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Feet pressure

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Created by Nubie A week ago, 29 Nov 2018
Nubie
16 posts
29 Nov 2018 12:40AM
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Llink:
www.windsurf.co.uk/peter-hart-masterclass-feeling-the-pressures/

from text:
"
As you bear away, the wind blows from the rear quarter, the pull is more forward so you resist it by dropping the hips back towards the tail, bracing against a straight front leg and softening the back knee. The load initially moves about 60/40 in favour of the BACK FOOT"

What is he talking about, 60% on back foot when going downwind?!???
When you bear away sail pull is more forward,almost 95% is on front foot,you can lift your back foot if you want because it is not load at all...
If you try put load on back foot and lift front foot you will be immediately catapult!

Is it text fault or what?

LeeD
315 posts
29 Nov 2018 12:52AM
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Back foot is correct to counter the pulling force of the sail.
He did not say you weight the back foot to initiate, as a weight transfer is used.

Nubie
16 posts
29 Nov 2018 1:14AM
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LeeD said..
Back foot is correct to counter the pulling force of the sail.
He did not say you weight the back foot to initiate, as a weight transfer is used.




You are wrong,on dowind course front foot counter the pulling force of sail.
Front foot is extended and back is bend.

LeeD
315 posts
29 Nov 2018 1:32AM
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You are correct, against our combined 70+ years of shortboard experience.
Newbies are always right, since they know it all.

LeeD
315 posts
29 Nov 2018 1:40AM
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COE over rear footstrap, but actual weight varies according to trim angle, chop, and pull of the sail...which varies when going downwind.

Nubie
16 posts
29 Nov 2018 2:32AM
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LeeD said..
You are correct, against our combined 70+ years of shortboard experience.
Newbies are always right, since they know it all.



I tell what I feel when I sail and what all others instructors learn.I allways have pressure on my front foot.Switching to back foot presssure can cause spin out so I avoid every time I could.
upwin stance :back foot extended,front foot slightly bend
downwind stance: back foot bend,front foot extended

look at Guy Cribb technique and what I have said wrong?

link:
www.guycribb.com/userfiles/documents/Stance-%20angles.pdf

powersloshin
NSW, 949 posts
29 Nov 2018 6:19AM
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I suggest you just spend more time in the water and you will forget about the theory and all the movements will become instinctive.

Jono77
WA, 314 posts
29 Nov 2018 6:29AM
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Nubie said..


You are wrong


You've said that you can't go downwind so how can you say that someone else's experience of going downwind is wrong??

Cambodge
VIC, 778 posts
29 Nov 2018 9:59AM
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powersloshin said..
I suggest you just spend more time in the water and you will forget about the theory and all the movements will become instinctive.


Yep ^^^ No-one learnt to walk by studying the manual.

LeeD
315 posts
29 Nov 2018 9:05AM
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I think weight back is the simple answer to beginner question, but to explain the entire process of initiation to comfortable downwind trim might take several hundred words...or triple that to someone who learns by the book.
Can you imagine learning to walk without trying it?

Basher
16 posts
29 Nov 2018 9:25AM
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Nubie said..
Llink:
www.windsurf.co.uk/peter-hart-masterclass-feeling-the-pressures/

from text:
"
As you bear away, the wind blows from the rear quarter, the pull is more forward so you resist it by dropping the hips back towards the tail, bracing against a straight front leg and softening the back knee. The load initially moves about 60/40 in favour of the BACK FOOT"

What is he talking about, 60% on back foot when going downwind?!???
When you bear away sail pull is more forward,almost 95% is on front foot,you can lift your back foot if you want because it is not load at all...
If you try put load on back foot and lift front foot you will be immediately catapult!

Is it text fault or what?


You need to read the rest of what is said there - and you haven't even finished the sentence, as he wrote it.

That said, when we change direction we also adapt to a different pull in the sail and I'd say it's very difficult to judge or even guess how much load is on each foot with any accuracy.
What we do know is that when we first sheet in this loads the back hand and that in turn loads the back foot. Most beginners tend to overload the back foot.
Best thing to do when learning is to not think about loads on the foot but to look ahead to where you want to go. If the board nose is in the air then you are standing too far back. If you stand too far forwards then you may catapult, lol.

