Hello,
I have a few questions regarding volume, max width, tail width and the way they correlate to planing.

Please bear in mind that the questions I am asking here below are from the perspective of a 79 kg ( 175 lbs) sailor who has practically completed only the beginners' stage and who wants to move to an intermediate board, with a better planing capability and more manoeuverability than my current 180 lt Starboard Rio. All I want is a board allowing early planing and KEEPING planing easily.I'll never bother with gale-strength winds and racing speeds. I sail on large lakes and only with moderate winds. .
I am torn between two sizes : a 160 lts and a 145 lts as the absolute minimum. Regarding the 160, my only concern is that the difference from a 180 lts may be too marginal . On the other hand, a 145 concerns me for the opposite reason: it may be too much of a jump . I know, those of you who are riding sinkers like 80 lts or 90 lts boards, may not see any problem with a 145 or may even frown upon a 145 as a " boring" board , but for my purposes, it may not be that far off..
In terms of brands, I am considering, in order of priority, the Fanatic Shark, RRD Evolution, Starboard Futura, AHD . Any suggestions or comments?

Having said this, I'd like to know more specifically :

1. For a given volume what is the tail width which offers the best compromise between stability, control/manoeuvarability and early planing? Any brands or models suggested?

2. Would a board with a larger mid-width plane earlier or better than one with a narrower mid-width, for the same weight ?

3, Between tail width and mid-width , which one affects planing more ? By the way, at what distance from the tail-end is tail-width measured ?

4. Does a higher volume board plane earlier or better than a lower volume one?

5. If volume and mid-width affect the planing capability of the board, which one affects it more? Does a higher volume board plane earlier or better than a lower volume one for two sailors of the same skill level?

What is the " planing footprint"?

Please note that in asking the above questions I assume that the boards, for all their different characteristics and dimensions affecting planing, are used by sailors with the same skill level and the same weight. I am certainly aware that even the best boards would not plane at all without a skilled sailor!




Thank you


Francone

a formula board planes in 6 knots

You really need to define for us your concept of what moderate wind is.


A few points though...

At your weight (similar to mine) a 145 is still a big board for a moderate wind (say up to 20kts) and I am certain that your instinct about 160 being too close to 180 is exactly right. If you are looking at sailing in winds up to 15 kts the 145 might be ok for you. That said, if you really grow to love this sport you will find that a 145 is way too big in genuine moderate winds. I think most guys your size would have somewhere between 100 and 120 litres for their moderate (18-22kts) wind board (the larger on flat water).

I myself have (at 75kg):
115 litre freeride for light winds (15+ kts)
103 litre freeride for moderate winds (18-23 kts)
86 litre freewave for strong winds (23-30kts)

But I don't have any boards suitable for cruising along in 10 kt breezes (that's what your Rio is for I guess).

One thing to note however about big boards:
A 145 litre board will be very floaty under your 79 kilos so try an avoid boards of this size with tail rocker (sometimes called tail kick). As you are light a floaty board with tail rocker will tend to suck air under the tail and cause the fin to spin out. I know this from an extended period of wrestling with a 130 litre board that spun out at the drop of a hat. It was the wrong size for me (that is, too big) and it had significant tail kick. My weight wasn't enough to keep the tail sealed at the water's surface.

Put any board you are thinking of buying on the floor of the windsurfing store. Press on the tail and if it flips up a little you have tail kick. I think most big slalom/freeride boards shouldn't have any or only minimal tail kick. I believe my Exocet Scross 115 has none.

1. For a given volume what is the tail width which offers the best compromise between stability, control/manoeuvrability and early planing? Any brands or models suggested?

It all depends on the size of board and intended purpose. This is question is too finely detailed to be of help to you. Boards are designed to suit a purpose. You need to define your purpose better (re winds strength – and sea state). I think you have little chance of assessing a board based on the above parameters.

2. Would a board with a larger mid-width plane earlier or better than one with a narrower mid-width, for the same weight ?

Probably yes – all else being equal.

3, Between tail width and mid-width , which one affects planing more ? By the way, at what distance from the tail-end is tail-width measured ?

Mid width. Tail width is usually measured 30cm forward of the tail.

4. Does a higher volume board plane earlier or better than a lower volume one?

Again yes – all else being equal, but much depends on the designed purpose of the board. A smaller slalom board could well plane earlier that a big wave board.

5. If volume and mid-width affect the planing capability of the board, which one affects it more? Does a higher volume board plane earlier or better than a lower volume one for two sailors of the same skill level?

Mid width with volume a very close second. The bigger, but it will get out of control sooner.

6. What is the " planing footprint"?

The area of board in contact with the water while planing.

I am 95kgs and my BIG board for low/moderate winds is a 130 ltre JP Xcite Ride. I believe that at 75kgs you should be on nothing larger than that. I can uphaul the 130 litre no worries at all and I am still only a one season newbie, crashing my jibes etc.

