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Steps to learn a planing Gybe

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Created by sarwind 5 months ago, 11 Sep 2023
sarwind
8 posts
11 Sep 2023 8:54AM
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Hi all,

For those of you who have mastered the Planing Gybe, how did you learn it? what was your progression like ?


Did you practice mostly with a big board ? and for how long?

Did you practice at a location with flat water or any condition of the day?

Did you learn it by yourself or with an instructor?

I am at an intermediate level, can plane comfortably, although not always with both feet in the footstraps, and can do Gybes in non planing conditions.

My usual location unfortunately has rarely flat conditions above 15kts so when I try to practice the moves for a planing Gybe, I really struggle to make any progress with the chop and swell.

I would appreciate any advice you might have, thanks.

Manuel7
1205 posts
11 Sep 2023 9:31AM
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Flat water and smooth winds help immensely. Otherwise, it's a matter of balance and timing.

key factors:
- head down wind 45 degrees (maybe a touch less)
- now move rear foot out and turn another 45 degrees
- flip the sail (full downwind)
- turn another 45 degrees
- now back in straps and complete the remaining 45 degrees

During the 90 degree turn we try to balance over basically just the rear foot maintaining constant pressure. Try and play with different positions. I like to have my foot pointing slightly forward.

There's a lot more to it like leaning the sail back, pulling the sail back up and forward, looking where we are going etc. What we need to focus on depends on what we're doing well already.

Subsonic
WA, 2950 posts
11 Sep 2023 11:39AM
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Agree with everything Manuel said. If you can make a trip somewhere with flat water/ 15+knots of steady wind it will greatly improve your chances of success in a shorter space of time. Chop makes it much harder to nail them, even when you know how to do them.


Its not necessarily a case of needing to learn to do them on a big board either, the first ones i planed through were on a smaller board, because it made it easy to do strap to strap, which meant less disturbance to the board whilst carving through the turn.

sailquik
VIC, 6057 posts
11 Sep 2023 3:55PM
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Manuel7 said..
Flat water and smooth winds help immensely. Otherwise, it's a matter of balance and timing.

key factors:
- head down wind 45 degrees (maybe a touch less)
- now move rear foot out and turn another 45 degrees
- flip the sail (full downwind)
- turn another 45 degrees
- now back in straps and complete the remaining 45 degrees

During the 90 degree turn we try to balance over basically just the rear foot maintaining constant pressure. Try and play with different positions. I like to have my foot pointing slightly forward.




Great advice there.

Especially: Turn through 90 degrees, dont try to turn through 180!! bear off and get speed before the 90 Deg. turn.

Learn on a board that carries speed and glide well. Most slalom type boards do that the best. Most medium size free ride boards do well also.

Speed in is your friend (thats why steady wind and flat water really help)

Putting your back foot further forward just behind the other front footstrap helps a lot on most boards to keep the speed and glide. Face your foot forward (more in line with the rail) so you can twist your body more easily.

This is a really old video of mine. A bit different from the usual Step Gybes you see, but it serves me very well on the flattish water that I almost always sail in on my slalom (and also very narrow speed) boards. This also works very well for me in waves on my wave board. :-)

?feature=shared

conradwind
10 posts
11 Sep 2023 3:02PM
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I have the same problem and found that the strap to strap gybe was easier for me on a small board. That's the one I use 100% of the time now.

What really helped me was getting a second hand GoPro, attaching it to the boom, trying to do a lot of gybes and then watching the videos to understand where I was failing. This was a game changer, without that or someone looking at you, it is hard to understand where are you failing because everything goes so fast.

powersloshin
NSW, 1645 posts
11 Sep 2023 6:30PM
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It took me 7 years since I started windsurfing to do planing jibes, I went through two Guy Cribb clinics and some instructional dvds, so I am an expert technically challenged guy.
My tips:
all of the above, and the biggest tip is to flip the sail early so the board maintains speed: once you are dead downwind you have to go for it, all beginners wait too long before flipping the sail, I think they are afraid to move the feet out of the straps while the board is planing.
In chop its harder , bend the knees a lot, and flip while the board has speed

jn1
SA, 2443 posts
11 Sep 2023 8:18PM
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sarwind said..
My usual location unfortunately has rarely flat conditions above 15kts so when I try to practice the moves for a planing Gybe, I really struggle to make any progress with the chop and swell.







