Forums > Windsurfing General

Have trouble with my setup.

Reply
Created by EddieWeeks Wednesday, 14 Aug 2019
EddieWeeks
6 posts
Wednesday , 14 Aug 2019 11:36AM
Thumbs Up

So the first pic is me in 1985 Louisiana.
I sailed for 15 years then had kids ect and have not sailed in 20 years.
I bought some equipment Shark 150, sails ect... but Its just not working for me.
Its like the foot straps are too far back and the board will not plane.... I don't know..
I went from 170 lbs (78kg) to 240 lbs (110kg)... so that's a problem..

The only sail I feel balanced is an 8.0...
The 5.5 and 6.5 seem to pull hard but nothing happens... Am I really that heavy ?

I use a 52cm fin... I have tried a 35cm with the 5.5 and I can't get it to work.
Its like there is too much weight too far back on the board.






Mr Keen
QLD, 77 posts
Wednesday , 14 Aug 2019 2:11PM
Thumbs Up

Shorten your mast extension, need some mast foot pressure...

Paducah
420 posts
Wednesday , 14 Aug 2019 12:11PM
Thumbs Up

You are sailing the equivalent of a 100-105 liter board (if my math isn't too off) from your old days. You are going to need a fair amount of speed and power to get and keep going. The picture of you at the bottom subplaning is indicative of someone on a "semi-floater" even if we didn't know the relative numbers.

Short term solutions - consider moving the straps and mast base up to help flatten the board. If you are barely planing, don't put the back foot in the straps but more in the middle of the board between the straps so you don't sink the tail. That's also what is prompting the "unbalanced" feeling on that board as it probably is oriented, due to it's volume and width, towards bigger sails. Smaller sails will want to have the mast base further back (to balance over the fin) but in your case that just makes the tail sink worse.

Judging from the water state in those pics, you'll need a fairly big sail. Modern sails are a bit biased to being bigger but more stable. They use size to get going but are more stable than older gear so as the wind picks up, you aren't having to rig down as quickly. As someone closer to your younger weight, I would easily use at least a 7 in those conditions if I'm judging correctly. Your Ezzys have a ton of range. You could easily sail the 8.0 in 25 without a problem once things get wired.

Longer term solution in lighter winds - a bit more volume proportionate to the size of someone as mature and wise as you. I'm lighter so I'm not a good one on board specifics of what would be suitable. However, I have done the "took time off as the family was growing" thing and I get it. We're all glad that you took care of the important stuff and that you now have time to play. You definitely rocked as a younger guy and you'll be doing it again soon enough! I'm sure your family is excited that you are back on the water.

Good luck!

MHSA
SA, 3 posts
Wednesday , 14 Aug 2019 1:45PM
Thumbs Up

It looks like you've got skills. I cant help with that. What I can do is regurgitate some of the setup advice the experts have published.

on the gear:
It probably feels good on the 8.0 because it really nicely matches the 150L board and the big fin. The big sail pushes the nose down and the big fin lifts the whole lot so it should be a nice setup. So use this combo as often as suitable?
What are the recommended sail sizes for the board. 6.5-9.0 ?

A 35cm fin will probably always feel too small for that board due to such a wide tail, no matter what size sail you use.

To get the ezzy above looking like the good guys setup:
- boom up. (if youre a big guy then probably in the top half of the cutout). boom up puts more weight forward on the mast base and less on your legs.
- Harness lines back and little bit closer together to make them longer. Harness lines back and longer gets the sail sheeted in more and pushes the rig more upright. both help the board stay flat.

EddieWeeks
6 posts
Wednesday , 14 Aug 2019 12:38PM
Thumbs Up

my new board in the pics above is a 2011 Fanatic shark 150 L..

I feel I need a bigger board but the next size up has a center board and I am not going there.

Mr Keen: Yes.. My sail was too high.. good eye.

ok... so the sails have more range... I did not know what... I will crank the down haul and use a larger sail next time.

A few weeks before this, I was on the 5.5 in > 28 knots... in the surf... I could not sail at all.. I mean I went out and
back a few times, but got catapulted may times... it was a disaster. I just assumed I was not good enough.

But in the pics above, hurricane Barry, I went out of my way to sail flat water, offshore wind... Only plained %5

The board says on the side of it. for 6.5 to 9.0 sails... How can a board not work with a small sail ?