As your sailing improves you will want small and smaller boards for their lighter livelier feel underfoot.

Basically I think buying a 160 or 145 board is way to big. A modern 130 board or even smaller would be ample for you. I would take the advice of other more experienced sailors who pointed me in this direction 12 twelve months ago.

If you your idea of moderate winds is 11 to 16knots i.e Force 4.

I would get the 145 Litre board, considering the description of the conditions, and your main goal is planning.

I also sail sometimes on an inland lake, at a club. I keep my own board 100L on the coast, which is a big board for its location. But when I sail inland and I want to get planning, AND I think the I wind is strong enough, which it hardly ever is... I Will grab a 144 litre board (futura), and 8.5 metre sail. I weigh 70kg. Otherwise I grab a much smaller board and practise my swimming... and forget about planning.

A board of 145L and sailor of your size should be able to handle a sail up to 9m, before it gets too hard and expensive for where your at. I can and just started this year.

At the club I was referring to the futura/go 133L is the most popular for the conditions followed by 144.

If you trying to improve your planning ability in very marginal conditions a lighter board may help, but don't expect much improvement from your rio, if thats what your after. From a techinical perspetive there is probably a very good reason that there is a maximum width prescribed for formula boards, otherwise they probaby be even bigger than they are.

As someone said you need define what your idea of moderate winds are.

sanding his fins and making up new cool nicknames like backdoorseamen or something

I thank all of you who have commented on my posting.
Regarding ikw 777 reply:

1. My idea of moderate winds is up to 15-16 knts. I have a 5.9 and an 8.5 sail. I wonder what reaction should I expect from a 145 with either sails, in such moderate winds.I'd sure hope it would plane earlier and better than my current Behemoth ( Rio 180 lts), if anything because it would be considerably lighter ( My Rio weighs about 14 kg).

2. Regarding the "Rocker tail" test : I am not too sure what you mean when you say that a board with a " kicker tail" would " flip" by applying pressure on the tail. Is it perhaps because the longitudinal axis of the board is curved , with both the front and the back raised and the board, instead of resting flat on the floor, touches the floor only at one point, i.e. the center of the axis? If this were the case, the board would indeed raise( Flip?) its front by applying pressure on the back. Is this what you mean?

3. As to the comment that that a 145 would be " very floaty" for my weight, I don't think it would be a disadvantage, at least for my wind-speed range, as a " floaty" board would be easier to plane ( all being equal) than a lower volume board which sinks more.

Regarding Ellobuddha's posting :

I would have never believed that at 95 Kg, with a 130 lts board, he does not have any problem in uphauling or lifting up the board on a plane, unless he uses very very large sails or he sails with.... hurricane force winds. At the U.S. Calema site, where they test boards, I have seen close-up pictures of a 100 kg sailor standing on a 130 lts board and you would easiliy see a part of the board under his feet swamped by the water , which is no easy task for the wind to raise up on a plane!

AS to Racer X comment that "If you are trying to improve your planning( read: planing) ability in very marginal conditions a lighter board may help, but don't expect much improvement from your rio" I do not understand what he means by " marginal conditions". Does he mean by "marginal conditions" a low to moderate wind-speed range, with a ceiling of 15-16 Knts ? This is my range. But why at this range I should not expect with a 145 lts any significant improvement as compared to my 180 lts Rio, a lot heavier, to boot?

I'd love your comments and clarifications.

Thank you again

Francone

Starting out Francone forget the finer details of a board just go no less than 120ltrs
freeride(for now)no more than 140ltrs with width of todays models the right sail with matching fin length you can handle for your existing conditions that you feel a little bit overpowered cuz as you advance you'll get more efficient and be able to plane and handle sail easy..reason is i have a friend who's in your same abilities kept on months asking what kind of board to buy, emailed almost everyone and we gave advice and he ended up buying a formula now he has a hard time in choppy water when windy and harder to practice footstraps cuz they're way out..it's good to ask but go with what you can uphaul that's not too tippy in your conditions, sail as much in lite or heavy winds with no complaints.
We weigh the same exactly and with hard practise can make a 110ltr old school board plane in 12kts..as for marginal winds i think it's the wind strength relative to board and sail that makes you plane and sometimes 'schlogg' or plow then back to planing again but that'll be normal as you progress..cheers

I weigh 90Kgs, and my "main" board is a 117 litre, I have a 5,a 6,and 7.2 sails,and have no problem uphauling,( only sail flatwater ). I have another 163 litre board that I hardly ever use, can generally sail nearly all conditions with the 117 L.Hope that is of some use

are you sailing in salt or fresh water

RE;

"Regarding Ellobuddha's posting :

I would have never believed that at 95 Kg, with a 130 lts board, he does not have any problem in uphauling or lifting up the board on a plane, unless he uses very very large sails or he sails with.... hurricane force winds. At the U.S. Calema site, where they test boards, I have seen close-up pictures of a 100 kg sailor standing on a 130 lts board and you would easiliy see a part of the board under his feet swamped by the water , which is no easy task for the wind to raise up on a plane!"


