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Importance of team rider for sail development?

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Created by Nubie > 9 months ago, 7 Apr 2019
Gestalt
QLD, 14097 posts
12 Apr 2019 12:27AM
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Mark _australia said..

Gestalt said.. what he said is simply not true. i think he said it to elevate himself above others and to make his sails appear better. pretty uncool i think. who are these designers that dont windsurf?



He admitted he does not know everything and his stuff is not always the bast. Now how often do you hear that from anyone....?

I actually have no idea who he is referring to, but he did say not windsurfing much....... so if we consider who is not on the water most days maybe Barry Spanier and Robert Stroj? I dunno.

But maybe what he is saying is they all started at grassroots.......but not all sail designers still sail every day they can. You can't tell me all sail as much as Severne, Diffin, Ezzy,

SO if we consider who sails most days, yes all those folks on your list for sure. But maybe a couple of designers hardly sail anymore and rely on very talented sailors, who may not be the best at translating stuff into engineering/design talk, to drive their product design?

I dunno but if he has been in the industry for 30yrs and reckons SOME others SOMETIMES don't sail much and usually pro sailors can't give him valuable feedback - I tend to believe him.

So what did he say that is "simply not true"? I'm interested.


i would of thought it pretty obvious what statements he made are simply not true. ive said it twice now and quoted him and there's no point in me just repeating myself for the sake of repeating myself.

forceten
1312 posts
12 Apr 2019 8:22AM
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Gestalt said..


Mark _australia said..



Gestalt said.. david did a pretty good job of bagging the industry with his comments.





I thought I missed something so I read the whole article not just that one question.
I think quite the opposite, he admitted his failings and made general comments, then in that one question he mentioned that some brands' designers don't sail/ sail much.
He was critical of that, but said he takes a different approach.
Wouldn't say he bagged out the industry




what he said is simply not true. i think he said it to elevate himself above others and to make his sails appear better. pretty uncool i think.

who are these designers that dont windsurf?


Gestalt
Did you actually read this interview when it came out 6 years ago?

You are calling David Ezzy a liar,
you think, you think he said it to elevate himself above others...you think.
Ezzy sails are among the best, Worldwide they are considered , that , among the best.

Mark _australia
WA, 22081 posts
12 Apr 2019 9:47AM
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Gestalt said.. i would of thought it pretty obvious what statements he made are simply not true. ive said it twice now and quoted him and there's no point in me just repeating myself for the sake of repeating myself.



You only took issue with one.
You said:
"the main thing he said was.
" A lot of the other designers don't windsurf" "

Now you are saying statements (plural) I'd love to know which ones you take issue with.
If it really is only that one about "a lot of the other designers don't windsurf (or windsurf very much" well maybe its true. I don't know, I figured Dave E would know. Yeah its a bagging others comment but if the shoe fits.....

Just curious if I missed something...... on the other hand now I know this is six years old - don't really GAF.

Imax1
QLD, 4520 posts
12 Apr 2019 7:00PM
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Are we bored or what
Alkahol and no wind .
Great to be here

Gestalt
QLD, 14097 posts
12 Apr 2019 7:33PM
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Mark _australia said..

Gestalt said.. i would of thought it pretty obvious what statements he made are simply not true. ive said it twice now and quoted him and there's no point in me just repeating myself for the sake of repeating myself.




You only took issue with one.
You said:
"the main thing he said was.
" A lot of the other designers don't windsurf" "

Now you are saying statements (plural) I'd love to know which ones you take issue with.
If it really is only that one about "a lot of the other designers don't windsurf (or windsurf very much" well maybe its true. I don't know, I figured Dave E would know. Yeah its a bagging others comment but if the shoe fits.....

Just curious if I missed something...... on the other hand now I know this is six years old - don't really GAF.


let it go mark....

if you don't really gaf then why are you worried about singular, plural.......

Imax1
QLD, 4520 posts
12 Apr 2019 7:44PM
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Group hug ?

515
770 posts
12 Apr 2019 6:09PM
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Hugh respect for Dave Ezzy as sail designer and sailor and he has his option especially as he is shaping the sail around a mast curve/ stiffness/bend using luff curve and seam shape.
Back to general topic of team rider importance on sail development.
Having been involved building boards and getting an understanding on relationship between design elements on how handling changes. Then when seeing a local sailmaker sails being as competitive against the major brands and overtime being able to get specialized speed sail, a race sail then bump and jump and finally wave sails was extremely satisfying. That local sailmaker went on to work for major brand.
Overtime from getting an order to being team rider involved good discussion input and feedback.
I was lucky in terms of timing, very lucky
What a great sport!