NotWal
QLD, 6679 posts
29 Nov 2018 3:12PM
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Whenever I take an extended downwinder the quads on my back leg start to tremble and complain from holding a half squat.
That's a pretty good indication that most of my weight is on the back foot. Maybe that's just me but I don't think so.
Going downwind you are going over the back of chop and you have to keep your nose up. If you bury it you crash.

MarkSSC
QLD, 328 posts
29 Nov 2018 10:06PM
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Cambodge said..

powersloshin said..
I suggest you just spend more time in the water and you will forget about the theory and all the movements will become instinctive.



Yep ^^^ No-one learnt to walk by studying the manual.


That is only partly true. A lot of windsurfing technique is counter intuitive, so learning from others by reading articles or watching video is always helpful. Only the very special people can go it alone, learning on the water; the rest of us make mistakes or develop bad habits. The only beef I have with the super coaches is that they get to sail in places where the wind is very consistent. As such, some of their advice does not work as well in places where the wind is more fickle.

sailquik
VIC, 4170 posts
29 Nov 2018 11:58PM
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That is actually a very astute observation from Nubie.

I think all you nay sayers are too quick to critisise with your negative reactions.

But the full answer is quite complex, and varies a lot depending on the type of gear you are sailing.

For instance: Sailing on a modern slalom board with a largish fin is going to be very differenct from sailing on a wave board with a fin and rocker line designed for high manoeuvrability, not nessasarily for maximum speed and lift. A freeride board will be somewhere in between. A formula board or a race board very different again.

Many could do well to actually look and feel what their body is actually doing before believing what their brain is surmising. It is often two very different things.

Think about this for instance. When sailing deep downwind at speed on a slalom board, your back leg may indeed start to burn and tremble. I know mine does. But this is due to the fact you are sitting back with you leg quite bent and holding up your weight. Not due to it driving the board forward so much. The driving forward is done much more through your front leg, which is relitively straight and therefore not under no much muscle strain.

When you are driving upwind on a slalom board, your weight is driving mostly through the back leg rigth over the fin. But your muscles dont tremble and ache because your body is swung forward and your back leg is almost straight. The front leg is more bent but quite unloaded. Check for yourself next time by wiggling your front foot out of the strap and lifting your foot off the board. Should not be that hard to do. Your weight will be divided between the back foot and the mast foot through the boom.

Nubie
16 posts
30 Nov 2018 12:58AM
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Select to expand quote
sailquik said..
That is actually a very astute observation from Nubie.

I think all you nay sayers are too quick to critisise with your negative reactions.

But the full answer is quite complex, and varies a lot depending on the type of gear you are sailing.

For instance: Sailing on a modern slalom board with a largish fin is going to be very differenct from sailing on a wave board with a fin and rocker line designed for high manoeuvrability, not nessasarily for maximum speed and lift. A freeride board will be somewhere in between. A formula board or a race board very different again.

Many could do well to actually look and feel what their body is actually doing before believing what their brain is surmising. It is often two very different things.

Think about this for instance. When sailing deep downwind at speed on a slalom board, your back leg may indeed start to burn and tremble. I know mine does. But this is due to the fact you are sitting back with you leg quite bent and holding up your weight. Not due to it driving the board forward so much. The driving forward is done much more through your front leg, which is relitively straight and therefore not under no much muscle strain.

When you are driving upwind on a slalom board, your weight is driving mostly through the back leg rigth over the fin. But your muscles dont tremble and ache because your body is swung forward and your back leg is almost straight. The front leg is more bent but quite unloaded. Check for yourself next time by wiggling your front foot out of the strap and lifting your foot off the board. Should not be that hard to do. Your weight will be divided between the back foot and the mast foot through the boom.




I agree with your discription.
downwind =back leg bent,front "drive leg" straight
upwind(opposite)= back "drive leg" straight,front leg slightly bent

I call "drive leg " ,leg wich resist to sail pull.

Maybe is probelm with terminology.Maybe P.Hart 60/40 percentage refers to body mass/weight above back/front foot ,but not foot wich resist to sail pull.
If you sail downwind you put your body more backwards to resist sail forward pull,now your weight is above your back bend leg but you feel the pressure from sail on your straight front leg.So maybe he refers to body weight distribution.

