even though my experiences with FG&R sales havent been so great. And charlie has other competition anyway. if he cant give me what i want at the right price i will go buy my stuff somewhere else. This is how normal people shop around for the best price, and others have told us other places where they can get cheap stuff. others have admitted that RG&R arent cheap either. so why direct ur anger based on ur sexual frustration at me???

And the vacuum pressures i said
quote:
ie dont use 98kPa vacuum try about 70kPa
are for PVC (cant remember density but way higher than low density EPS). And the stuff chris said about not using bleeder cloth.... i believe it depends upon the weave of the cloth but the vacuum wont flatten high spots at all. only using a solid female mould would do that. u cant expect a finish from baging that u can just wack a top coat of paint on unless u use a female mould, but then again it depends upon ur mould.

And dissin me about not makin my own boards. i've only been windsurfing for 3 years. i bought my wave board 2 years ago. Back then i had a job and decided that was the best way to go. the Freesex i got as a light wind board on the cheep...$400, i wasnt gunna say no to that.
Now i have time on my hands i cant afford to make my own boards, even with other ppl shaping them for me. I'm a 3rd year Engineering student who cant even afford a car let alone afford running costs. I live at home and DONT get anything from little johnny howard unlike most uni students.
I've taken to drinking Emu Export coz i cant afford Emu Bitter. And just recently started home brew coz i cant afford EE now. But i will never drink goon or passion pop...ever!
So how an i supposed to afford to make my own boards.

Oh and dissing my tech knowledge flatus doesnt bother me. I was saving time by cut and pasting a section that was in laymans terms. The stuff on composites ive studied was a bit to hard to convey on this sort of forum and i thought maybe only engineers would understand what i was writing, and chances are they might know that stuff anyway or be smart enough to go and do some research in a materials Eng text book. (try chapter 16 of , materials science and engineering an introduction, by Callister sixth edition by wiley publishers)

And flatus if u believe all my knowledge is only from reading websites and theoretical uni bull****, i hope it makes u feel better about ur self. I learnt a lot form Nick (who has been in the boat building industry for some 20 years)when we were making the dinghies and the mould. how much boat building do u have flatus??
And flatus have u provided any constructive advice to Hardie or Decrepit on their project? All i did was try to help them and make a point to bluejuice in the hope of trying to encourage him to make his wicked boards totally ****in awesome. ( i admit i was lacking some tact in my methods at the time) but to keep up with the game u need to develop and evolve.
The tail rocker was me refering to a board my mate bought that had too much and was a dog.
And the sails fron SOR i didnt like them even after tuning them for a while, i was commenting on the passion some of the guys from A***N have towards bugsys sails even though they r really old. i prefer the ease of the more current sail designs. i do agree with some of the design concepts bugsy swears by, and am really interested in seeing him produce a current sail.

Alright since u all bagged me about not making my own boards, if i can change my units next semester to do a Project then i will make my own board. However to ensure my project will be approved i would need to make the construction or somethin that hasn't been done much b4. So suggestions of some exciting new concept will be required from u lot. Also the uni only gives me a $200 budget so if some manufacturer wants to sponsor me with materials, feel free to contact me. That is if they let me back into uni. And if they dont... and i get a job then i will have cash to do so.

Oh and flatus last time i checked most people dont aspire to be unemployed unistudents who dont own a car and live at home. unless ur an exception to that rule and u really eny me, so dispise me coz ur not like me??? wtf. "chill winston". maybe u need to go for a sail and relax.
i never said i was perfect and never said i knew everything. and i'm sorry if i hurt feelings aswell.
bertie

www.outdoorshots.com.au/view_sessionshot.php?eid=43&pg=6&sid=04p1313110
www.outdoorshots.com.au/view_sessionshot.php?eid=45&pg=1&sid=04p2043521
SimonM
SimonM
WA
126 posts
WA, 126 posts
23 Jun 2004 6:13pm
On a lighter note....