What size sail and board are you using BTW ?

Your condition description sounds about normal for everywhere I've sailed. If you're sailing in the sea, then you can use the swell to assist your turn. Start your carve at the very tip of a swell, or just before it. But remember, you are either going up hill or down hill. So, you have to get the timing right to either not go over the next swell (up hill), or time it so you have the speed/power to go over the next one. When I ride bigger gear where I can't avoid going over swell because of the turning angle of the big board, I pump the sail mid gybe to keep board on the plane. When it's messy chop (often is the case at my local), I weave my way through the high chop in order to keep the board going down hill (so to speak). This swell effect is the same on choppy lakes, but not as nearly pronounced. Same principle applies though, but more difficult. If you can practice in the sea, I think you'll pick it up quicker. Good luck.

MobZ
NSW, 217 posts
11 Sep 2023 9:02PM
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With so many excellent videos online now, if you can get footage of yourself you will see your faults compared with what we just saw above from sailquick and self coach.

I was sailing a long raceboard for the past 3 years, getting non-planing gybes sorted and blasting. Now on a JP SLW 165 and getting close to keeping speed right around.
My local spot is flatwater mostly 14-18kts.
Often it seems there is not enough power in it for planing gybes, but again, looking at videos like above makes me think it must be well doable with the right technique.
I have alot of footage of myself from the beach and can see for sure that i flip the sail very late.

I look forward to learning them, it must feel great i imagine.

I heard that only a small percentage of sailors can consistently carve gybe and keep planing I guess that is probably dependent on spot and conditions

Mr Milk
NSW, 2857 posts
11 Sep 2023 10:59PM
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Boards are a bit shorter than they were in the 90s when I cracked gybing on a Bic Veloce 278cm long board (from memory), which reduces the change in angular momentum as you go through the arc. That actually makes it a little harder to get the sail flipped before the board tries to go upwind, so my suggestion is to move the mast foot right to the front of the track.
That will do 2 things for you. It helps keep the board flat on the water so you don't lose speed in the gybe, and coming out of the turn the board won't want to go upwind as much.

sarwind
8 posts
11 Sep 2023 9:48PM
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Thank you everyone, really some good advice there.
I also like the idea of using a GoPro to be able to watch my mistakes..

boardsurfr
WA, 2171 posts
11 Sep 2023 9:49PM
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Do a multi-day windsurfing camp with a great teacher. I always sailed in chop, and never got close to a planing jibe on my own. The first time I planed out of a jibe was in a private lesson, but I rarely not reproduce it afterwards. I eventually took a 5-day ABK Boardsports camp in Bonaire, planed out of jibes after a couple of days, and many times after. I still struggle with incorrect " muscle memory" from many years of trying on my own, so I sometime mess up jibes when I don't concentrate, and the conditions are not great.

I am a slow learner, and there certainly are many windsurfers who learn faster than I do, and can figure it out on their own. But I have also seen many faster learners learning the jibe in windsurf camps, including my wife. Not only did she (and many others) get the planing jibe very quickly, but she does not even know how to mess up jibes (which is my "superpower"). The great instruction she received when learning to jibe is one big reason she's on the #1 spot in the women's ranking on the GPSTC challenge for alpha, hour, and distance.

Depending on where you are in the world, you may have to take a trip to get to a windsurfing camp, but it's a worthwhile investment in future windsurfing fun.

sarwind
8 posts
11 Sep 2023 9:50PM
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jn1 said..


sarwind said..
My usual location unfortunately has rarely flat conditions above 15kts so when I try to practice the moves for a planing Gybe, I really struggle to make any progress with the chop and swell.









What size sail and board are you using BTW ?

