loose leach held underwater

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grumplestiltskin
grumplestiltskin
WA
2331 posts
WA, 2331 posts
27 Jan 2006 9:43am
Yes I know they have been around for a long time, but I got my first twist off top type of sail this season, a NP SEARCH 5.4

I am reasonably adept at waterstarting, seeing as nearly every gybe ends up with me in the water, but I find with the new sail that once its in the water its really hard to get it out.

Normally if I swing the sail around so the masts into the wind, I can usually flick it up from the boom area, but with this one I, more often than not, have to scoot up to the tip and lift it from there.

Does anyone else find this or am I just a clutz? .... scratch that I know I am a clutz but has anyone else experienced this?
hardman
hardman
1116 posts
1116 posts
27 Jan 2006 10:02am
I could have a ball with the CLUTZ theme, but I'll be kind to you!

The bigger the sail, usually the harder it is! Maybe your expectation is unrealistic, that you want it to come out instantly??

Sometimes it feels like ages before I can get the water off and position myself to rewater start?

I'm sure you know the basics, of water starting, sail positioning, and getting any water off sail etc.

Grumps I think its about your getting old like me, and want everything to be easy!!!! You probably work too hard and don't get enough time on the water!! Get off your ampled sized butt and get sailing down here with other over-weight middle-aged men, and get the buzz!!!!! How far are you from Mandurah?
grumplestiltskin
grumplestiltskin
WA
2331 posts
WA, 2331 posts
27 Jan 2006 10:10am
yeah, too far for it to be a regular

your probably right, this year I've really noticed how bloody unfit I am. the old legs just cant seem to swim as hard as they used to.

However, I've got an older style 6.2 that doesn't seem as hard to get out as the new zone does. Its like it want's to drive itself underwater especially if your are in a reasonable swell.
hardman
hardman
1116 posts
1116 posts
27 Jan 2006 10:21am
Not exactly sure why the 5.4 is harder than the 6.2, maybe those more technically minded like decrepit can answer that?

The biggest impediment to good windsurfing in middle age is lack of fitness. When i'm at At 98kg I huff and puff after 5 - 10 munites, need to have rests, everything seems harder: falling in, water starts, swimming after gear in the surf etc. Now I'm between 90-92 kg's can sail for 2 hours, with regular short breaks, and my recovery capacity is so much better. Realistically I need to get down to about 80-85 and then I'd be A VERY FIT MIDDLE-AGED MAN!

There's lot's of guys our age who rip, but they are a lot fitter than we are. Take Decrepit, he can sail for hours, not an ounce of fat on him and he's (not sure whether he wants his age declared) older than us!
grumplestiltskin
grumplestiltskin
WA
2331 posts
WA, 2331 posts
27 Jan 2006 10:29am
Same here (would like to drop at least 8kg)
however the curse of good food, good wine and tasty beer seem to be my downfall

Next time someone asks me out for a long lunch I'm just gunna turn the bastards down ............................LIKE HELL

the 6.2 is an older style North Convertigo, not a twist top style. I guess I am wondering if the loose top holds the water in, or on whichever is technically correct.
hardman
hardman
1116 posts
1116 posts
27 Jan 2006 10:36am
quote:
Originally posted by grumplestiltskin

Same here (would like to drop at least 8kg)
however the curse of good food, good wine and tasty beer seem to be my downfall

Next time someone asks me out for a long lunch I'm just gunna turn the bastards down ............................LIKE HELL




Yes Food is my biggest downfall, I just love good food, and my wife is a brilliant cook, and she likes to dazzle me with her culinary brilliance, it's all her fault!!!!!! .......... Although she does say to me "Darling I'm not forcing you to have that 3rd helping of Lasagne!", She's trying to pass the responsibility for my obesity back on to me
decrepit
decrepit
WA
12885 posts
WA, 12885 posts
27 Jan 2006 6:57pm
grumps, I was trying to help a young guy waterstart yesterday. Did the usual thing, "ok watch me", -- going out wasn't a problem, flew the sail while standing, but trying to fly it in deep water caused me severe embarressment!! Just wouldn't come out, even had trouble at the end of the mast. I normally don't have this much trouble, mind you on my gear the boom sits on the back of the board, and on his it missed, so that didn't help. His sail was a N.P. fairly flat with stiff battens, my sails have a bit of shape cut into them. Maybe if the initial front edge presented to the wind is foiled, there's more chance of it wanting to fly rather than diving to the bottom. Not sure about this, as the stronger the wind gets, the more it wants to dive.