What, as a round figure, does it cost build a single board if i was to setup and build say two or three boards over as many years (per board). No detail or flaming required it is just interesting.

-Simon M
hoop
hoop
1979 posts
1979 posts
23 Jun 2004 6:36pm
bout $500.

jim
leper111
leper111
WA
108 posts
WA, 108 posts
23 Jun 2004 6:48pm
Quote from Bertie;

"However to ensure my project will be approved i would need to make the construction or somethin that hasn't been done much b4"

Bertie,

How about Aluminium honeycomb core instead of this crappy EPS stuff!!! It could be the way of the future .

Simon.

PS have enjoyed reading all of your banter
decrepit
decrepit
WA
12885 posts
WA, 12885 posts
23 Jun 2004 7:25pm
quote:
Originally posted by kecksoff



There is talk in this thread of A****N sail makers Mate. Have you contact info as looking for repairers closer to Bunbury than Perth?

Seaton


Seaton,
Thought you Bunbury guys new all about A****n Sails, a few people from there certainly used to sail them.
Not supposed to advertise on this forum, but I guess an address and phone # wont hurt.
Unit 2/9 Rouse Rd Mandurah. 9581 9788, 0417 186 593, bugsb@southwest,com.au

decrepit
decrepit
decrepit
WA
12885 posts
WA, 12885 posts
23 Jun 2004 7:43pm
quote:
Originally posted by Chris Lockwood

For materials,

With the vac pressures, I had a quality industrial gauge that was calibrated about 10 years ago. Got it from a previous employer before it ended up in the skip bin. Its still probably within 10kPa.




Chris, my mistake, getting old and confused, it's all this new fangled metric stuff, made a stuff up of the conversion, you can halve my previous figures, now I have to figure out how to edit my post.

decrepit
Bertie
Bertie
NSW
1351 posts
NSW, 1351 posts
23 Jun 2004 10:40pm
trouble with aluminium honeycomb and using carbon is they react electroliticaly especialy with a but of salt water and would end up with a board that that a very short workin lifespan. however the motorsport boys at uni use pleanty of the stuff. only other prob i see is shaping the choneycomb without rootin it all up. but i could autoclave it uning carbon prepreg tho. i dont wanna even think what it would cost to make.

Hoop i would think $500 is a bit cheap for a board. well u gotta get fin box mast track foot straps. and u wouldnt be using any or much carbon??? i conservatively priced it at about $1000 sail away earlier this year when i was thinking about doing it. my good mate leper can vouch for that. i was gunna make him a board but he got a new one instead.

www.outdoorshots.com.au/view_sessionshot.php?eid=43&pg=6&sid=04p1313110
www.outdoorshots.com.au/view_sessionshot.php?eid=45&pg=1&sid=04p2043521
Simon
Simon
WA
275 posts
WA, 275 posts
23 Jun 2004 9:31pm
There you go again Bertie,
The reason Hoops estimates $500, is cause he makes his own, and so probably has a good idea of price, where as you havn't so don't!!!
[;)


Simon
Bertie
Bertie
NSW
1351 posts
NSW, 1351 posts
24 Jun 2004 12:30am
Nah simon i just want to know which shop he burgles to be able to put a board on the water for that much. Coz i wanna join him next time he does. When u consider foots straps at $100 for a set, i saw tracks/boxes for over $50 each somewhere b4, and deck pads arent cheap.

