Good question.

I think trying to get an average answer would be like my mate Barney said about trying to describe the average Professor: "A professor is a human being who on average has one breast, one ovary and one testicle."

Can Lewis Hamilton design F1 car? NO
He can give feedback to his engineer who use this informations to improve car performanse.

But feedbacks are subjective things and can be different between riders,so here begins problem.(hmm maybe Ezzy is right)

On the end only "stopwatch" will tell if modifications on F1car are good ot not.

But where is "stopwatch" in windsurfing ?

Very good point from Dave Ezzy but I recon that it all depends on the rider and their personal input and where they want to sell the sails, the European market and American markets like to see the stars from those country's competing etc.

second point is the way F1 works. A test drive isn't any good if they can't relay the correct info to the race engineers so test driving is exceptionally important and most test drivers are ex race drivers but just don't want to compete any more or are more useful to the team as a tester.

A lot of company's these days have really good sailors that don't compete but are really good at getting the info to the designer, what changes could be made etc.

I do recon Mr Ezzy is wrong about the designer not sailing, Kai from norths was a fine sailor in his time, RRD use John Skye who until recently was on the tour. Naish, well say no more everyone there sails.

Nubie said..

Madge said..
I do recon Mr Ezzy is wrong about the designer not sailing, Kai from norths was a fine sailor in his time, RRD use John Skye who until recently was on the tour. Naish, well say no more everyone there sails.

I do not think that designer must sail.I think that is most important that they know about aerodynamics,also desing sail does not mean that you are good tailor,sewing is just way how sail is made..
Which designer study aerodynamics university or something similar?

In F1 is diffrent,you can not be baker or ex driver who develop "front wing" for Ferrari..You must be engineer.
Even they never sit in F1 car they do they job very good because they spent years at university to learn this knowledge.

So I think knowledge is the key.

I know of at least one designer who has his team do thorough testing of designs/ concepts. He's an extremely good and multi talented sailor, but he will quite happily give a proto to a trusted local to try out/give feedback on. Especially if the sail is for a discipline that is not his forte. The proto sails that come back looking like a flogged out rag move forward in the design process. The proto's that come back still looking crisp, not so much.

The designer being a sailor most certainly is of benefit. An engineer might have the know how to make an efficient aerodynamic shape, but it has to interact with a board and rider. What looks good on paper sometimes doesn't make for a user friendly product.

Nubie said..

Madge said..
I do recon Mr Ezzy is wrong about the designer not sailing, Kai from norths was a fine sailor in his time, RRD use John Skye who until recently was on the tour. Naish, well say no more everyone there sails.

I do not think that designer must sail.I think that is most important that they know about aerodynamics,also desing sail does not mean that you are good tailor,sewing is just way how sail is made..
Which designer study aerodynamics university or something similar?

In F1 is diffrent,you can not be baker or ex driver who develop "front wing" for Ferrari..You must be engineer.
Even they never sit in F1 car they do they job very good because they spent years at university to learn this knowledge.

So I think knowledge is the key.

The aerodynamicist, engineer and more, design the front wing on the F1 car, wind tunnel, etc .F1 teams have a development 3rd driver to evaluate if a wing or whatever, works. Yes Louis couldn't design a car, Alonso maybe could.
the best designer, will need evaluations.


sails: David Ezzy : Rather structured in his thinking . He released one of first 4 batten sails, then 3, then foil. Most of his development is to continue to improve a existing sail, so improve the quiver lineup, sometimes only a little change from year to year. His son Graham,ultimate team rider, I'm sure has a vital role here. Kevin Prichard , is a Team Rider, for sure.
David doesn't support a full on scale sponsor in PWA nor IWT.
The requirements of a pro , like Kevin can be the same as me.
Hot Sails Maui: Jeff Henderson is the designer,he sails all the time, they do have riders with HSM support .

The use of both Ezzy and Hot Sails Maui sails clearly show that a sailor has been involved with design.

Davids factory in Sri Lanka, treats the workers very well. When David visits he tries to sweep the floor, they won't let him do such work. He provides a hot meal. They reached out to help when a tsunami damaged homes.
He will answer most emails very quickly, most times if I call, he answers the phone himself.On Maui , he will spend time for rigging question, or just conversation.

