don't get too hung up on the sail if you can't get it working

generally speaking - once one gets a cammed sail, that's the end of the advancement of one's skills, and the beginning of the throwing of good money after bad in the never ending quest for the extra .01 knot per second

the longer u can put it off, the fatter your wallet will be

(climbing into fire suit)

Many cammed sails have a wide luff pocket, which if it's not designed properly can be a royal pain in the butt to waterstart. It fills up with water, and the leverage out at the mast tip is substantial.

I won't name a particular brand here, but Mineral knows how difficult this particular one is to waterstart... It got to the point where I wouldn't take this sail out onto the open ocean, as it would tire me out every time I fell in, just trying to get the thing out of the water.

The good news is that some manufacturers actually use their own products, realise what works, and have designed narrow luff pockets and cams that rotate properly, while keeping the amazing wind range that cams offer:
http://www.ezzy.com/sails/infinity10.php

Most other brands of cammed sail I wouldn't touch with a ten foot pole now. They just aren't worth the effort. A good uncammed sail is almost as fast, and ten times easier to use.

I think I have this sail (monofilm panels, massive dacron luff pocket, 3x old style cams, not loose leech), although I'll be replacing mine soon cos its worn out.

Yes Cam sails are harder to rig, but I found this one's relatively easy because of the large luff pocket - easy sliding the mast in, and old style batten tensioners which I would just pull on as hard as I could to set.

I think just because its old, doesn't mean its not sailable, I'v had some memorable sessions on FLAT water with this sail, but I think if you sail often and have joined the quest for speed then you might tire of this sail pretty quickly.
It can be twitchy/shifty and heavy. I would not use it in too much chop as it fills up with water quickly when waterstarting. The tight leech gives less control than a loose leech sail when in chop or gusts, but I would rate it on flat water 15-20 knots if you're sailing for fun and not too concerned about the wank factor!

I found it best to rig with lots of downhaul - so much the luff is taut like it will break. This way the head would rotate somewhat, the battens would rotate easier and it was probably more willing to float...........

I think unless you are seriously into Slalom,Speed or Racing then the 2 cam or no cams sails are fine and yes they can be almost as fast depending on the conditions.
Ive been presently surprised with the speed when Ive used the Loft 02 freeride no cam sail that Ive demo. But when it comes to Av speed the Full Cam sails will Pull ahead Particularly in gusty conditions or heading upwind.

Yes wide sleeves sails can be difficult to water start especially if you let the buggers sink. Ive seen guys really struggle at times trying to waterstart, the only tip I can give is to let the wind do the work for you. face the tip of the mast towards the wind and gradually let the wind lift the sail out of the water.
I really dont have any probs with wide sleeves but then I rarely fall in either.

With cam rotation perhaps alot of the probs are when we are not using the exact mast that the sails were designed for. I used allot of brands over the years and have always had a little trouble with cam rotation. Ive notice a big improvement since Ive use sails that have been designed for skinnies mast they do seem to rotate better than most Race sails that rig on SDMs.

Im not that familar with the Sailworks syncro but are you able to rig it with the cams of the mast before you put your boom on then pushing the cams on.
Its sounds like you need let off the battern tension to get the mast up the sleeve is that right. It could be the your using a fairly large Dia mast.

ta Vando

sboardcrazy said...

Ive just got a 6.2m Sailworks syncro c 10 years old..Do cammed sails have a more forward COE ? I seem to need my harness lines further forward although I havent really been blasting yet.Also do they need less downhaul ? With heaps of downhaul I feel the bottom cam isnt happy. How easily should they rotate?
Plus I have problems with the bottom cam & have to let the batten off to get the mast in the luff tube / cam & then I cant tighten it as I dont have the strength.
Do cammed sails generally give more problems waterstarting if you dont get started quickly ( boom end sinking etc).

Ahh i hear ya and i feel your pain...
I have a real love hate relationship with my cammed sail, its the first sail i went really fast with, and i mean ####ing myself fast.

Now bear in mind im not that experienced compared to most on here so others may be able to explain the technical stuff better, but i've found that more downhaul makes the bottom cam happier and as for rigging it the manufacturers instructions on mine say to pull your d/haul to around 10 cm from where it should be, then your outhaul to a few cms from where it should be, THEN fit the cam to the mast. and finnish d/haul and outhaul after that. I think for both problems getting enough mast bend is important.

As for harness lines futher forward i found the same, i think because the sail seems to have more forward drive than my others but that probably goes without saying being a bigger sail, and maybe it comes down to leaning the sail further back and maybe footstraps further back but im still experimenting with that.

And regarding luff pocket filling with water and water starting, yup i hate that too.

In all its my least favorite sail because its such a handfull to use in every regard and i rarely use it bay sailing in any chop but geez its a fun sail for flat water blasting

Geez all I've got is cam sails. (Twin cam sails) (plus one 3.7m RAF)

Cam sails defineatly help if you sail somewhere thats gusty with holes/lulls etc because you can get going a little easier, point up wind a bit higher a coast thru the lulls better = more time planing
Plus the COE doen't move anywhere near as much as a RAF sail.