The point is if i make a board i dont wanna do some half arsed job. i want it to be light, strong and last a while. hence ive considered using divinycell layers and using PVC foam under footpads, along with using wood possibly. i dont wanna make a surfboard. hence i want bulk carbon and that costs money. and becides i like my wave board, it rocks. so nuts to u Simon. Ive already but a wiked vacuum pump at home (worth over $1000) and all the baging gear to do a board. so it is inevitable i will make a board ... the question is when!

www.outdoorshots.com.au/view_sessionshot.php?eid=43&pg=6&sid=04p1313110
www.outdoorshots.com.au/view_sessionshot.php?eid=45&pg=1&sid=04p2043521
bluejuice
bluejuice
WA
334 posts
WA, 334 posts
24 Jun 2004 12:04am
WOW I'm awake now!
go Simon,
I'm with Hoop on the $500 mark,
Chris what an exellent well informing and articulate post.
In response to Berties comments re my post I would like to reasure my customers and potential customers.

"u either sucked way too much resin off when u bagged that board or ur manufacturing technique was not right!"
I didn't actually say it was my board it was a friend who made this one it just happened to have the same glass weight and layup.

"Carn oldtimer get with the times..."
I don't know of anyone who doesn't put a filler coat on after laminatining wet or vac bag.

"u could be producing awesome boards ppls u just gotta do ya research and experiment ... oh and be prepared to fork out for carbon. "
I am producing exellent boards I have only had one come back after a huge flat table top landing that we all heard up in the car park and the rail cracked. This board had different experimental glass on it, I have been and am continually doing research, experiments and am in continued contact with world wide shapers.My board also have plenty of carbon in them in the right places.
Glenn Alexander up at Greenhead has been using one of my boards for 3 years now winning heaps of comps and landing double forwards on the same board. Ben Arthur(another comp winner) jumps/loops so hard and high that he could'nt sleep well for the first few weeks of using his bluejuice cause his heels were hurting. Now I'm braging "Also if u brag about baking the boards while the resin cures"
NO Bluejuice boards for Bertie (he has to make his own)
Regards the board nazi

a.k.a. KA202
SimonM
SimonM
WA
126 posts
WA, 126 posts
24 Jun 2004 7:41am
Thanks for the estimate. Do you think it is realistically 'doable' on the first attempt? Bertie, you are a laugh a minute - pull your head in ;)

-Simon M
Simon
Simon
WA
275 posts
WA, 275 posts
24 Jun 2004 7:53am
Mike, you also need to mention to the young whippersnapper, that the Blue Juice in the hire fleet at Go Windsurfing was THE board of choice, over JP's Quatro's and Exocet. After a heavy seasons bashing ,it just has a few chips on the gelcot.i don't know how Mike could have made it any stronger?




Simon
hoop
hoop
1979 posts
1979 posts
24 Jun 2004 8:30am
If your just gonna go slapping carbon on every thing you see your not nescisarily gonna get a brilliant board. It is good stuff but it wont make you do loops or nail your first spock or help you with the ladies. Lots of production boards and lots of custom boards only have it where it is needed and they are light enough and strong enough with out costing a fortune. And Bertie, congratulations on that rant before that was fantastic. What club do you sail at ? If I ever sail there I'll buy you a beer, I feel much better now I know all the emotional trauma you have to deal with just to get by. Keep your chin up Tiger !

jim
Chris Lockwood
Chris Lockwood
WA
9 posts
WA, 9 posts
24 Jun 2004 8:59am
Hey Bertie,

Try not to take all the criticism too hard. Much of it has some good constructive stuff buried in the passionate writing :) We are all learning... Which uni are you at?

I'll also subscribe to the $500 mark. I've made them even cheaper, but minimal carbon was used. A lot of guys get good results using fridge compressors for their vac pumps. If you are impatient waiting for the bag to suck down, grab a vacuum cleaner to speed up the process, before you seal up the bag.

As for the pressing of the weave, it does actually work if you have a loosely woven cloth with larger diameter fibre bundles- the carbon I used in my last board had very open weave (cheap ruski stuff).

The first board I made with that carbon came out with very few pinholes, and the weave was squashed down nicely. The second board, using peel ply and wadding left the large course bundles poking up, requiring a lot more filler.

Its all good fun.