Thanks

olskool
QLD, 1442 posts
Wednesday , 14 Aug 2019 2:42PM
Thumbs Up

Eddie, im 110kg 6'2" n use Ezzys. Mostly i sail a 150 litre AHD 2000 model 77cm wide. Fin is 51cm. My most used sail is 9.5m Lion 12-18kts. Then 8.5m Lion. This kit does me to about 25kt. Covers my local conditions nicely.
As others have said lift the boom to between chin n shoulder height. Drop the extension length so foot of sail is closer to deck. When planing freely put front foot in strap first. Rear foot should be in front of rear straps towards centreline of board until well powered. Then slip it into rear strap. Try to set harness lines closer together at balance point of sail. Commit your weight to harness lines as soon as possible. To keep mastfoot pressure n board flat. I use 32-34inch length lines. Im no guru but I find this a comfy setup for my size.
Too small a sail will not push down enough to keep the board flat. Nor will it generate enough force to start planing. Fin size should also be matched to sail size to achieve correct balance of gear.
8.5m n 150 board n 51cm fin. 18- 25kts.

EddieWeeks
6 posts
Wednesday , 14 Aug 2019 12:47PM
Thumbs Up

Select to expand quote
MHSA said..
on the gear:
It probably feels good on the 8.0 because it really nicely matches the 150L board and the big fin. The big sail pushes the nose down and the big fin lifts the whole lot so it should be a nice setup. So use this combo as often as suitable?
What are the recommended sail sizes for the board. 6.5-9.0 ?


Yes... Exactly... I agree %100

What do I do in 25 knots with a 6.5 or a 5.5... that's what I have..

BTW... I have built a few board in the 90's so adding another mast track or moving foot straps is not a problem.

Eddie


EddieWeeks
6 posts
Wednesday , 14 Aug 2019 12:52PM
Thumbs Up

Select to expand quote
olskool said..
Eddie, im 110kg 6'2" n use Ezzys. Mostly i sail a 150 litre AHD 2000 model 77cm wide. Fin is 51cm. My most used sail is 9.5m Lion 12-18kts. Then 8.5m Lion. This kit does me to about 25kt. Covers my local conditions nicely.



oh man.... everything you guys are saying is making perfect sense... My last ride, my back foot was ahead of the back strap
and it worked on the 8.0.

Just looked up your board.... Very nice..

Eddie

EddieWeeks
6 posts
Wednesday , 14 Aug 2019 1:07PM
Thumbs Up

Equipment has really changed... Back in the 90's the harder the wind blew the better things worked...
7.0 and 6.0 sails did not work because the biggest fin was 12"... I love this new 52cm fin...

I need to be able to use my 5.5 and 6.5... Is my 150 shark the wrong board for 28 knots and a 5.5 ?

Thanks

Eddie

philn
251 posts
Wednesday , 14 Aug 2019 1:08PM
Thumbs Up

The rigging guide videos on the ezzy website are well worth watching.

BSN101
WA, 1660 posts
Wednesday , 14 Aug 2019 1:15PM
Thumbs Up

Eddie, looks like you've set the mast foot all the way back, a little more in the centre could assist with keeping nose down.
Correct length of extension is important (printed on the sail).
Higher boom assists in light wind.
Small fin won't be much use on that board so stay on the big fin until you have progressed a bit. Big sail too.
Try all the straps at their most central and forward positions. Move out & back as you improve. New inserts & mast track is not required.
Persevere , you will get it.

Get the family on it too with a small sail. If one or more get hooked with you it will all be great. Share the stoke!
Hang out at the local ws spot, make new friends (with experience) and look into GPS sailing to see your progress.
Good luck.

MHSA
SA, 3 posts
Wednesday , 14 Aug 2019 2:50PM
Thumbs Up

Select to expand quote
EddieWeeks said..

MHSA said..
on the gear:
It probably feels good on the 8.0 because it really nicely matches the 150L board and the big fin. The big sail pushes the nose down and the big fin lifts the whole lot so it should be a nice setup. So use this combo as often as suitable?
What are the recommended sail sizes for the board. 6.5-9.0 ?



Yes... Exactly... I agree %100

What do I do in 25 knots with a 6.5 or a 5.5... that's what I have..

BTW... I have built a few board in the 90's so adding another mast track or moving foot straps is not a problem.

Eddie






Once you've had a few days in 20 knots flat water with the 8.0, realised how much power you can handle with modern sails and got everything dialled & are planing all the time, the 6.5 in 25 knots will probably start feeling good.

You can also set this one up the extract same way Oldskool described. Nice floppy leech, long lines, boom up, keep all your weight down and out on the harness lines. you'll be flying, no worries.