If you sail somwhere where the winds really constant then the benefit of cams over no cams isn't much.

Forget Race or Freerace Cam sails, wide mast sleeves etc they're heavy, expencive plus you really need to match the mast with them = more$$$ been there done that. Unless you compete or speed sail etc forget them!

Rigging depends on the type of cam sail you have, for a "freeride 2 cam sail" down haul 75% with the cams on the mast then put on 100% outhaul before the final down haul. Highly reccomend the Gaastra Swifts they're "light" easy to rig and big wind range.

Water starting is harder if the cams have rotated but on the flip side if they have nt the sail will push the mast above the water making it easier to "fly" the rig out for a water start.

As for the harness lines if you re under powered I think you will need the harness lines a bit forward to feel balanced but other wise for me on my smaller sails the 1/3 boom length works well and in the bigger sizes 6.8m plus 1 -2 inches further forwards seem good.

Main benefit for me is the locked in feel and better gusty/lull wind day performance

thats my 2c

sboardcrazy - any chance you can try a couple of different brand masts in it?

It might be designed for something with more flex lower down the mast than the one you have already tried, which I'm guessing would relieve the tension on the bottom cam?

sboardcrazy said...


The mast is a 2nd hand Sailworks lipstick..? dont know what diameter apparently it is made up of 2 halves of different ones .. the same brand I suppose..It seems to get by although its only a 430cm so i have to use the full 45cm extension.

I had a '99 Sailworks XT 7.9m a while back and other than the batten tension you can also adjust the cam tension. Open the bottom cam zip and see if theres a strap on the cam you can loosen, this may help? See here: pg4 http://www.sailworks.com/web/pdfs/xt99.pdf

Depending on the year of your Syncro the luff is 477cm so really pushing it with a 430 and 45cm extension. As Haircut says try some masts 460cm imcs 25 constant curve or flex top......

Ok........ not ideal, 2cm of down haul makes a big difference on a modern sail plus min/neg outhaul would probably make your Syncro super full/bagged out when rigged.

Is the upper leech loose and twisting off when rigged? I would imagine probably not and on the water it "feels" really powerful but its difficult pointing up wind and in any gusts you're getting pulled up/forward cause the sail can't exhaust etc Does the sail touch the boom when rigged?

If its your light wind sail and its not totally bagged out you may get away with it but your mast and boom sound less than ideal even for tuning a sail in light winds.

Sue, any chance you can chat to Andrew and try something like a 6.5 Retro? A few of us at Marmong have Retro's and they work well for freeride stuff. That might be a better fit for the type of sailing you like to do? 5 cams is a pretty serious (and heavy) race sail, and it might actually send your sailing enjoyment backwards rather than improving it.

The 6.5 retro rigs on a 430 or 460.

good luck!

james

sboardcrazy said...

jamesf said...

Sue, any chance you can chat to Andrew and try something like a 6.5 Retro? A few of us at Marmong have Retro's and they work well for freeride stuff. That might be a better fit for the type of sailing you like to do? 5 cams is a pretty serious (and heavy) race sail, and it might actually send your sailing enjoyment backwards rather than improving it.

The 6.5 retro rigs on a 430 or 460.

good luck!

james

No $ . Any one want a sailboarding painting done ? If you want to start a collection going.. ..I must admit I went out with an old 5.7m wavesail today & SO much more fun! There was more wind though..I was planing a fair bit.I used to have a 7.5m cammed sail back in the 80's but unlike now I was young , fit & bullet proof ..

nick0 said...

i only just bough a new 6m reto form andrew 2 weeks ago and love it .. together with a caveman freeridexs board its super fun blasting in 13knts of breeze .. some one posted bout haveing social windsurfing days at coal point on a sunday once a month ?? still hapening?

Sounds like a great combo I didnt know they still made caveman boards..interesting Ive always had them
Coal Pt social days sound good if I could get there on a weekend.
I was reading an English mag & what they do is someone has a list of all interested peoples email address's.They look at the forecast & when it looks like its a goer they email everyone so they can all go for a race / sail that pm.Maybe something like that would work for a social day.I know most people are probably glued to the forecast anyway but it would be a bit of added incentive if you knew all your " mates ' would be there too.

I have a Ka Koncept 6.6, wich is a easy to use for a cam sail. It has the most narrow luff pocket, I think, out of all the sails on the market. I can water start it real easy, and the cams rotate real smooth. There is only one thing I really hate, and that is the weight My brother has the koyota 6.6, and one day we swapped rigs. I was amazed how much lighter his sail was, and so easy to jibe The wind range also felt the same as my Koncept as well. So I am 50/50 on weather to buy a cam or no cam for my next sail

Thats true babe

nick0 said...

sboardcrazy....
caveman boards were made from andrew regan only i think ...this board is like 20 yrs plus and its still bomb proof .. i got 2 of em lay around under the house

Oh Ok.Yep Ive got a caveman 96 waveboard which is great when it blows strong & consistently enough to use it!