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Sail specs

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Created by zisconnected Two weeks ago, 25 Sep 2019
zisconnected
9 posts
25 Sep 2019 4:35AM
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So I got an old hand me down kit from someone who had this setup but didn't know anything about it. From what I can discern it's from the 90's and I have no idea if the sail is original or not. I don't have any experience rigging it and there are no shops in my area to ask. I can't seem to find a spec sheet to tell me what to set my mast extension at and I don't see any marks on the sail. The only thing not pictured is the mast but I am not at home. I've been doing a lot of reading and the rest of the rigging looks straightforward. Any help would be greatly appreciated!






srtgumbee
94 posts
25 Sep 2019 6:48AM
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Hi and welcome to the Seabreeze forum,

The luff of 495cm is the length the sail needs to be when rigged. So the Mast + Extension should provide a total length of 495cm.
If you have a 490cm mast then you will require extension of 5cm.
If you have a 460cm mast, then you will require extension of 35cm.
This will give you a ball park to aim for.

I'm making an assumption you are a beginner to windsurfing? So on a side note, it appears you have a Bic Tempo 265cm board and the specs of it on this page: world.bicsport.com/windsurf/support/previous-range.html indicate it has 95 liters of volume and is 58cm wide. It is designed for high winds and an experienced sailor who preferably can water start. Regardless of sailor's weight, in low winds it will be wobbly and if the sailor's weight is over 90kgs it will sink....other words it would be hard to learn on!

Happy to help if you have other questions

forceten
794 posts
25 Sep 2019 8:38AM
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You may be correct the 90s, 1890s. Apology , it is olde. It is shown as 6.8, square meters. The size is for light wind, it's large.
Its original. But I think you mean it came with the board. The components mostly are sold separately.
its the opposite of high tech.
Follow the suggestion given .
The board length in centimeters is 265. The volume, water displaced, in very simple explanation is 95liters.
the 95 liters is too small to learn on, unless you are a child.
it will be frustrating to try and learn on.


zisconnected
9 posts
25 Sep 2019 9:41AM
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Thank you both so much! Yes. I'm a beginner. I'm only trying it because I got this for free and figured what do I have to lose other than pride.... Besides learning theory from the videos and reading I learned that I'm going to fall. Probably a lot and hopefully have fun doing it. I've spent time assembling it on land and will hopefully be able to sail tomorrow. We shall see!

Harrow
NSW, 2774 posts
25 Sep 2019 11:52AM
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What do you weigh? You've probably got Buckley's chance of making any progress, but hopefully you'll have a fun day anyway. If you enjoy yourself, let us know and plenty of people will be happy to advise a setup that is more realistic.

decrepit
WA, 9511 posts
25 Sep 2019 10:03AM
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Yes, unless you are very light, you'll have a lot of trouble following any learning vid. That'll want you to balance on the board and uphaul the sail. a 95l board will only support 95kg, which includes the weight of board and sail. That could be around 15kg, so if you are around 80kg the whole board will be under water, and extremely unstable. To have a chance you'd need to be 60kg or less.
However there is another option that can work if you aren't much over 70kg, enthusiastic and fit. That's to start by water starting not uphauling. This method involves a lot of counter intuitive techniques, and you really need a good instructor who has taught this method. Could be hard to find, not many do this.

gavnwend
NSW, 1036 posts
25 Sep 2019 12:48PM
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Good luck to him! We all started somewhere.though l think the board is a tad bit small for a beginner.

Imax1
VIC, 2251 posts
25 Sep 2019 4:27PM
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This is important , very important .
Make sure its onshore wind !

Harrow
NSW, 2774 posts
25 Sep 2019 5:27PM
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Oh yeah, pay attention to the note "IMPORTANT" that is printed on the sail. It is actually exactly opposite to how modern sails are rigged, so any recent video you watched might have confused you on that point. If you don't do what it says, you could rip the bottom off the sail.

decrepit
WA, 9511 posts
25 Sep 2019 4:09PM
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Select to expand quote
Harrow said..
Oh yeah, pay attention to the note "IMPORTANT" that is printed on the sail. It is actually exactly opposite to how modern sails are rigged, so any recent video you watched might have confused you on that point. If you don't do what it says, you could rip the bottom off the sail.