If at this point its getting windy and the ride with the 6.5 is too wild, you could try a smaller fin before you mess with boards and it gets expensive. Something around 44 cm.

olskool
QLD, 1442 posts
Wednesday , 14 Aug 2019 4:41PM
Thumbs Up

Bsn101 +1 , nicely spotted. Put mastrack in centre of track, maybe 1-2cm aft of centre will help flatten board n promote planing. New boards also need a lot more frontfoot pressure just behind mastrack to promote planing n make bearing off easier. Push with the ball of your foot to keep board flat. Finwise ive used upto 57cm when i was learning. The extra grunt n pointing ability makes for easy planing n no walk of shame.
Now my 51cm S1 Pro is my goto fin. Awesome fin for big guys.

BSN101
WA, 1660 posts
Wednesday , 14 Aug 2019 3:16PM
Thumbs Up

Select to expand quote
olskool said..
Bsn101 +1 , nicely spotted. Put mastrack in centre of track, maybe 1-2cm aft of centre will help flatten board n promote planing. New boards also need a lot more frontfoot pressure just behind mastrack to promote planing n make bearing off easier. Push with the ball of your foot to keep board flat. Finwise ive used upto 57cm when i was learning. The extra grunt n pointing ability makes for easy planing n no walk of shame.
Now my 51cm S1 Pro is my goto fin. Awesome fin for big guys.


I have a custom Tribal SL52 as my go to on my big board. 7-8.2 sails or 46 with 7.0 if really honking.

++ bearing off to get on the plane and come back up once comfy with the big fin. Try to lift the windward rail, ride the fin to make the ground back. Boom

decrepit
WA, 9275 posts
Wednesday , 14 Aug 2019 4:47PM
Thumbs Up

My 100kg+ mate uses a 6.6 in 25kts and over. The secret with modern sails is plenty of downhaul and a very floppy leach. And as far as I'm concerned 18kts to 30kts is the best wind to have fun on flat water. I don't think you'll get a lot of use out of the 5.5. I'm only 75Kg, and don't use my 5.4 unless it's around 25kts.

And weight isn't a problem for windsurfing, as long as you're set up for it.
Weight = FAST!

Imax1
VIC, 2104 posts
Wednesday , 14 Aug 2019 9:42PM
Thumbs Up

Select to expand quote


BTW... I have built a few board in the 90's so adding another mast track or moving foot straps is not a problem.

Eddie




I'm heavier than you and I move my straps plugs.
The mast track is in the correct position .
Move the front ones forward about 80 mm and inwards 50 mm. Have one central rear strap between the others .
This will make it soooo much more user friendly. The wider stance will also help.
When your used to it on flat water you will probably move them back . In rough water the new position will work great .
New boards are so different to what you remember . When going you push sideways on the fin not hanging off the back like in the old days. Keep the board flat not carving .
. ps : use epoxy resin not polyester or you'll melt the foam.

forceten
752 posts
Wednesday , 14 Aug 2019 10:09PM
Thumbs Up

Without seeing a good photo of the sail, I can't offer a opinion on its rigging. Others have mentioned more downhaul.
i don't suspect that the mast track needs moving , the foot straps holes should offer enough.
150 liter for a 5.5 is unreasonably small , it's like snow tires on a Ferrari.
the smaller fin you have should help with the 5.5, but it doesn't in your original post.
What doesn't work, ? It's possible the hull just doesn't like that small sail/fin.

your photos show to me marginal wind, the water the pretty flat.
try adjustment on the sail, perhaps raise the boom a cm or 2.
you may need some more adjustment time. The Ezzy Cheetah is a great choice.
are you still in a Louisiana ?


boardsurfr
WA, 843 posts
Wednesday , 14 Aug 2019 10:59PM
Thumbs Up

Select to expand quote
EddieWeeks said..
I went from 170 lbs (78kg) to 240 lbs (110kg)... so that's a problem..



This means that while you needed a 5.7 m sail in 20 mph wind back then, you need an 8.0 now. You'll also need the larger board and larger fin (which you have). In 25 mph, you need a 6.6 (according to James' calculator at jimbodouglass.blogspot.com/2010/11/updated-windsurf-calculator-online.html which is a very good starting point). Back in your lighter days, a 6.6 got you going in relatively light wind - 17 mph. The actual difference is probably be even larger, since today's sail have lot more loose leech, which means you'll need a bigger sail for the same grunt. Your 5.5 should be fine on days when the wind is above 30 mph .. but you may want a different board then.

It's pretty normal to underestimate the effect of weight changes on sail sizes needed. I'm always amused when a stranger asks about which sail I'm using without also asking about my weight; most guys who guess my weight are off by 10% or more, that's a full sail size. My weight varies from 185 lb to 200 lb, which makes a full sail size difference (0.5 square meters around 5-6 m, more for larger sails).