Chris
decrepit
decrepit
WA
12885 posts
WA, 12885 posts
24 Jun 2004 7:28pm
quote:
Originally posted by Chris Lockwood



As for the pressing of the weave, it does actually work if you have a loosely woven cloth with larger diameter fibre bundles- the carbon I used in my last board had very open weave (cheap ruski stuff).

The first board I made with that carbon came out with very few pinholes, and the weave was squashed down nicely. The second board, using peel ply and wadding left the large course bundles poking up, requiring a lot more filler.

Chris



Chris, so far I've only used building plastic for my bag, haven't tried nylon.
The biggest problem I had trying to vacuum the outside skin, was on the rails where top and bottom of the bag met, the bag seemd to drag the cloth as it's sucking in, forming a big wrinkle in the cloth. I thought the answer to this (as well as the wrinkles caused by the bag not conforming to the boards shape) was using wadding, so how did you overcome this problem???

Cheers

decrepit
Chris Lockwood
Chris Lockwood
WA
9 posts
WA, 9 posts
25 Jun 2004 8:43am


Using the wadding is a better idea, combined with decent quality glass/carbon which doesn't have a coarse weave.

I just pulled the plastic flat with a lower vacuum, then cranked it up. Most of the ridges are resin, but its still a PITA to finish. Occasionally the cloth also ridges up, which means patchwork before filling.

If you have coarsely woven cloth, you can also put a layer of 75g satin weave glass on the outside. This tends to seal the holes and works fine with conventional peel ply and wadding. Finishing is a lot easier. It costs more though, and ends up a few hundred g heavier. You can of course recover a lot of this weight because you dont need as much filler to finish the board. It also makes finishing a lot easier (ie less stressful). You dont want to be sanding into the carbon, so the layer of fine glass gives you some warning, meaning you can relax if you get a little carried away.
decrepit
decrepit
WA
12885 posts
WA, 12885 posts
25 Jun 2004 6:56pm
Hardie's rocker
Sorry Hardie couldn't wait for you to get back from Margarets, (how's the surf? was head high here today).
Just had to pick up the plane and attack your rocker template, couldn't help myself honest!
Hope you'll like the result, basically if you sit a straight edge 500 mm from the tail on the rocker line, there's about a 4mm gap at the tail and a 2.5mm gap at the 1 meter point. That's less than half my wave rocker, but still more than normal slalom (I think, we'll check your slalom boards to be sure.)

Any comments from the gallery??? considering this is a 700mm wide board, and isn't meant to be a flat water screamer, but a fun early planning ocean goer.


decrepit
bluejuice
bluejuice
WA
334 posts
WA, 334 posts
26 Jun 2004 5:24pm
I'm feeling brave here risking some flaming.
Decrepit I didn't quite understand your description of the rocker, here's my suggestion use a modern 265 to 280 slalom rocker line, as your not after speed, at a point 900mm from the tail make an even curve to the tail with about 4mm more rocker than the slalom one.Maybe kick the 1st 450mm of the nose up. Have non to minimal vee from the nose until 1000mm from the tail then from this point to the tail gradually increase the vee to about 5 to 6mm each side at about 300mm from the tail. This will keep the centre line rocker fairly flat but will give the rails more rocker so that when the board is railed over it will feel loose , it should handle the ocean water better but you would loose some top end speed. Good luck
P.S. after you have vacuumed on all the div, re check your rocker line as the bag and quality of the foam can change the rocker.

a.k.a. KA202
decrepit
decrepit
WA
12885 posts
WA, 12885 posts
26 Jun 2004 5:55pm
quote:
Originally posted by Chris Lockwood


I just pulled the plastic flat with a lower vacuum, then cranked it up. Most of the ridges are resin, but its still a PITA to finish. Occasionally the cloth also ridges up, which means patchwork before filling.



Thanks Chris, we'll have a practise at seeing how smooth we can get the builders plastic bag, do you think a nylon bag would conform to the boards contours any easier??


decrepit
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