Great point, I'd forgotten that. Also of course the reverse is true if upgrade to a modern sail, rig it like that ancient thing you have and it'll be really horrible.

zisconnected
9 posts
25 Sep 2019 5:48PM
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I fluctuate between 72 and 75kg. It makes sense but I didn't consider weight to be a factor. Any threads, videos, articles or advice on anything else I'd need to know would be appreciated. I'm sure there's a lot more that I do not know. Thanks again for taking the time to respond!

decrepit
WA, 9511 posts
25 Sep 2019 6:17PM
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So basic things, learn to come in before you learn to go out!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Always learn everything new in BOTH directions, just because you can do something one way doesn't mean you can the other. This is an ambidextrous sport. We don't refer to left and right hands/feet, it's front and back, that way the instruction works both ways.

So if necessary front hand hangs on, back hand lets go, that way you're still in control, try the other way and you'll be over the side.

So most of the board should be out of the water when standing on it stationery, an experienced sailor could uphaul it, but learning by the uphaul method will be extremely hard. It's the transition from pulling the sail up by the rope, to hanging on to the boom that will get you, a light breeze is probably the easiest. it gives the sail a bit of power you can use to stabilise yourself.

But you are a good weight to learn to water start first. You want a little more wind for this, just enough to hold the sail up at first.
First thing is to learn to "fly" the sail. On that rig you can rest the boom on the back of the board, with the board pointing across the wind, and you on the windward side of the board next to the boom floating in the water. (Oh yes the boom, for learning uphauling, you want the boom around neck height to give you leverage over the rig, for waterstarting around chest height to give the rig leverage over you).
Put one foot on the board, grab the boom with the front hand close to the mast, and back hand about shoulder width further back, kick with the other foot to stop downwind drift, pull the rig towards you and lift the front hand a bit. This should get the wind under the sail and lift it up. When you've managed that. it's time to practice steering.
Don't try and get on the board yet!!! Concentrate on keeping the board across the wind, go for a bit of a body drag, then turn around and do the same on the other tack.

I must go, more later.

decrepit
WA, 9511 posts
25 Sep 2019 7:19PM
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So to water start I prefer putting the back foot in the back strap, it helps me control the board, I can push and pull the tail around. But I'm in the minority here, so if that doesn't work for you experiment and find what does.

To steer, you move the sail around forward to go downwind, back to go upwind, This is important, without this skill, the board will point in the wrong direction for you to get up on it.
So once you can body drag in both directions at 9o degrees to the wind, you're almost ready to try letting the sail pull you up on to it.
But first you need a bit more sail control, in moderate wind, stand the rig up on soft ground, then try leaning your weight on the rig, control the power in the sail with your back hand, if your getting pulled down wind, let the back hand out a bit, if you're falling backwards pull the back hand in. If there's not enough wind, obviously there's a limit to how far you can lean out. If you feel confident with that on both sides, when the wind is just strong enough to take all your weight, you're ready to try getting pulled on to the board.

This is where the counter intuitive thing happens.
If you're hanging on to something trying to get up, you push with your feet and pull with your hands.
THIS IS EXACTLY WRONG!!!!!!!!
You have to pull with your feet and push with your hands, remember this, especially if you find yourself falling back into the water.

The next important thing is to use the last lesson you learned, if the board starts going upwind, the sail will loose power and you'll fall in. if you drift downwind, the sail will power up and you could get pulled over the front.

The technique varies a bit depending how powered up you are. If you are under powered, kick harder with the leg in the water, throw the sail up into the air, get you weight over the board, (pull the back of the board under your bum) pushing the sail up and forward to stop going upwind.
If you are overpowered, head a bit more upwind, to reduce sail power, and lift sail slowly so you can control the power easier, as the power increases put more weight on the sail until you're on the board. If you've learned sail control well enough you're under way.

If you use my back foot in strap technique, you'll be too far back on the board, put the front foot as far forward as you can, take your weight on the boom, and move back foot forward. Trimming the board for and aft is now important, the slower you go, the further forward you need to be, (without sinking the nose of course). As you get powered up, and increase speed, you can move backwards, this will increase your speed and you can move back more. But don't rush to get into those straps, you'll need a bit more experience before you can do that.
Being in the back straps comfortably needs a lot of weight on the boom, unless you're very strong, this also means having a harness and being in the straps.

zisconnected
9 posts
25 Sep 2019 8:52PM
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Select to expand quote
decrepit said..
So to water start I prefer putting the back foot in the back strap, it helps me control the board, I can push and pull the tail around. But I'm in the minority here, so if that doesn't work for you experiment and find what does.