Basher
522 posts
12 Apr 2019 9:35PM
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I'd like to stick up for all the team riders - even though they are a dying breed as the shrinking industry turnover means they can't be paid.
(You probably need an independent income nowadays if you want to be a 'pro sailor'.)

But these guys also do a good job. On one level it's just a 'second opinion' for a sailmaker who can test his own designs. More usually it's taking the sail or board to the top level of competition and showing how well it works whilst finding out over a long period how it might be improved.

If you are designer then it's a mistake to think you know everything and can just keep on producing the same design in new colours each season. The pro and sponsored sailors are there to be at the cutting edge of design, picking up the new ideas, and developing new moves which might require a different design approach.

Those pro sailors are also there to promote the new gear and to keep us entertained and inspired.

forceten
1312 posts
12 Apr 2019 10:59PM
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Imax1 said..
Are we bored or what
Alkahol and no wind .
Great to be here


Some poster has no life. Some quote a portion of a sentence to make a point. Bored no.

I assume you mean alcohol. Can only respond to me, no. Also no wind it's winter here.
I assume you are being sarcastic , not pleased with reading the current discussion on this thread .
You have many options.

gorgesailor
598 posts
13 Apr 2019 12:26AM
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Basher said..
I'd like to stick up for all the team riders - even though they are a dying breed as the shrinking industry turnover means they can't be paid.
(You probably need an independent income nowadays if you want to be a 'pro sailor'.)

But these guys also do a good job. On one level it's just a 'second opinion' for a sailmaker who can test his own designs. More usually it's taking the sail or board to the top level of competition and showing how well it works whilst finding out over a long period how it might be improved.

If you are designer then it's a mistake to think you know everything and can just keep on producing the same design in new colours each season. The pro and sponsored sailors are there to be at the cutting edge of design, picking up the new ideas, and developing new moves which might require a different design approach.

Those pro sailors are also there to promote the new gear and to keep us entertained and inspired.


I would say Ezzy was overstating it with his comment a bit but it is interesting how it shows in the character of the sails. If you rely mostly on your own experience, & you are a good sailor like David with sound theoretical basis, then your sails will work well but have a definite character due to your personal preferences. If you rely on a combination of Team rider feedback, personal experience as an accomplished sailor & customer feedback you will have a more rounded range of sails IMO. I see both examples in practice & they both can be successful but the approach shows in the finished product.

AUS4
NSW, 1249 posts
13 Apr 2019 8:14AM
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gorgesailor
598 posts
13 Apr 2019 7:26AM
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AUS4 said..




Exactly! ... no team rider came up with that!

Faff
VIC, 1159 posts
13 Apr 2019 5:46PM
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forceten said..

Gestalt said..



Mark _australia said..




Gestalt said.. david did a pretty good job of bagging the industry with his comments.






I thought I missed something so I read the whole article not just that one question.
I think quite the opposite, he admitted his failings and made general comments, then in that one question he mentioned that some brands' designers don't sail/ sail much.
He was critical of that, but said he takes a different approach.
Wouldn't say he bagged out the industry





what he said is simply not true. i think he said it to elevate himself above others and to make his sails appear better. pretty uncool i think.

who are these designers that dont windsurf?



Gestalt
Did you actually read this interview when it came out 6 years ago?

You are calling David Ezzy a liar,
you think, you think he said it to elevate himself above others...you think.
Ezzy sails are among the best, Worldwide they are considered , that , among the best.


Not sure about the best, but they are definitely unlike anything else. Ezzy claims that rotational sails are "wrong". He might be onto something. Since in the short time I've been windsurfing (5 years), there's been a shift away from sails relying on the mast curve to give them shape to more seam shaping. Newer sails don't need as much DH and I believe Ezzy sails have always relied on seam shaping and needed less DH. FWIW, I find Ezzies heavy, spongy, "vague" and a pain to waterstart. Others love them and will use nothing else. They are built like s**t brickhouses, that's for sure.

Basher
522 posts
13 Apr 2019 11:19PM
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Faff said..

Ezzy claims that rotational sails are "wrong". He might be onto something. Since in the short time I've been windsurfing (5 years), there's been a shift away from sails relying on the mast curve to give them shape to more seam shaping. Newer sails don't need as much DH and I believe Ezzy sails have always relied on seam shaping and needed less DH. FWIW, I find Ezzies heavy, spongy, "vague" and a pain to waterstart. Others love them and will use nothing else. They are built like s**t brickhouses, that's for sure.