Your condition description sounds about normal for everywhere I've sailed. If you're sailing in the sea, then you can use the swell to assist your turn. Start your carve at the very tip of a swell, or just before it. But remember, you are either going up hill or down hill. So, you have to get the timing right to either not go over the next swell (up hill), or time it so you have the speed/power to go over the next one. When I ride bigger gear where I can't avoid going over swell because of the turning angle of the big board, I pump the sail mid gybe to keep board on the plane. When it's messy chop (often is the case at my local), I weave my way through the high chop in order to keep the board going down hill (so to speak). This swell effect is the same on choppy lakes, but not as nearly pronounced. Same principle applies though, but more difficult. If you can practice in the sea, I think you'll pick it up quicker. Good luck.



I am using a 145l freeride board, usually with 5.9 or 7.0 sail

Paducah
2439 posts
12 Sep 2023 2:58AM
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Three things (repeating some of the above)
- Flat water is your friend. Most people crack the code after going someplace flat and breezy. Smaller boards and sails help, too.
- You likely need more speed than you think. Most people starting out are going way too slow. Jibe in the gusts (assuming they aren't insane) not the lulls.
- Bend the ankles (because most people who think they are bending their knees are just sitting back). The more chop, the more you bend.

The marks of a beginning jiber (because we've all been there): Putters into the jibe in a lull. Arms close like T-Rex weight back on the tail of the board. Legs either stiff or sitting back looking like about to sit in a chair. Board runs out of energy about dead downwind. Stares at hands, nose of the board or something else other than the exit. If still on the board, pivots out to a reach in the new direction with no speed.

Marks of the competent jiber: finds a gust and bears off. Front arm extended and knees bent keeping weight forward over the front straps. Flips sail without looking at hands. Finishes off bearing away on the other direction until speed is up and back in the straps and harness.

Of course there's more nuance to these steps and there are plenty of tips above and on youtube videos including how/when to step, the sail flip, etc. A planing jibe is just an amazing amount of fun and you'll be amazed at how much time and energy it saves. Absolutely worth every bit of effort you'll put into it. None of us were born knowing how to do it so keep asking questions if/when you hit a rough patch.

remery
WA, 1730 posts
12 Sep 2023 4:48AM
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Release the sail earlier. Give it a push if you have to.

MarkSSC
QLD, 622 posts
12 Sep 2023 7:01AM
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The important part is that before you enter the gybe, make sure you look and see that where you plan to gybe is clear of other people. Simple safety that is easy to forget but disastrous if someone else is coming up fast behind you.

When you start off, you can try practising the moves on the beach without the rig. It looks a bit strange but will help your muscle memory when everything happens really quickly on the water. Do it over and over again until it becomes natural.

Something else the other seem to have missed is that to successfully carve gybe and maintain speed through the turn, you need to avoid putting too much weight on the back foot in your endeavours to turn the board from there. Too much weight down the back end will wash off lots of speed and often lead to falling in. Obviously, you don't want all your weight forward, but it is the front section of the rail that should drive the carve. Keep the speed up, it is your friend.

aeroegnr
1447 posts
12 Sep 2023 5:28AM
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Paducah said..

Marks of the competent jiber: finds a gust and bears off. Front arm extended and knees bent keeping weight forward over the front straps. Flips sail without looking at hands. Finishes off bearing away on the other direction until speed is up and back in the straps and harness.





At the risk of stating the obvious but maybe it'll help someone with the same issue as me: I had a really hard time getting my front arm extended without a strong sheeting in with the back hand. Then I could extend my front arm. I had some mental block with it (occasionally still), and plenty of room for improvement. I don't know why I wasn't sheeting in harder.

At least my foiling jibes are where I can do several without mishap and keeping speed in, during, and out to fly out of them (after touching down). And that's mostly with a 9.0 or a 7.0.

My feel for fin jibes is still not quite there though. There's a lot more chop and thus more noisy on inputs/feel and a lot more power in the sail. They did improve greatly with stepping my back foot further forward and concentrating on trying to keep my knees bent and upper body forward, but I'm not "feeling" the trim of the board that will keep it planing through the turn like I can on a foil. I think also I've been limited to situations where an 8.0 is barely enough, or a 9.5 is needed on a fin and it's hard to get enough speed to carry it through the turn. Much easier in 6.x wind, but it's not quite the season yet.