Ok just had a thought, how does this sound, the diving thing is a result of downwind drift, as the front of the sail is raised drift increases, water pressure on the clew drives the sail under, that's why it's easier with the mast pointing into the wind, and lifting from the tip, clew is no longer pointing in the direction of drift.

Does that help explain the problem???
Probably not!
Haircut
Haircut
QLD
6491 posts
QLD, 6491 posts
27 Jan 2006 9:42pm
don't tell me you bought one of those sails with big luff pockets and plastic things that push on the batterns......they are for sailors over 50 who can't gybe properly or do any tricks!
grumplestiltskin
grumplestiltskin
WA
2331 posts
WA, 2331 posts
27 Jan 2006 8:38pm
Haircut: you idiot, its a NP Search Freestyle Wave sail.


Decrep: Not sure if I'm explaining it right, its not the clew thats diving under, its the tip end.
If I bring the mast around into the wind, normally you can lift it enough near the boom to get a bit of wind under it and then fly it up from there. but with this one I just struggle to get the tip out of the water and need to move up to that end and lift it out from the top.

Its not impossible, just different and because of that frustrating. Guess I will just have to get my head around it with practice.
Haircut
Haircut
QLD
6491 posts
QLD, 6491 posts
27 Jan 2006 10:41pm
Originally posted by grumplestiltskin

Haircut: you lovely person, its a NP Search Freestyle Wave sail.


oh, well thats ok then....we can't have any more of those gps-ahollics taking over, can we
decrepit
decrepit
WA
12885 posts
WA, 12885 posts
27 Jan 2006 9:04pm
What happens with the mast across the wind then???
The standard instruction, is to have the mast across the wind, grab the mast/boom and bring it rapidly across the top of your head, (action similar to pulling the sheet over your head when lying in bed. That should get the tip out, but that's where the clew can go diving and stuff the whole operation up.
grumplestiltskin
grumplestiltskin
WA
2331 posts
WA, 2331 posts
27 Jan 2006 9:28pm
yeah, thats what I'm doing, just the tip seems to hold a lot of water and I struggle to get it out.

I think its just different and I need to get used to it.
Haircut
Haircut
QLD
6491 posts
QLD, 6491 posts
27 Jan 2006 11:38pm
I too notice that some sails seem to have a bit more weight in the tip than others. I have a north 5.4 transam which feels like a feather in the tip, and a new combat of similar size which weighs a ton in comparison. After a couple of days of sailing u tend to get used to the extra weight, and swimming up to the tip to launch seems to be the key

cheers
drjukka
drjukka
QLD
258 posts
QLD, 258 posts
28 Jan 2006 12:44am
Folks
get to the gym

A couple of years ago I decided that my current fitness program was not enough.

I was tipping the scales at about 92kg.

anyway - I decided to get fit and join the gym. Was taking pills every day to deal with arthritis in my knee - from 15+ years of Aussie rules

I was cycling 3x per week and thought I was OK.

Had my assessment (body fat % and fitness etc..m blood pressure etc. - not a great story).

Anyway, was motivated and kept at it for 6 months, and when I had my next assesment - I felt great.

My weight was the SAME .

But body fat had been halved. For every kg of fat I had lost I had put on a kg of muscle.

Fitness ++, Strength++

Arthritis - be gone!!!

Strength - big improvement. I can now lift that multi cammed sail with 20+ kg of water in the luff pocket out of the water.

My message is to try a weights and aerobic program that is different - some cross training really helps. (find a really good professional - and stick to the program - it is hard work for a while)

Weight depends on fat or muscle - don't get too hung up on it.

Anyway - my sailing has improved cos I am stronger and fitter in the right muscle groups.

- Dr J

papac
papac
WA
65 posts
WA, 65 posts
28 Jan 2006 5:32am
Hi I have a Search 5.8 and don't really have a problem water starting. These sails are quite full so it should fly up... is it rigged right? As mentioned earlier if you pull the sail quickly over the board that should free it. Also for shorter board hold the rear strap with one hand and rest the boom on the arm. I use these technique on my 7.5 v8 which has massive leech twist.
ducati
ducati
QLD
474 posts
QLD, 474 posts
28 Jan 2006 10:07am
geeeezz Grumple looks as if ya might have to stick to the old sail with shorter boom or maybe one of them floaty things on the boomend........screw drjukka's getting fit caper
decrepit
decrepit
WA
12885 posts
WA, 12885 posts
28 Jan 2006 7:07pm
Had a look at a zone today, and it's the same as the sail I had trouble with yesterday. Checked the film thickness in the head, and it felt thicker than the foot film of my Dr X, the head of the Dr X is much thinner. So that may be the answer.
Haircut
Haircut
QLD
6491 posts
QLD, 6491 posts
28 Jan 2006 9:12pm
could some of you r old sails have tubular batterns and not solid batterns? I'd imagine this would make a difference.
nebbian
nebbian
WA
6277 posts
WA, 6277 posts
28 Jan 2006 11:16pm
quote:
Originally posted by grumplestiltskin

yeah, thats what I'm doing, just the tip seems to hold a lot of water and I struggle to get it out.