Sailquick
You said that you feel burn on your bend back leg because it hold your weight on downwind course even you drive board with your front foot.
Why your back leg hold your weight if you are hook in and your body weight is hang on boom?

If you do rope pulling("sail forward pull") ,your body is lean backward, your weight is above back leg but you resist with front leg so pressure is on front foot.If you want you can lift up your back leg ,because it is not load on it and tension in rope support your weight to not fall down,thus if you "cut" back leg you will not fall down..







tyipical downwind stance(Luderitz 140 degree course)
weight above back bend leg,pressure on front straight leg.


sailquik
VIC, 4170 posts
30 Nov 2018 8:48PM
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Another astute question.

When sailing deep downwind - very deep downwind, when you are normally rigged for reaching, the pressure in the sail gets to be quite a bit less than reaching, and now it can't hold as much of your body weight. Therefore you end up carrying quite a bit of weight on the back leg.

There are three reasons why I didn't suffer from this rear leg burn at Luderitz.
1. I set my straps pretty close together so I can raise my C of Mass for better leaverage, and also straighten my back leg more.
2. No sense going down that canal unless you are fully powered on that super broad run. So yes, most of my body weight, and the extra lead I carried, was actually, in this case, supported off the boom.
3. It is only a short run and there is plenty of adrenaline!




BEACHSTART
NSW, 67 posts
30 Nov 2018 10:13PM
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I 'Ve been using easy uphaul for years to assist lifting big sails without pushing to much on my feet.

gorgesailor
113 posts
30 Nov 2018 10:38PM
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Nubie said..

sailquik said..
That is actually a very astute observation from Nubie.

I think all you nay sayers are too quick to critisise with your negative reactions.

But the full answer is quite complex, and varies a lot depending on the type of gear you are sailing.

For instance: Sailing on a modern slalom board with a largish fin is going to be very differenct from sailing on a wave board with a fin and rocker line designed for high manoeuvrability, not nessasarily for maximum speed and lift. A freeride board will be somewhere in between. A formula board or a race board very different again.

Many could do well to actually look and feel what their body is actually doing before believing what their brain is surmising. It is often two very different things.

Think about this for instance. When sailing deep downwind at speed on a slalom board, your back leg may indeed start to burn and tremble. I know mine does. But this is due to the fact you are sitting back with you leg quite bent and holding up your weight. Not due to it driving the board forward so much. The driving forward is done much more through your front leg, which is relitively straight and therefore not under no much muscle strain.

When you are driving upwind on a slalom board, your weight is driving mostly through the back leg rigth over the fin. But your muscles dont tremble and ache because your body is swung forward and your back leg is almost straight. The front leg is more bent but quite unloaded. Check for yourself next time by wiggling your front foot out of the strap and lifting your foot off the board. Should not be that hard to do. Your weight will be divided between the back foot and the mast foot through the boom.





I agree with your discription.
downwind =back leg bent,front "drive leg" straight
upwind(opposite)= back "drive leg" straight,front leg slightly bent

I call "drive leg " ,leg wich resist to sail pull.

Maybe is probelm with terminology.Maybe P.Hart 60/40 percentage refers to body mass/weight above back/front foot ,but not foot wich resist to sail pull.
If you sail downwind you put your body more backwards to resist sail forward pull,now your weight is above your back bend leg but you feel the pressure from sail on your straight front leg.So maybe he refers to body weight distribution.

Sailquick
You said that you feel burn on your bend back leg because it hold your weight on downwind course even you drive board with your front foot.
Why your back leg hold your weight if you are hook in and your body weight is hang on boom?

If you do rope pulling("sail forward pull") ,your body is lean backward, your weight is above back leg but you resist with front leg so pressure is on front foot.If you want you can lift up your back leg ,because it is not load on it and tension in rope support your weight to not fall down,thus if you "cut" back leg you will not fall down..







tyipical downwind stance(Luderitz 140 degree course)
weight above back bend leg,pressure on front straight leg.



This is all looking very "Wing11" ish... It seems to me you are really just wanting to discuss theory rather than actually change your technique.

Nubie
16 posts
30 Nov 2018 11:49PM
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sailquik said..
Another astute question.

When sailing deep downwind - very deep downwind, when you are normally rigged for reaching, the pressure in the sail gets to be quite a bit less than reaching, and now it can't hold as much of your body weight. Therefore you end up carrying quite a bit of weight on the back leg.