To steer, you move the sail around forward to go downwind, back to go upwind, This is important, without this skill, the board will point in the wrong direction for you to get up on it.
So once you can body drag in both directions at 9o degrees to the wind, you're almost ready to try letting the sail pull you up on to it.
But first you need a bit more sail control, in moderate wind, stand the rig up on soft ground, then try leaning your weight on the rig, control the power in the sail with your back hand, if your getting pulled down wind, let the back hand out a bit, if you're falling backwards pull the back hand in. If there's not enough wind, obviously there's a limit to how far you can lean out. If you feel confident with that on both sides, when the wind is just strong enough to take all your weight, you're ready to try getting pulled on to the board.

This is where the counter intuitive thing happens.
If you're hanging on to something trying to get up, you push with your feet and pull with your hands.
THIS IS EXACTLY WRONG!!!!!!!!
You have to pull with your feet and push with your hands, remember this, especially if you find yourself falling back into the water.

The next important thing is to use the last lesson you learned, if the board starts going upwind, the sail will loose power and you'll fall in. if you drift downwind, the sail will power up and you could get pulled over the front.

The technique varies a bit depending how powered up you are. If you are under powered, kick harder with the leg in the water, throw the sail up into the air, get you weight over the board, (pull the back of the board under your bum) pushing the sail up and forward to stop going upwind.
If you are overpowered, head a bit more upwind, to reduce sail power, and lift sail slowly so you can control the power easier, as the power increases put more weight on the sail until you're on the board. If you've learned sail control well enough you're under way.

If you use my back foot in strap technique, you'll be too far back on the board, put the front foot as far forward as you can, take your weight on the boom, and move back foot forward. Trimming the board for and aft is now important, the slower you go, the further forward you need to be, (without sinking the nose of course). As you get powered up, and increase speed, you can move backwards, this will increase your speed and you can move back more. But don't rush to get into those straps, you'll need a bit more experience before you can do that.
Being in the back straps comfortably needs a lot of weight on the boom, unless you're very strong, this also means having a harness and being in the straps.


Thank you! This is everything that I've been looking for all in one place in plain English!

decrepit
WA, 9511 posts
25 Sep 2019 9:50PM
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Well good luck, hope it helps. Just don't expect it to be easy, you can spend a lot of time looking stupid this way, and will take a while before you're successfully sailing. Where as with good modern dedicated learning gear, you could actually be sailing in the first few minutes, if you have half decent balance, and go out in ideal conditions.

forceten
794 posts
25 Sep 2019 10:20PM
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Select to expand quote
Imax1 said..
This is important , very important .
Make sure its onshore wind !


This is also, others in the area that can offer some supporting knowledge of rigging. Most important a rescue plan which includes a reliable person, cell phone, should you manage to actually sail . Think about self rescue, life jacket.
A will.

zisconnected
9 posts
26 Sep 2019 6:27AM
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I've never had so much fun or laughed so hard all whilst failing at something. 10/10 would do again. There was maybe a 2 to 3 mph wind so all I could seem to do was figure out how to get up and then fall over. It was great!


Harrow
NSW, 2774 posts
26 Sep 2019 8:43AM
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If you enjoyed that, grab yourself a really big board, possibly with a centerboard, and in a similarly light breeze I bet you'll get going across the water in a few minutes.

You'll be able to pick up an old chunker for almost nothing if you look around.

MikeyS
VIC, 1443 posts
26 Sep 2019 11:13AM
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If you think that was fun, just wait till you start actually sailing!

To make it easier when you're uphauling (pulling the sail up out of the water), use a longer rope that is tied either to the mast, just above the boom, or to the boom but closer to the mast. That way you'll get better leverage over the sail when you pull it up, and you don't have to lean forward as much. You'll last longer if you keep your back upright and pull up through your thighs, rather than using your back. Also, use a longer rope, preferably with plenty of slack in it, with knots tied every 6 inches or so so you can get an easier grip on it. Usually the other end of this rope (the uphaul) is tied to the bottom of the mast, usually with bungee cord, but don't worry too much about that for the moment.


Looking good so far.

zisconnected
9 posts
26 Sep 2019 9:32AM
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Select to expand quote
MikeyS said..
If you think that was fun, just wait till you start actually sailing!

To make it easier when you're uphauling (pulling the sail up out of the water), use a longer rope that is tied either to the mast, just above the boom, or to the boom but closer to the mast. That way you'll get better leverage over the sail when you pull it up, and you don't have to lean forward as much. You'll last longer if you keep your back upright and pull up through your thighs, rather than using your back. Also, use a longer rope, preferably with plenty of slack in it, with knots tied every 6 inches or so so you can get an easier grip on it. Usually the other end of this rope (the uphaul) is tied to the bottom of the mast, usually with bungee cord, but don't worry too much about that for the moment.