Or is your mast perhaps leaking water past the bung? Does the mast feel heavier than it normally does, or can you tip water out of the mast when you're derigging the sail? I'd pull the bung out and see how much water is inside the mast.

Perhaps the bung failed at the same time as you were trying the new sail...

I dunno just an idea.
ducati
ducati
QLD
474 posts
QLD, 474 posts
29 Jan 2006 10:06am
......yeah good point Ben
I bought a sailworx mast 2yago where the top half goes inside the bottom half for storage, thus no bung in the lower half,
which is ok until ya come a gutsa and the board turns upside down, hey presto half a mast full and no bouyancy.
I soon whacked a bung up mine mast
grumplestiltskin
grumplestiltskin
WA
2331 posts
WA, 2331 posts
29 Jan 2006 10:39am
Thanks for all the tips guys,

no its not the mast, works fine with the other sails.

the more I think about it, the more I just think its just different to the others and therefore needs to be handled different.

As Hardie said at the beginning, need to get out on the water more often to get fit and get used to the sail.
Combs
Combs
WA
152 posts
WA, 152 posts
29 Jan 2006 12:23pm
An old fitness message from long ago "Get fit to play sport, not get fit playing sport". I will really have to remember that and get some use out of that home gym and the running shoes I brought a while back.
Haircut
Haircut
QLD
6491 posts
QLD, 6491 posts
29 Jan 2006 8:36pm
one thing i found with windsurfing - for the first 12 months you get fit and lose weight quick, then you get better at it and do things more efficiently, and you get fat again
Kremlin
Kremlin
418 posts
418 posts
31 Jan 2006 7:14am
Grumps,
While the NP SEARCH is a pure wave sail it has been designed for the 'bigger'sailor and so has a slightly deeper look and feel to it.
As a result it tends to catch a little more water BUT provides plenty of bottom end grunt to get big guys up and powering sooner.

Try grabbing the mast just below your boom and with your other hand holding the back strap of the board (arms crossed over with boom arm on top) pull the mast onto your board arm. (uncross your arms)
This helps get the sail out of the water and get the wind underneath it.
I have been using the SEARCH for around 6 years now and find this technique works very well with a short board where the boom head is way past the back of the board
grumplestiltskin
grumplestiltskin
WA
2331 posts
WA, 2331 posts
31 Jan 2006 9:34am
thanks comrade, that sound reasonable.

With previous boards I did rest the boom on the back of the board, but now have a new shorter board and the boom does sit past the back, so resting it on the arm is probably a good option.

and yes unfortunately I fall into that larger sailor category
hardman
hardman
1116 posts
1116 posts
31 Jan 2006 10:26am
quote:
Originally posted by grumplestiltskin



and yes unfortunately I fall into that larger sailor category



Only Large? I would have said at least XXL!
grumplestiltskin
grumplestiltskin
WA
2331 posts
WA, 2331 posts
31 Jan 2006 12:57pm
That hurts, that really hurts
Kremlin
Kremlin
418 posts
418 posts
1 Feb 2006 12:20pm
Yo Comrade Hardman... you have lost much weight yes ?
Windsurfing is now better since dipping below tripple figures yes ?

You follow Russian Maffia diet of salted fish with vodka to loose weight yes ?

Grumps, SEARCH very powerfull sail, downside of deeper luff is far outweighed by performance.
You can also try down hauling to maximum setting to help loosen out the top of the sail. In fact I rig all mine (4.7 + 5.4 + 6.2) to maximum downhaul what ever wind stregth and they just lurve it.

Also forgot to mention, if the sail still doesnt want to break free of the water with your arms crossed over and holding the mast and back of board, you can sink the back of the board slightly and then let the bouyancy help lift the mast.
Just a word of warning if you sink it too far and the wind is strong it can get under the front of the board and blow the whole board and rig over your head !
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