There are three reasons why I didn't suffer from this rear leg burn at Luderitz.
1. I set my straps pretty close together so I can raise my C of Mass for better leaverage, and also straighten my back leg more.
2. No sense going down that canal unless you are fully powered on that super broad run. So yes, most of my body weight, and the extra lead I carried, was actually, in this case, supported off the boom.
3. It is only a short run and there is plenty of adrenaline!





"1. I set my straps pretty close together so I can raise my C of Mass for better leaverage, and also straighten my back leg more."

Smart tunning.

What max speed did you achive in Luderitz,are you professional sailor?

seanhogan
2954 posts
1 Dec 2018 5:33AM
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Hi Nubie

on any forum, a new member usually introcuces himself, it would be nice if you would tell us more about you
where do you sail, what's you experience/gear, where are you from ?
looking forward

Subsonic
WA, 1406 posts
1 Dec 2018 6:18AM
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Select to expand quote
gorgesailor said..

Nubie said..


sailquik said..
That is actually a very astute observation from Nubie.

I think all you nay sayers are too quick to critisise with your negative reactions.

But the full answer is quite complex, and varies a lot depending on the type of gear you are sailing.

For instance: Sailing on a modern slalom board with a largish fin is going to be very differenct from sailing on a wave board with a fin and rocker line designed for high manoeuvrability, not nessasarily for maximum speed and lift. A freeride board will be somewhere in between. A formula board or a race board very different again.

Many could do well to actually look and feel what their body is actually doing before believing what their brain is surmising. It is often two very different things.

Think about this for instance. When sailing deep downwind at speed on a slalom board, your back leg may indeed start to burn and tremble. I know mine does. But this is due to the fact you are sitting back with you leg quite bent and holding up your weight. Not due to it driving the board forward so much. The driving forward is done much more through your front leg, which is relitively straight and therefore not under no much muscle strain.

When you are driving upwind on a slalom board, your weight is driving mostly through the back leg rigth over the fin. But your muscles dont tremble and ache because your body is swung forward and your back leg is almost straight. The front leg is more bent but quite unloaded. Check for yourself next time by wiggling your front foot out of the strap and lifting your foot off the board. Should not be that hard to do. Your weight will be divided between the back foot and the mast foot through the boom.






I agree with your discription.
downwind =back leg bent,front "drive leg" straight
upwind(opposite)= back "drive leg" straight,front leg slightly bent

I call "drive leg " ,leg wich resist to sail pull.

Maybe is probelm with terminology.Maybe P.Hart 60/40 percentage refers to body mass/weight above back/front foot ,but not foot wich resist to sail pull.
If you sail downwind you put your body more backwards to resist sail forward pull,now your weight is above your back bend leg but you feel the pressure from sail on your straight front leg.So maybe he refers to body weight distribution.

Sailquick
You said that you feel burn on your bend back leg because it hold your weight on downwind course even you drive board with your front foot.
Why your back leg hold your weight if you are hook in and your body weight is hang on boom?

If you do rope pulling("sail forward pull") ,your body is lean backward, your weight is above back leg but you resist with front leg so pressure is on front foot.If you want you can lift up your back leg ,because it is not load on it and tension in rope support your weight to not fall down,thus if you "cut" back leg you will not fall down..







tyipical downwind stance(Luderitz 140 degree course)
weight above back bend leg,pressure on front straight leg.




This is all looking very "Wing11" ish... It seems to me you are really just wanting to discuss theory rather than actually change your technique.


It is very wing11ish. Here for a discussion, not for advice. Which is fine, thats how some people are. They have to know why something happens, not just how to do it.

But its extremely frustrating, i agree. I think theres a bit of a language barrier there as well, which makes it doubly frustrating trying to explain things.