Light wind sessions (with either small or big sail, not enough to get planing), and doing the jibes a lot slower but with deliberate movements made a huge difference. Sheeting in hard to get the mast base pressure to push the nose through and enable extending the front arm, getting clew first feel, getting timing with wind direction and associated sail feel, moving old front towards the mast at the start of the flip, etc. all can be done non-planing to perfect little details.

jn1
SA, 2443 posts
12 Sep 2023 8:12AM
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sarwind said..


jn1 said..

What size sail and board are you using BTW ?

Your condition description sounds about normal for everywhere I've sailed. If you're sailing in the sea, then you can use the swell to assist your turn. Start your carve at the very tip of a swell, or just before it. But remember, you are either going up hill or down hill. So, you have to get the timing right to either not go over the next swell (up hill), or time it so you have the speed/power to go over the next one. When I ride bigger gear where I can't avoid going over swell because of the turning angle of the big board, I pump the sail mid gybe to keep board on the plane. When it's messy chop (often is the case at my local), I weave my way through the high chop in order to keep the board going down hill (so to speak). This swell effect is the same on choppy lakes, but not as nearly pronounced. Same principle applies though, but more difficult. If you can practice in the sea, I think you'll pick it up quicker. Good luck.



I am using a 145l freeride board, usually with 5.9 or 7.0 sail



What's your weight and height ? (sorry, I should have asked that as well)

With small riders, freeride/wave sails that big operate on apparent wind in moderate winds. The issue with that is you are planing along and you feel the sail is powered up, but as soon as you go to turn, the sail depowers. So, you either have to do one or more of these: tighten the turn, if sailing in the sea, use the swell like a skateboard ramp (go down hill), pump sail over swell/chop (going up hill to go down hill) to keep board on the plane. The sail (unless it's a small freestyle or wave sail) is going to either be an engine or a brake. So make sure you are engaging the sail (sheeting in) to give the board forward power through out the turn before flipping sail.

sarwind
8 posts
12 Sep 2023 11:59AM
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Select to expand quote
jn1 said..

sarwind said..



jn1 said..

What size sail and board are you using BTW ?

Your condition description sounds about normal for everywhere I've sailed. If you're sailing in the sea, then you can use the swell to assist your turn. Start your carve at the very tip of a swell, or just before it. But remember, you are either going up hill or down hill. So, you have to get the timing right to either not go over the next swell (up hill), or time it so you have the speed/power to go over the next one. When I ride bigger gear where I can't avoid going over swell because of the turning angle of the big board, I pump the sail mid gybe to keep board on the plane. When it's messy chop (often is the case at my local), I weave my way through the high chop in order to keep the board going down hill (so to speak). This swell effect is the same on choppy lakes, but not as nearly pronounced. Same principle applies though, but more difficult. If you can practice in the sea, I think you'll pick it up quicker. Good luck.




I am using a 145l freeride board, usually with 5.9 or 7.0 sail




What's your weight and height ? (sorry, I should have asked that as well)

85kg, 178cm..

thedoor
2170 posts
12 Sep 2023 3:56PM
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check out the video

Jibing with Alan Cadiz if you can find it

MobZ
NSW, 217 posts
12 Sep 2023 6:30PM
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This may not help you, as i am still learning, but here are some gybes missing something..

Having beach footage shows it clearly. gopro, not so much.

I have started going in to the turn as hard as i can, some of that footage went to sendit sunday tv as i went splatBut the ones where i hung on felt nice with more speed.

I will try to flip sail as early as sailquick next time, that should be interesting.

powersloshin
NSW, 1645 posts
12 Sep 2023 8:02PM
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you need to extend the front arm and move your body more forward to keep the board flat and not sink the tail
Seems like you got the last one

jn1
SA, 2443 posts
12 Sep 2023 7:59PM
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MobZ said..
This may not help you, as i am still learning, but here are some gybes missing something..

Having beach footage shows it clearly. gopro, not so much.

I have started going in to the turn as hard as i can, some of that footage went to sendit sunday tv as i went splatBut the ones where i hung on felt nice with more speed.

I will try to flip sail as early as sailquick next time, that should be interesting.



Looks like you are doing pretty good. You'll get there

musorianin
QLD, 572 posts
12 Sep 2023 10:42PM
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MobZ said..
This may not help you, as i am still learning, but here are some gybes missing something..