Looking good so far.


Great idea! I realized while I was in the water that there was no rope on the boom. A bystander had the idea of untying one end of the rope loops on the boom, sliding it to the front and giving it a go. Turned out to be a great idea. I have rope stowed away somewhere. Just have to find it.

Other than letting the sail dry out in my garage, any other advice for taking care of my old equipment?

NotWal
QLD, 7075 posts
26 Sep 2019 12:33PM
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Where are you Zis? That photo looks like it might be on a lake. You usually get turbulent gusty winds on inland lakes. Smooth winds blowing off the sea are much better.

decrepit
WA, 9511 posts
26 Sep 2019 10:42AM
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Wow, that's floating you much better than theory says. Looks like the standard uphaul instructions could work for you after all. Yes usually there's a hole at the front of the boom to tie the uphaul to. A purpose built uphaul has an elastic bottom, so you can attache it to the bottom of the rig. The elastic keeps it against the mast, easy to grab when you need it, but don't trip over it when you don't. It needs to be longer than the harness line. Bending over like you are is bad for your back. A longer rope allows you to stand straight and just lean back.
It also looks like the boom is a tad low, this will make it harder to uphaul.

Keep the sail out of the sun as much as possible, the mylar film degrades with UV exposure

Harrow
NSW, 2774 posts
26 Sep 2019 5:52PM
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Select to expand quote
decrepit said..
Wow, that's floating you much better than theory says.

I'm guessing it started going under once the rig was clear of the water.

Madge
NSW, 176 posts
26 Sep 2019 6:08PM
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Select to expand quote
zisconnected said..

MikeyS said..
If you think that was fun, just wait till you start actually sailing!

To make it easier when you're uphauling (pulling the sail up out of the water), use a longer rope that is tied either to the mast, just above the boom, or to the boom but closer to the mast. That way you'll get better leverage over the sail when you pull it up, and you don't have to lean forward as much. You'll last longer if you keep your back upright and pull up through your thighs, rather than using your back. Also, use a longer rope, preferably with plenty of slack in it, with knots tied every 6 inches or so so you can get an easier grip on it. Usually the other end of this rope (the uphaul) is tied to the bottom of the mast, usually with bungee cord, but don't worry too much about that for the moment.


Looking good so far.



Great idea! I realized while I was in the water that there was no rope on the boom. A bystander had the idea of untying one end of the rope loops on the boom, sliding it to the front and giving it a go. Turned out to be a great idea. I have rope stowed away somewhere. Just have to find it.

Other than letting the sail dry out in my garage, any other advice for taking care of my old equipment?


Where are you based, might have a board you can borrow...

decrepit
WA, 9511 posts
26 Sep 2019 5:58PM
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Doubt, Zis's talking wind speed in mph, think it's only the yanks that do that now.

decrepit
WA, 9511 posts
26 Sep 2019 5:59PM
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Select to expand quote
Harrow said..
I'm guessing it started going under once the rig was clear of the water.


Ahhhhhhhhh, good point.

Imax1
VIC, 2251 posts
26 Sep 2019 8:46PM
Thumbs Up

If you zoom in on that face,
It brings back memories .
As Harrow says , get an old long board , your rig and rigging will work just fine
On a small lake the wind will be challengingly.
and an old long board will work best . And they are cheap ,if not free.
Please for our amusement and yours , keep us informed on your progress . Pics are great !
As soon as you can go out and return to the same place you will be hooked ,
you will be one of us
one of us
one of us

zisconnected
9 posts
26 Sep 2019 9:58PM
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Select to expand quote
NotWal said..
Where are you Zis? That photo looks like it might be on a lake. You usually get turbulent gusty winds on inland lakes. Smooth winds blowing off the sea are much better.

I am in Upstate New York far away from the Ocean. I guess I will have to wait for the proper conditions!


Select to expand quote
decrepit said..
Wow, that's floating you much better than theory says. Looks like the standard uphaul instructions could work for you after all. Yes usually there's a hole at the front of the boom to tie the uphaul to. A purpose built uphaul has an elastic bottom, so you can attache it to the bottom of the rig. The elastic keeps it against the mast, easy to grab when you need it, but don't trip over it when you don't. It needs to be longer than the harness line. Bending over like you are is bad for your back. A longer rope allows you to stand straight and just lean back.
It also looks like the boom is a tad low, this will make it harder to uphaul.

