GPS

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X-man
X-man
WA
325 posts
WA, 325 posts
13 Sep 2006 4:45pm
Where is it possible to buy one that gives you your top and average speed for each run you make? How expensive are they?
I have the project to make 1 or 2 speed boards as my final year project at uni and gather as much data as possible. Wouldnt mind having other poeple testing them and compare to production boards as well if anyone is interested, it will only be next year tho...
decrepit
decrepit
WA
12885 posts
WA, 12885 posts
13 Sep 2006 6:32pm
If you bring them down to Mandurah, I'm sure we can round up a few test pilots. Hardie & Elmo spring to mind, might even have a go myself if there aren't any waves.
elmo
elmo
WA
8894 posts
WA, 8894 posts
13 Sep 2006 7:05pm
Mr X,

The GPS's you want are the Data logging style.

If you want to venture down this way on fine sunny (windy) day, can give you a run down on operation and software.

Give us a yell through site email if you want to chat over phone.

I would also recommend having a chat with Chris Lockwood, he has done a fair bit of work with boards and a lot of work with fins.

Regards

Alby
NotWal
NotWal
QLD
7436 posts
QLD, 7436 posts
13 Sep 2006 11:16pm
I guess this is for comparative testing. Top and average speed aren't going to mean a lot if you dont have instantaneous wind speed and bearing too. I would think it may be more useful to drag a hull behind a boat on a still day at a known speed and measure the hull drag with a spring balance or something.

just a thought.
decrepit
decrepit
WA
12885 posts
WA, 12885 posts
13 Sep 2006 9:23pm
Got a feeling that there's more to making a windsurfer go fast than just hull drag. There's also how efficiently the hull converts sail power into forward speed.
X-man
X-man
WA
325 posts
WA, 325 posts
14 Sep 2006 7:20am
Yeh thought about that but the idea is also to have some fun with the thing!! It will be next year so i'll have time to set up the procedure, thanks for the ideas and info guys, feel free to send some more!
Cheers
grumplestiltskin
grumplestiltskin
WA
2331 posts
WA, 2331 posts
14 Sep 2006 8:13am
quote:
Got a feeling that there's more to making a windsurfer go fast than just hull drag.


Pretty sure rider ability has an enormous amount to do with it.

I am willing to prove that by being the crap rider that will give you a starting baseline
TimB
TimB
WA
260 posts
WA, 260 posts
14 Sep 2006 8:45am
X-Man good luck with your project. Nothing better than being able to windsurf while pretenting to complete your thesis, especially if the Uni will pay for a couple of boards to test.

On a technical note, measuring resistance of hulls is extremely difficult if you want accurate results. The only real way to measure resistance is to run model trials in a towing tank so that the environment can be controlled. Full scale trails do work but it is hard to control all the variables. Then again sailing for days on end to get consistant data sounds like a great idea.
yoyo
yoyo
WA
1646 posts
WA, 1646 posts
16 Sep 2006 10:17am
In regard to your original question...

Most speedsurfers have been using for the last 2 years the Garmin Foretrex (101 & 201 - functionally they are the same.. cost~$300)and comparing data post-session using gpsactionreplay software (downloaded from www.gpsactionreplay.com)and comparing results on the site www.gps-speedsurfing.com .

However it has been found that the Foretrex units (along with the Garmin Geko) are not the best tool for the job as the units truncate the satellite info resulting in speed error +- a couple of knots at worse case. The gps-speedsurfing site gets around this somewhat by using averaged results over 10 sec which deminishes the error.

Recently Garmin have released some gps units which don't truncate this info. These units have 10x the relative positional acurracy of the Foretrex. 2 of these units are the Garmin Edge 205 and Garmin Legend C. They are more expensive than the Foretrex and lack it's windsurfing features.

Even more recently another even better option has appeared. A gps that is not only more accurate but has far more memory, more detail of info and is much cheaper and appears designed for our needs. The NAViGPS.

I believe ChrisL has ordered one (I think ~$200 with 2GB SD card and Aqua-pac)from Roo ([email protected]) or you can get them from the UK (without Aqua-pac or SD card for about 55 Pounds (plus 12 pounds for posting)at http://www.storagedepot.co.uk/Products.aspx?action=showproduct&id=176&type=87

You can also read all about this at
www.gps-speedsurfing.com/gps.asp?mnu=forum&smnu=1&val=2562

Now , how the hell did you get the Uni to wear this as a reseach project??
X-man
X-man
WA
325 posts
WA, 325 posts
16 Sep 2006 10:45am
lol! thanks for all the links yoyo! Well the project hasnt actually been approved yet, still have to talk to the lecturers ... But its in the field of mechanical engineering so its related to materials, fluid mechanics... Some of the proposed projects we have seem like its just reaserch without actually doing much, hard to explain but yeh i dont see why they would refuse. I've made boards before so it wont take as much time as if i was a begginer, then anyway if its not for uni i'd like to do it for myself sometime!.
Cheers
Haggar
Haggar
QLD
1670 posts
QLD, 1670 posts
26 Sep 2006 9:11pm
quote:
Originally posted by yoyo


I believe ChrisL has ordered one (I think ~$200 with 2GB SD card and Aqua-pac)from Roo ([email protected]) or you can get them from the UK (without Aqua-pac or SD card for about 55 Pounds (plus 12 pounds for posting)at http://www.storagedepot.co.uk/Products.aspx?action=showproduct&id=176&type=87

You can also read all about this at
www.gps-speedsurfing.com/gps.asp?mnu=forum&smnu=1&val=2562

Now , how the hell did you get the Uni to wear this as a reseach project??