Having beach footage shows it clearly. gopro, not so much.

I have started going in to the turn as hard as i can, some of that footage went to sendit sunday tv as i went splatBut the ones where i hung on felt nice with more speed.

I will try to flip sail as early as sailquick next time, that should be interesting.



Man, if that's your inner monologue, I think you should get help!

musorianin
QLD, 572 posts
13 Sep 2023 7:46AM
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^^^^^Sorry, just in case it wasn't clear, i was talking about the sound track on the clip! not your post. Btw, i found (and still do) that it is good to focus on getting one thing right at a time when developing a skill. What cracked it for me in gybing (not they i don't still have room to improve) was really focusing on keeping the board carving, this then almost automatically improved my foot work. everyone is different, bit that helped me a lot

MarkSSC
QLD, 622 posts
13 Sep 2023 7:49AM
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powersloshin said..
you need to extend the front arm and move your body more forward to keep the board flat and not sink the tail
Seems like you got the last one


Something I wrote already agrees with what you are saying...
"Something else the other seem to have missed is that to successfully carve gybe and maintain speed through the turn, you need to avoid putting too much weight on the back foot in your endeavours to turn the board from there. Too much weight down the back end will wash off lots of speed and often lead to falling in. Obviously, you don't want all your weight forward, but it is the front section of the rail that should drive the carve. Keep the speed up, it is your friend."

As you rightly point out, his weight is too far back, making the board sink at the back. In this position it always seems like the board is turning but the drag slows stalls the board.

I have reposted this information in the hope that it gets noticed.

MobZ
NSW, 217 posts
13 Sep 2023 10:01AM
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musorianin said..
^^^^^Sorry, just in case it wasn't clear, i was talking about the sound track on the clip!

Ah good, you had me worried there for a minute.
The sound track is out there.
Trying to add music to a youtube vid got a bit wacky, so i randomly plonked in a track by radio head - 'fitter happier'.
I hadn't really listed to it, but now i see atleast one line is fitting "Like a cat
Tied to a stick"
Hopefully my inner monologue shouts "keep the board carving" next sail. But if i feel like a cat tied to stick, that's ok too Cheers.

MobZ
NSW, 217 posts
13 Sep 2023 10:11AM
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MarkSSC said..
you need to avoid putting too much weight on the back foot in your endeavours to turn the board from there.

Got it.
But how? Pushing sail forward, leaning forward. I'll try that in addition to some earlier sail flip attempts next time.
Seems the tail always sinks about rig flip time for me.

Maddlad
WA, 825 posts
13 Sep 2023 10:32AM
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Yep, if you look at the videos of you gybing, you can see that your body and mast are leaning toward the back of the board, which is causing you to stall during the gybe. This also causes you to sharpen up the end of the turn and that drops you off the plane.
Lean forward into the turn and pull down on the boom, as that will level out the board and keep you planing longer, and then make a more gentle curve shape with your steering. As others have said, bear off 90% and then come out of the turn 90* in the other direction, dont do a full 180 from your initial direction as that will stall the gybe.
I hope that makes sense.

28knts
NSW, 70 posts
13 Sep 2023 4:29PM
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Benz the knees, drive forward and look where you want to go. Oh and smile your having fun.

MobZ
NSW, 217 posts
15 Sep 2023 10:44PM
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boardsurfr said..
but she does not even know how to mess up jibes (which is my "superpower"). The great instruction she received when learning to jibe is one big reason she's on the #1 spot in the women's ranking on the GPSTC challenge for alpha, hour, and distance.


Wow, what a problem to have, to not know how to mess one up. Awesome.

remery
WA, 1730 posts
16 Sep 2023 4:24AM
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Very interesting discussion. I learned to windsurf in 1982 but my friends and I were totally focussed on wave sailing asap. All we had to learn from was Windsurf magazine and the movie "Trade wind". We were refining technique all the time and ended up in the same place as everyone else. I hear the instruction from pros and it's the same as we ended up doin, but we learned the hard way over years. Sort of highlights that, like a golf swing, there is basically only one way.



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"Steps to learn a planing Gybe" started by sarwind