I certainly have no dramas uphauling a 130ltr board or getting it on the plane. The problem can be keeping the board under control when it gets windy as it gets way too bouncy and flares up in chop - obviously this is when it get windier. Its definitely not hard to get on the plane. I own a few sails but my most used size with this board is a 6.6.

Go take a 130 for a ride - you'll be suprised.

I weigh about 98 kg and use a 118 JP super sport + helium 7.5 and can plane in 15 knots - Took me a couple weeks to get used to the balance but can easily uphaul and tack the board now.
When the wind picks up i can drop down to a 6 meter and go blasting on it.
i tried out a 130 xcite ride and found it even easier to get up and going but a little less top end speed.
The 120 boards are small enuf that you can "bounce" them out of the water and up onto the plane fairly easily and is maneuverable enuf you can do big carve gybes :)

personally i think if you already have a 180 for low wind you should be looking at 120 to 130 max as next step. at only 80 kg you will use this for anything from 10 - 25 knots

windsufering said...

a formula board planes in 6 knots

I wonder where you got that idea. It's highly doubtful it was from experience.

Roar said...

I weigh about 98 kg and use a 118 JP super sport + helium 7.5 and can plane in 15 knots -

Another dubious claim IMHO. How do you measure the windspeed? I'm slightly heavier than you and need an 11 meter sail to plane at 15 knots.

Between two boards of the same weight and width , but of different volume,( 135 vs 145 lts) which one, other things being equal, would give a better overall performance for a 79 kg intermediate sailor, in terms of planing and stability?( I am not so interested in speed) . The StarBoard Futura 133 lts and the Tabou Rocket 145 lts have both virtually the same weight ( 8.5 kg) and width ( 76-77 cm)..
Put it in other words, what difference for the better or for the worse ( if any) can a 10 lts volume differential make, other things being equal ? Any comments about either boards?

Thank you

Francone

Ellobuddha said...

RE;

"Regarding Ellobuddha's posting :
At the U.S. Calema site, where they test boards, I have seen close-up pictures of a 100 kg sailor standing on a 130 lts board and you would easily see a part of the board under his feet swamped by the water , which is no easy task for the wind to raise up on a plane!"

xxx
I certainly have no dramas uphauling a 130ltr board or getting it on the plane. The problem can be keeping the board under control when it gets windy as it gets way too bouncy and flares up in chop - obviously this is when it get windier. Its definitely not hard to get on the plane. I own a few sails but my most used size with this board is a 6.6.

Go take a 130 for a ride - you'll be surprised.

For me at 105 kg. I can use my 130 liter old style, narrow board without sinking, but the 125 modern board will make it impossible to slog back to shore in winds under 5 knots. Standing on it trying to uphaul, I see at least two inches covering the board. It's rather amazing what both 5 liters and a radically different shape does for performance. Both boards offer challenges of balance, and using them in light winds helps develop good windsurfing skills. Basically, you develop an ability to sink the tail but still remain afloat in a breeze. The older board does have much more volume in the midsection which makes it better in the light winds. However, the narrow tail precludes any sail bigger than a 7.1 Large sails help with forward motion on the new board, but the added weight and bulk make uphauling near impossible. Having had to swim the board to shore on a few occasions, I will not use it now, unless I am sure of a steady breeze. Given the challenges of light, unsteady winds, you also have to work the gusts to your advantage and can't take a static position on the board. I've been able to gybe both boards in very light winds. It's a trick and a challenge, easier for the older larger board, but that's what keeps me going out!!! When windy, the larger older "poly" board which is rather heavy at 33 lbs sticks to the water better than the light modern equivalents. It's slow, though, and I definitely prefer using my 115 liter older glass board when conditions are too big for the 125, if it can hold the lulls. It will sink otherwise. Nevertheless, the 125 liter Angulo board handles chop pretty well. Often I'll use it with winds in the high 20 m.p.h.'s with a 6.0.

Mark _australia said...

I am 100kg and plane a 115L FSW with a 6.9 in 15 knots (pumping to get there of course but not hard to stay there) so I am sure Roar can do as he claims.

I don't take pumping as a given. I find it too demanding and exhausting to be an effective method for recreational sailing. In addition, I never see steady 15 knot winds and need a lot of sail to power through the long lulls we usually experience.

Francone 10 liters in your case will make it easier to tack and possibly to gybe. You will also possibly be able to use a larger sail on the bigger board. The smaller board will give you an advantage in waves and chop.

nick0 said...

windsufering said...

a formula board planes in 6 knots
...
..

..
they mgiht plane in 6 knots if u are 60kg and use a a 12.5m sail ...in dead flat water ..no chot .. and can run reach across wind for eva

That's what I want to see over on the Banana R. (Calema). A 60 kg guy pumping a 12.5 meter sail in order to get up on a plane in 6 knots.