Keep the sail out of the sun as much as possible, the mylar film degrades with UV exposure

I think that I am on the heavier end for this board but I will start eating some more salads? I found that with changing my foot position it prevented the board from going under.


Select to expand quote
Harrow said..

decrepit said..
Wow, that's floating you much better than theory says.


I'm guessing it started going under once the rig was clear of the water.


If I was too far back or too far forward yes. I did dive like a submariner. If I distributed my weight evenly I was able to get the rig out of the water and nearly up but had trouble not falling over.


Select to expand quote
Madge said..

Where are you based, might have a board you can borrow...


Too far away. : Shrug : Thanks though!


Select to expand quote
decrepit said..
Doubt, Zis's talking wind speed in mph, think it's only the yanks that do that now.


You found me out. Shoot. I can think in kg's. It's a start.....


Select to expand quote
Imax1 said..
If you zoom in on that face,
It brings back memories .
As Harrow says , get an old long board , your rig and rigging will work just fine
On a small lake the wind will be challengingly.
and an old long board will work best . And they are cheap ,if not free.
Please for our amusement and yours , keep us informed on your progress . Pics are great !
As soon as you can go out and return to the same place you will be hooked ,
you will be one of us
one of us
one of us


I'm going to try again next week. I had an absolute blast. Next time I'll mount my gopro. Up close and personal failings. haah!

I've started looking around Facebook Marketplace but unfortunately due to my location there doesn't seem to be much around here. The person who I got the rig from had moved all over the place. All it had was a broken tendon joint. The carbon fiber mast seems to be okay and the sail has one patch in it. Other than that no issues noted. I'm going to keep a lookout for a different board and eat more salad....

Thank you for all of the information! This has been great!

decrepit
WA, 9511 posts
26 Sep 2019 10:35PM
Thumbs Up

I have seen one person fit outriggers to a smaller board to give it better stability while learning, but I'm not sure how successful it was.

forceten
794 posts
26 Sep 2019 10:37PM
Thumbs Up

Select to expand quote
decrepit said..
Wow, that's floating you much better than theory says. Looks like the standard uphaul instructions could work for you after all. Yes usually there's a hole at the front of the boom to tie the uphaul to. A purpose built uphaul has an elastic bottom, so you can attache it to the bottom of the rig. The elastic keeps it against the mast, easy to grab when you need it, but don't trip over it when you don't. It needs to be longer than the harness line. Bending over like you are is bad for your back. A longer rope allows you to stand straight and just lean back.
It also looks like the boom is a tad low, this will make it harder to uphaul.

Keep the sail out of the sun as much as possible, the mylar film degrades with UV exposure


Read the part about a proper Uhaul rope again. This sail I wouldn't fuss over the sun.

i must write to applaud your sailing experience so far. Very well done.
its easier once you get the sail up, to then go off I, IF. A light breeze exists, VS no wind at all.
you can practice the uphaul on land.
watch how the water displaces from the sail when you uphaul , it's easier to raise it part way, let it drain some or all then continue.

The updaul line on the boom will help immensely. Helmet .

zisconnected
9 posts
27 Sep 2019 2:40AM
Thumbs Up

Select to expand quote
forceten said..

decrepit said..
Wow, that's floating you much better than theory says. Looks like the standard uphaul instructions could work for you after all. Yes usually there's a hole at the front of the boom to tie the uphaul to. A purpose built uphaul has an elastic bottom, so you can attache it to the bottom of the rig. The elastic keeps it against the mast, easy to grab when you need it, but don't trip over it when you don't. It needs to be longer than the harness line. Bending over like you are is bad for your back. A longer rope allows you to stand straight and just lean back.
It also looks like the boom is a tad low, this will make it harder to uphaul.

Keep the sail out of the sun as much as possible, the mylar film degrades with UV exposure



Read the part about a proper Uhaul rope again. This sail I wouldn't fuss over the sun.

i must write to applaud your sailing experience so far. Very well done.
its easier once you get the sail up, to then go off I, IF. A light breeze exists, VS no wind at all.
you can practice the uphaul on land.
watch how the water displaces from the sail when you uphaul , it's easier to raise it part way, let it drain some or all then continue.

The updaul line on the boom will help immensely. Helmet .


Your photo is frightening.Also, what is the point of the rope loops tied to the boom?



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"Sail specs" started by zisconnected