This debate is nothing new. Sails have always been made with a combination of luff round and with shape cut into them via broadseaming.
A lot of Ezzy sails obviously have little batten rotation around the mast but that means there is fullness in the luff panel which you can't lose when sheeting out - fine for onshore conditions maybe, and offering great power for blasting.
If you're an Ezzy fan who likes down the line wave sailing then your best bet is to go to the Taka, as they have fewer battens and the half batten above the boom means they depower from the luff when feathered or sheeted out.
That 'soft sail' is an old idea in windsurfing, not a new one.

Other brands use a combination of rotation and broadseaming - and I can certainly tell you that my Severne's have both. The broad-seamed shape in the luff panels keeps the sails driving forwards when overpowered, and the ability to rotate and flatten when sheeted out is great for turns and other manoeuvres.

forceten
1312 posts
13 Apr 2019 11:57PM
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Faff said..


forceten said..



Gestalt said..





Mark _australia said..






Gestalt said.. david did a pretty good job of bagging the industry with his comments.








I thought I missed something so I read the whole article not just that one question.
I think quite the opposite, he admitted his failings and made general comments, then in that one question he mentioned that some brands' designers don't sail/ sail much.
He was critical of that, but said he takes a different approach.
Wouldn't say he bagged out the industry







what he said is simply not true. i think he said it to elevate himself above others and to make his sails appear better. pretty uncool i think.

who are these designers that dont windsurf?





Gestalt
Did you actually read this interview when it came out 6 years ago?

You are calling David Ezzy a liar,
you think, you think he said it to elevate himself above others...you think.
Ezzy sails are among the best, Worldwide they are considered , that , among the best.




Not sure about the best, but they are definitely unlike anything else. Ezzy claims that rotational sails are "wrong". He might be onto something. Since in the short time I've been windsurfing (5 years), there's been a shift away from sails relying on the mast curve to give them shape to more seam shaping. Newer sails don't need as much DH and I believe Ezzy sails have always relied on seam shaping and needed less DH. FWIW, I find Ezzies heavy, spongy, "vague" and a pain to waterstart. Others love them and will use nothing else. They are built like s**t brickhouses, that's for sure.


Kindly re-read my post. It says amoung the best. Not what you wrote , 'the best'

forceten
1312 posts
14 Apr 2019 12:24AM
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gorgesailor said..

Basher said..
I'd like to stick up for all the team riders - even though they are a dying breed as the shrinking industry turnover means they can't be paid.
(You probably need an independent income nowadays if you want to be a 'pro sailor'.)

But these guys also do a good job. On one level it's just a 'second opinion' for a sailmaker who can test his own designs. More usually it's taking the sail or board to the top level of competition and showing how well it works whilst finding out over a long period how it might be improved.

If you are designer then it's a mistake to think you know everything and can just keep on producing the same design in new colours each season. The pro and sponsored sailors are there to be at the cutting edge of design, picking up the new ideas, and developing new moves which might require a different design approach.

Those pro sailors are also there to promote the new gear and to keep us entertained and inspired.



I would say Ezzy was overstating it with his comment a bit but it is interesting how it shows in the character of the sails. If you rely mostly on your own experience, & you are a good sailor like David with sound theoretical basis, then your sails will work well but have a definite character due to your personal preferences. If you rely on a combination of Team rider feedback, personal experience as an accomplished sailor & customer feedback you will have a more rounded range of sails IMO. I see both examples in practice & they both can be successful but the approach shows in the finished product.


Point : I'm not picking apart your post. It's obvious to most, clearly not all, but then when is it ever ...that Ezzy Sails are considered to be very good products, In terms of build , durability , range ease of use. He has pioneered many little gizmos that make rigging a breeze. Not everyone likes the feel, some consider them heavy, both in weight and feel while others praise this. His sails work with most mast curves and standard or skinny. At one time he had but 2 sails, times changes, progress... we now have automatic transmissions.
Jeff Henderson's sails are among the best , they differ from Ezzys. The similarity between the Taka and KS3, are still surprising to me. Both Tom Hammerton, and Kauai Seadi have finger prints on the HSM line. In rigging and use Hot Sails show the touch of a sailor, lightness and being very crisp. The Superfreak line , while cult, is still a oddity of sails.
Doesn't suit all.

From an industry point of view, development and ingredients to make a final product , you surely have a focus on the process. I don't see one person from beginning to end, designing batten ends or sail panels.



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"Importance of team rider for sail development?" started by Nubie