Big guys need big sails.

LeeD
561 posts
Thursday , 14 Aug 2019 11:31PM
Thumbs Up

I HAVE, and occasionally ride, the 150 Shark, unlike other posters who replied.
1. It has the thinnest tail and rails of any board it's size.
2. It's wide point is well forwards, so the tail sinks.

3. It's heavy for a modern big board, at 23 lbs. with footstraps.
4. It has slight tail rocker, unlike ANY other 150 liter WS board.
So, move footstraps INboard and mid.
Move mastbase FORWARD of center.
Use the 50 fin even in 25 mph wind, even 30. The supplied fin is flexy and small for 50cm.
The 150 Shark is shaped like a modern Freestyle Wave board for a heavy rider.

Basher
80 posts
Thursday , 15 Aug 2019 12:39AM
Thumbs Up

I'm tempted to reply to this, simply to offer a different view from that already given.

When we can't get going on a board there are several reasons. The first is skill, in that you need to drive any board to get it unstuck, and that's about pumping technique. Without good technique you are a passenger, not the driver. This is not just about pumping the sail either: try and pump the hull downwards against its buoyancy, to get it unstuck.

But it may not be your fault. Rule number two is to have a board under your feet which floats your weight well, but if you are heavy then this gets way more difficult. A 150 litre board will be very wide and probably heavy, and they tend to stick to the water, needing a lot of wind to get planing. These bigger boards are often geared up for beginners and learners, meaning they have soft rails - which again make a board slow to plane.
The bigger, longer fin also adds to the 'wetted area', making it hard to get going.

Thirdly, there's some advice here about getting the board level, and the way to do that is to set the front straps further forwards, but, crucially, you also have to lean forwards too - hanging off the boom to load the mast downwards.
Someone suggested shifting the mast foot forwards but that's usually a big mistake if you want to plane early. You actually get more lift off the fin if you keep the mast foot back. Having the mast foot back also allows you to lean forwards more, simply because the mast is less raked back. Shifting the mast foot forwards simply rakes the mast back and drops the boom lower, making the sailor add more weight to the board tail.

Fourthly, you do need a big enough sail - to give you the power to get going. But, for earlier planing, try and maximise the power you get from your chosen sail size, by easing the downhaul a bit to tighten the leech, and you also slacken the outhaul a bit to match that lesser downhaul setting. A tighter leech sail, set with positive outhaul pumps better and reduces more drive at low speeds. .


If your problems persist, I'd suggest getting someone else to look at how you sail. You might also borrow another board to see if that's were the problems lies.

LeeD
561 posts
Thursday , 15 Aug 2019 4:02AM
Thumbs Up

I've counted among my sailing buds, one 275 lb'er, one 265 lb'er, one 245lb'er, and 3 235lb'ers.
Less downhaul, footsraps and mast base forwards, high booms, grab foot of mast and sail to lightwind waterstart.
And g/f for 8 years taught windsurfing at Poncetrain for 5 years.

Madge
NSW, 164 posts
Thursday , 15 Aug 2019 7:08AM
Thumbs Up

Judging by the stance whilst sailing I would strongly suggest longer lines and a seat harness.
Your natural stance is to sit, looking at the photo's.

Its a free ride board and you need to push through the big fin, keep the rig upright and use your lower centre of gravity, against the rig.

Have opened a can of worms here but suggesting the dreaded seat harness but your waist harness is sitting nearer your chest in the pix.

Just keep trying stuff, you'll get there.

Zachery
586 posts
Thursday , 15 Aug 2019 5:25AM
Thumbs Up

And on the days you are getting catapulted put more downhaul on!!

LeeD
561 posts
Thursday , 15 Aug 2019 7:16AM
Thumbs Up

Guys 250 need not worry about catapults at speed. Can hardly happen, unless pushing 44+ mph with a 6.3 sail.
But, INattention while slogging and trying to plane is rider ERROR, not lack of downhaul or too big sail.

forceten
752 posts
Thursday , 15 Aug 2019 7:53AM
Thumbs Up

I'm tempted to reply to this, but thought about it instead.

Basher
80 posts
Thursday , 15 Aug 2019 8:15AM
Thumbs Up

Select to expand quote
forceten said..
I'm tempted to reply to this, but thought about it instead.


Weird that you already did then.

EddieWeeks
6 posts
Thursday , 15 Aug 2019 8:19AM
Thumbs Up

I think I have identified one of the problems... my brain is wired for old style boards
where the rear foot strap is far from the fin.