So YoYo do you reckon if I wanted a GPS to use this season, is it worth waiting for feedback on the Navigps, I should I go and get a Foretrex 101
yoyo
yoyo
WA
1646 posts
WA, 1646 posts
27 Sep 2006 11:18am
Depends what you want.

The Foretrex is a proven unit. It is recognised by the GPS-Speedsurfing site for their rankings and it has the ability to be used as a start watch (tho' I don't know anyone who bothers to use this function). It's weaknesses are well known. No-one around here uses one without an Aqua-pac (if the water doesn't kill it, the Garmin supplied strap will loose it in a stack) and the 2 second speed (software) is taken with a gain of salt but because of averaging the 5x10 sec ranking and the 100m, 250m, and 500m are so close to reality it's not worth argueing about unless you're the WSSRC. 101 Foretrexs can be bought cheap from the US. The 201 can't 'cause the US charger (110V) etc.
The NaviGPS has it's own drawbacks. For some reason it shows only whole knots on the "max speed" but shows "speed" to 2 decimal places?? Why not 1/10 of a knot for both, who knows. I'm sure a software upgrade will fix that. It is a tight fit in the Aqua-pac (at least the one supplied by Roo). Needs a card reader to get the info out of the SD card but that is less cost than a Garmin cable for the Foretrex 101. One neat feature it has is a Navigation/sport setting. If you put it on "sport" it only records fixes if it has at least 4 sats. So theoretically there should never be any spikes.
Chris has been using both together but hasn't yet compared the data. I think he is leaning towards the Navigps as he sails at the top level (he got a 49.9kn 1 sec (software)on the Foretrex at Sandy but what was his real peak?)and the extra data storage (he sailed 150ks in a day last week!) but I'm sure he will let the forum know his views on the Navigps after he has had a good test of it.

Yo
Roo
Roo
882 posts
Roo Roo
882 posts
27 Sep 2006 12:53pm
The screen readout of max speed is a filtered number that relies on a sustained fix with certain parameters for the speed to record. Like the Garmin and most other GPS units it is a very unrealiable figure, just more of a guideline. I was testing the unit some more today and watched as the speed read 64.34 mph for a few seconds yet the max speed still read 63 mph. The accurate data is the nmea recording on the sd card. Most laptops and pds have sd slots, only computers from the dark ages dont! I tend not to run the unit in sport mode as it deletes too much data in marginal conditions. Better to use RealSpeed to filter the data based on a minimum of 5 sats locked onto and a maximum hdop of 4. I've been comparing the data for over 6 months and the numbers are very close, however the nmea data is in 1 second intervals, is much smoother and has far fewer spikes. The data also gives you a lot more information to work with to validate the results. For a fun time with basic information the Foretrex is fine. If you're serious about analysing your performance the nmea data is the only way to go. Re the aquapac, they dont make one that fits the unit, the larger one is too big, the small one a bit tight. Leave it in the sun for a few minutes before sailing and it fits better.
Haggar
Haggar
QLD
1670 posts
QLD, 1670 posts
27 Sep 2006 5:26pm
Thanks yoyo, where would this cheap place in states be
yoyo
yoyo
WA
1646 posts
WA, 1646 posts
27 Sep 2006 7:22pm
Got mine off eBay for A$167 a couple of years ago from "lawfive".
He wasn't the cheapest (but almost) but most importantly DIDN'T use FedEx or UPS but just USMail. This is most important. If you use mail (ie it goes thru' Australia Post) you can bring in ~$900 of post/parcel customs duty free. He charged US$22 to post. Go the FedEx or UPS way and not only will the guys charge about 3 times the rate but when it gets here they want another $50 custom clearance fee PLUS the duty!! ie forget it. He had sold about 5000 items for a 99.9% approval rating. Tried to find him again on ebay but couldn't .. maybe he has changed his nick ..

A good Aussie source is http://www.gpsoz.com.au/garmin_foretrex.htm
A$239 for 101 , A$305 for 201 delivered to your door. The 201 is probably the better value at these prices.

Used to be able to get the 201 in Perth for ~$280 from GPS Shed but they put their price up to the same as SecondWind which I think is also just over 300.
Haggar
Haggar
QLD
1670 posts
QLD, 1670 posts
1 Oct 2006 10:55pm
Thanks YoYo. Bought a Foretrex 101 on the weekend from Johny Appleseed

www.ja-gps.com.au/Garmin/foretrex-301-wrist-gps/

Whilst a tad more expensive, preferred to buy from a shop where I can get some local support and they were very helpful. Also got the data cable and Small Aquapack.

Seems like a great unit so far, can't wait to get on the water
TelecomGreg
TelecomGreg
QLD
94 posts
QLD, 94 posts
2 Oct 2006 1:22pm
Anybody had look at the "Velocitek GPS" on kasails.com.au looks good but a bit $exy$

TelecomGreg
yoyo
yoyo
WA
1646 posts
WA, 1646 posts
2 Oct 2006 11:56am
The original version lacked features, but it is a small operation and I guess they realized this and I beleive now have an updated arrangement which the Sandy Point guys (Ian Fox)are testing at the moment. Not sure if this "new" version is available yet. If you write a post on the Star-board "ask team" forum he might tell you more.
Don't forget the Navigps. I think it is probably the best option currently.
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