Ian K
NSW, 2730 posts
1 Dec 2018 9:24AM
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seanhogan said..
Hi Nubie

on any forum, a new member usually introcuces himself, it would be nice if you would tell us more about you
where do you sail, what's you experience/gear, where are you from ?
looking forward


No we don't. This is the internet. He's making good observations. Doesn't matter if he's only ever windsurfed on Xbox.

choco
SA, 3363 posts
1 Dec 2018 4:36PM
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Impressed with all the insight! I just sail

decrepit
WA, 8820 posts
1 Dec 2018 5:13PM
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I have a feeling that water state affects back to front weight distribution.
If you're tuned for flat water and end up in chop, you'll want to get as much weight forward as possible, to flatten the board out.
On the other hand if you're tuned for chop, you'll want to get weight back when on the flat stuff. to reduce wetted area.

sailquik
VIC, 4170 posts
2 Dec 2018 12:37AM
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Nubie said..
"1. I set my straps pretty close together so I can raise my C of Mass for better leaverage, and also straighten my back leg more."

Smart tunning.

What max speed did you achive in Luderitz,are you professional sailor?



Nope. Just a little old man who trys to go fast.

47 Knots is my best peak. Still dreaming of the big 50.

sailquik
VIC, 4170 posts
2 Dec 2018 12:49AM
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decrepit said..
I have a feeling that water state affects back to front weight distribution.
If you're tuned for flat water and end up in chop, you'll want to get as much weight forward as possible, to flatten the board out.
On the other hand if you're tuned for chop, you'll want to get weight back when on the flat stuff. to reduce wetted area.







This is certainly true to some extent, but there is a natural balance with any board and gear set up that pretty much dertermines where the centre of pressure will be.

When in rougher water, the board is slowed down and therefore sits slightly deeper in the water. Chop is hitting to board further forward as well, both of which move the centre of effort further forward, and therefore the sailors centre of pressure on the board further forward. This is kind of a good think of course.

On really flat water the board will go faster because of lower resistance and the centre of resistance on the board will move further back. The centre of pressure from the sailor must move back also to stay in balance. There is a small amount of tuning of fins size, fin rake and rigging etc. that can be used to tune this, but it is fairly limited by the basic shape of the board in use.

As another example, a wave board in roughish water, with more rocker, will tend to go slower in most conditions and allow the sailors weight to be further forward, usually making it easier to keep in control across waves and chop. (also usually a good thing ) But get it on very flat water and go broad/fast enough to rock your weight right back over the tail so only <30cm of the back of the board is in the water, and it may go quite fast. (40+ kts )

Nubie
16 posts
1 Dec 2018 11:14PM
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sailquik said..











decrepit said..
I have a feeling that water state affects back to front weight distribution.
If you're tuned for flat water and end up in chop, you'll want to get as much weight forward as possible, to flatten the board out.
On the other hand if you're tuned for chop, you'll want to get weight back when on the flat stuff. to reduce wetted area.


















This is certainly true to some extent, but there is a natural balance with any board and gear set up that pretty much dertermines where the centre of pressure will be.

When in rougher water, the board is slowed down and therefore sits slightly deeper in the water. Chop is hitting to board further forward as well, both of which move the centre of effort further forward, and therefore the sailors centre of pressure on the board further forward. This is kind of a good think of course.

On really flat water the board will go faster because of lower resistance and the centre of resistance on the board will move further back. The centre of pressure from the sailor must move back also to stay in balance. There is a small amount of tuning of fins size, fin rake and rigging etc. that can be used to tune this, but it is fairly limited by the basic shape of the board in use.

As another example, a wave board in roughish water, with more rocker, will tend to go slower in most conditions and allow the sailors weight to be further forward, usually making it easier to keep in control across waves and chop. (also usually a good thing ) But get it on very flat water and go broad/fast enough to rock your weight right back over the tail so only )












47 knots,nice speed!

In Luderitz on full speed what is your prediction where CLR is, on fin,on back strap,between straps or maybe on front strap?

Sensitivity of boards directional stability
How are windsurfing boards sensitive to CLR/COE mismacthing,for exapmle if COE is only 5cm infront CLR ,will board turn downwind or every board has some tendendcy which allow CLR/COE mismatching?

(I see on foil,that desinger introduce small vertical fin on rear wing or rear wing have winglets ,that gives board more directional stability,thus board is less sensitive to CLR/COE mismatching..)


"Flying the fin"
I know that fin gives board directional stability ,like feather on arrow,windex etc but what happend if only fin is in water...
Is ever situation when board planning only on fin or this is myth? If that is case ,how then board respond on directional stability,because fin itself dont have "devices" which improve directional stabilty like foil have..?



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"Feet pressure" started by Nubie