In these pics... look at the distance of the rear foot strap from the tail of the board...
Even the wave board was at least 12 inches...

I just looked at my new style board and the back foot strap is just a few inches in from of the Fin.

I am not used to this... yet... It will not take long.

Also the 5.5 will not work well on my board because its center of lift is just too far forward.

That's why the board has "for 6.5 to 9.0 sails" written on the side of it.

BTW... everyone here has been a tremendous help... and I so appreciate it.

I will also use bigger sails for my fat a$$ and crank the down haul when the wind picks up...

Boards are faster now because everything is so far back

Thanks again...









Basher
80 posts
Thursday , 15 Aug 2019 8:36AM
Thumbs Up

Select to expand quote
LeeD said..
I've counted among my sailing buds, one 275 lb'er, one 265 lb'er, one 245lb'er, and 3 235lb'ers.
Less downhaul, footsraps and mast base forwards, high booms, grab foot of mast and sail to lightwind waterstart.
And g/f for 8 years taught windsurfing at Poncetrain for 5 years.



All that detail is pretty good, except the mast foot forwards bit.
I'm happy to go out on a limb about that point, because a lot of people don't get this.
If you shift the mast foot forwards, the theory is that it loads the front of the board better, either with dead rig weight or else with rig power when sheeted in. It might also allow you to stand further forwards. Sounds logical, right?

But what actually happens is in shifting the mast base forwards you rake the mast back and that lowers the boom, and that in turn traps the sailor under the rig and stops him or her leaning forwards. The extra mast rake keeps people stuck in old school stance - usually with short harness lines and convinced they need a seat harness.
Far better to keep the mast foot back a bit, like centre track, but shift the front footstraps forward instead. Then the rig sets upright, the boom stays high, and you can lean forwards better to level the board. It's part of a modern upright stance where you are positioned closer to the mast and are better able to react.
Having the mast foot back also brings the rig load closer to the fin, and that gets you more torque over the fin to get more lift at low speeds. That's really part of the the same argument we use when overpowered - when we say shift the mast foot forwards when the board is tail walking. So to help early planing and for better speed on light winds, try shifting the mast foot back.

Just something to try, anyway.
I'm not a great fan of telling others how to sail their kit. It's simply worth understanding what does what, and how simple changes can alter your stance to better effect.

All too often we get dumb answers in windsurfing - like: I'm spinning out what do I do? The dumb answer is to fit a bigger fin. The correct answer is to find the source of the spinout - which is usually harness lines badly positioned or bad sailing stance due to mast foot too far forwards.

BSN101
WA, 1660 posts
Thursday , 15 Aug 2019 9:30AM
Thumbs Up

Number one rule with advice...

Listen to it all and try what rings true and take on board what works for you.

NB - mast foot appeared to be at the most rear position in the first post. This is an unusual position on a 150l board. It's not wrong but might not be right. Start central as a beginner and as you progress experiment in other positions.

fangman
WA, 875 posts
Thursday , 15 Aug 2019 9:32AM
Thumbs Up

Hey Eddie, my two cents worth. I am about the same weight as you and I have noticed a few things that are particular to being heavier than 95% of sailors. Absolutely +1 on most of the stuff above, i.e. Get your weight forward + lots mast foot pressure at lower speeds, and slightly less downhaul. Your increased righting moment (weight = leverage) results in the mast flexing under load to leeward more and thereby opening the leech more. On the downside and as a result, you will also have more broken bits of carbon in your garage than them. What is an 'indestructible' bit of kit for the 70-80kg brigade, is simply a 'lasts slightly longer' piece of kit to heavy sailors. Second, when seeking rigging advice from lightweights, be sure to ask them what they would rig if they had two bags of fertiliser strapped to the board as well. And finally, I find the transitional differences with newer boards and their short waterline lengths is amplified. The older longer boards are more gentle in their transition from displacement mode to planing. I have found my newer board of the same volume, needs more power, aggression and downwind direction to 'pop' it onto the plane. Once on the plane, however, it is a delight to use. So best of luck, persevere and enjoy.

LeeD
561 posts
Thursday , 15 Aug 2019 10:01AM
Thumbs Up

I actually ride the Shark 150 occasionally. No conjecture or guessing.
I am expert in windsurfing.
At 163 lbs. last time, straps out and fully back, mast base just forward of center, 5.8 Loft 3 cam, 50 fin, and the tail sinks in any lull.
Mast base back would be horrible, just like any slalom board. 23" from center of front straps to center of mast base.
Old school for sure.



Subscribe
Reply

Forums > Windsurfing General


"Have trouble with my setup." started by EddieWeeks