My point is Ezzy, doesn't need to invest in a Team support, other than what he has.

BTW, I'm not in the Lewis parade. He is a awesome talent. Kimi OTOH, is near the front of my Parade.

Team riders are important , maybe not as beneficial as designers like( same as F1 driver is to its designers). But they get the gear on the water and help sales by proving the gear ,weather they break the gear or break a record we are watching ??

It all comes down to communication, the designer/engineer/crew chief needs to be on the same page as the driver/rider, using the same terminology in all aspects of performance.
"The car is loose in, fine in the middle, and plows on exit", says the driver, the crew chief has to know exactly what's needed.
Dave Ezzy has probably never had a rider with the communication skills that Dave can instantly understand or trust. I guess that goes for Graham as well, who knows, father/son relationships can be confusing. But Graham is a great ambassador for the brand never the less.

Nubie said..

Subsonic said

What looks good on paper sometimes doesn't make for a user friendly product.

If you give today slalom boards,wide,paralel outlines,hard rails etc to riders in 1990,they will say that board is very brutal to sail/jibe...
But sometimes riders must adapt to new stuff in purpose of performance.

There were a lot of **** boards and sails in the mid 90s because, while they were fast, they were brutal to the average rec sailor. We didn't often have ,amy freeride options especially in larger slalom boards and sails. Modern kit outside of pure race kit is much more user friendly.

Gestalt said..
What a dick thing to say david ezzy.

What a dick thing to say Gestalt.

I think both approaches can be appreciated without polarising the other side.

We all win when the sail designer sails as well as it inarguably creates a development turbo boost effect.

I respect what Ezzy do - they have their own program, they don't go after the endless results and podiums. and i think they have a cool niche for durable sails that go well - with a bit of the weight being the price of that extended durability. His son graham is an awesome sailor - so hats off and respect.

Ben Severne has mad sailing skills - and can get feedback from himself - but the ability to have feedback from the best racers who are handling forces and dynamics none of us can imagine mean that the performance envelope can be developed accordingly. And don't even get me started on the insanity that Jaeger and Philip bring.

everyone here knows I have a Severne bias - but I am very pro windsurfing (and pro cinematography) so...

if you want a real feelgood story on a similar theme - check this out. Monty Spindler's Story

C7: How important are team riders and a professional world tour for a brand?

I agree with Dave on this one, I don't use Ezzy sails,
Team rides are genetically gifted they have a way higher skill level than average Joe. They just make the brand look good and are great for marketing propaganda.
Ideally an above average sailor making and designing the sails will make a more user friendly product. They should have a group of average sailors for feedback.

Mainbreak said..
C7: How important are team riders and a professional world tour for a brand?

I agree with Dave on this one, I don't use Ezzy sails,
Team rides are genetically gifted they have a way higher skill level than average Joe. They just make the brand look good and are great for marketing propaganda.
Ideally an above average sailor making and designing the sails will make a more user friendly product. They should have a group of average sailors for feedback.

average sailors are important- when Svein rasmussen developed his hugely popular carve boards he was up in eveyones grill getting feedback-but you also need to find the edge of the envelope to understand your parameters and limits- a good team rider will deliver that.

^ Sponsership.
It's just getting gifted performers; racers, freestylers, anyone with a lot of skill and exposure, to display your product. Compensation ranges from discounts on gear to significant payments.

AusMoz said..
Just some clarification - is a team rider just another way to say someone is sponsored???

Team Rider : being sponsored could mean they receive sails, ( like no payment ) to ride that brand. It could also mean they receive sails and money to compete . It can also mean they can purchase sails at the wholesale or cost price, to promote, also called an Ambassador.

for someone to provide feedback or development they would be a Team Rider. One doesn't need to be a epic rider ,
they would need to be able to communicate tests.

David is David. I love his sail, I hate when he snakes my waves and he is very binary, all the best ingredients to be a good sail designer!? ;-)

If F1 engineer could drives f1 cars and of F1 rider could be F1 engineer....maybe, but windsurfing sails are not rocket science also.

Probably depend who is your target audience also, but in the case of Ezzy, he is a good sailor and he definitely provide feedback for himself, but he was probably more trying to justify why he don't really sponsoring much PWA riders.