mast stiffness

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goofy
goofy
WA
162 posts
WA, 162 posts
23 Jan 2007 9:13am
Can anyone tell me how much difference the mast stiffness has on a sail's performance, I recently bought a 5.0 north voodoo which just doesnt feel right. I only have one mast which has a rating of 21 and the voodoo is recommended to use 18 - 20, will 1 point difference have much affect? I also have a north rave and a zeta which both rig up and sail beautifully on that mast.
Pugwash
Pugwash
WA
7733 posts
WA, 7733 posts
23 Jan 2007 9:37am
Tough topic. Curve character is also very important.

Generally, a softer (or shorter) mast makes the rig more flexible (more twist or collapse in the head). A soft mast can make handling easier in high winds and make it easier to close the slot.

Stiffer masts are opposite. Sail handling might not be as good near upper wind limit. With a stiffer mast, the sail is more rigid and geared toward light wind, it will go upwind better.

Wave and Zeta, they are models which are several seasons old Voodoo a newer model Perhaps North have made some changes to masts for which the sails were designed
Mark _australia
Mark _australia
WA
23685 posts
WA, 23685 posts
23 Jan 2007 10:18am
www.peterman.dk/windsurf-mast-article-gb01.htm

worth a looook
stonesurf
stonesurf
WA
77 posts
WA, 77 posts
23 Jan 2007 3:46pm
fat or skinny mast
mineral1
mineral1
WA
4564 posts
WA, 4564 posts
23 Jan 2007 4:48pm
Mark_Australia. If I had read this a while back, I would have taken up kite surfing What a lot of stuff to absorb, no wonder people are not that keen to venture into the sport. A simple swallow of a shops jargon and you could end up stuck with mast that fit bugger all else except the "prescribed sails" Expensive to change over and maybe stuck with a brand your not happy with
Lucky for me I am on par with "Eddie the Eagle" of windsurfing, buy old mast and sail stuff and cant get into too much trouble. re huge bucks
still hobbling-Mineral
Mark _australia
Mark _australia
WA
23685 posts
WA, 23685 posts
23 Jan 2007 7:06pm
No it is really not complex. It is a pity that the manufacturers will not implement a system that incorporates bend charcteristics not just stiffness (better than IMCS). Now without starting a flame war again.... that is one of the reasons I don't like the bigger sail manufacturers as per a recent thread. The majors make you buy THEIR mast. The minors want you to buy a sail at all costs so they make a sail that works ona common mast ie a Powerex skinny has about 5 brands designed for it. A NP has just one, and 90% of sails will set crap on their mast.

It really is quite easy, you need a shop u can trust and a couple more knowledgable fellas (or sheilas) to ask. ALL people should be forced to read that article I reckon, just before they go from a big board to an intermediate.....
Gestalt
Gestalt
QLD
14968 posts
QLD, 14968 posts
23 Jan 2007 10:02pm
quote:
Originally posted by Mark _australia

No it is really not complex. It is a pity that the manufacturers will not implement a system that incorporates bend charcteristics not just stiffness (better than IMCS). Now without starting a flame war again.... that is one of the reasons I don't like the bigger sail manufacturers as per a recent thread. The majors make you buy THEIR mast. The minors want you to buy a sail at all costs so they make a sail that works ona common mast ie a Powerex skinny has about 5 brands designed for it. A NP has just one, and 90% of sails will set crap on their mast.

It really is quite easy, you need a shop u can trust and a couple more knowledgable fellas (or sheilas) to ask. ALL people should be forced to read that article I reckon, just before they go from a big board to an intermediate.....



completely agree. i always spend the extra on powerex masts because of that fact. or rebadged powerex masts.
Crash Landing
Crash Landing
NSW
1173 posts
NSW, 1173 posts
23 Jan 2007 11:13pm
Mark_australia, that's a very interesting, if somewhat dry, article. It explains a lot about why my Arrows sail sets so badly on the NP 460 mast I have. It is mega floppy in the leach to the 3rd batten but majorly over rotated at the bottom 2 battens - so much so that I have to crack it round like a race sail.

Surely the retailers that sell these masts should know it won't work for anything but NP sails?
Mark _australia
Mark _australia
WA
23685 posts
WA, 23685 posts
23 Jan 2007 9:31pm
Yeah that's why I said it should be mandatory reading. I'd like to see the shops stick it up on their wall. (Dare you all!)
I'd also like to see the manufacturers tell us what their masts are, cos no sail manufacturer makes their own masts, they ring one of two or 3 factories and get a "standard" powerex or no limitz rebadged, or get a whole new design made to their specs.
No secret an Ezzy RDM is No Limitz (even the supplied shim has no limitz on it) or a Simmer RDM is Powerex. Would be nice if ALL of them told us!!! Would have saved me some grief many moons ago as a grommet buying el cheapo wherever I could, got some real dogs that I thought were streteched sails ... or course they weren't
decrepit
decrepit
WA
12885 posts
WA, 12885 posts
23 Jan 2007 9:33pm
quote:
Originally posted by Crash Landing


Surely the retailers that sell these masts should know it won't work for anything but NP sails?



Well certainly some of them do, and will tell you straight up, but the example I'm thinking of won't sell Pryde gear.

If you've got a store full of Pryde masts, most salesman will try to sell them, that's their job.
So when asking advice from a salesman, no matter what you're buying, take his vested interests into account when making a decision.
Crash Landing
Crash Landing
NSW
1173 posts
NSW, 1173 posts
24 Jan 2007 10:54am
To be fair to the retailer that sold me a 460 NP mast, I asked him the following question in regards to a new purchase:

"it's windy, i need a cheap 460cm mast, what have you got?".

Looking back I should have said:

"it's windy but I can wait a couple of days to get the right mast that will work perfectly with my 7m sail, what would you recommend?".
Kremlin
Kremlin
418 posts
418 posts
24 Jan 2007 12:18pm
Comrades
I have using a north viper 100% carbon wave mast with range of pryde wave sails (Search, Alpha & Combat)
This mast he work very well with these sails...
I also have use Pryde wave mast in Naish Force and Ezzy wave sail... he rig very well on both also
Maybe I just lucky with sails I try with mast/s and same same for masts with sails yar ?
I also use north viper in north vodoo sail... he not liking the sail and set very very poor, this is mast and sail combo from same manufacturer.
I not saying ALL will be working like this... just to be saying that SOME will work when crossing of brands, some will NOT and some will be sub standard when using same brand of mast to sails.
This not sales pitch, this just recount of actual events and my opinion as based on this happening of
Most shops are offering of the demo... is wise for trying before buying for certain.
Also maybe you have comrades who using other gear ? We often swapping of the components to see what they are like. If sailing comrade say his ,mast, sail, rig, boom, fin is very good we trying of each others kit. If kit perform well he go to top of list for next time gear is needing of the replacement or being broken.

This not just working for mast and sails but for everything yar.
I recently try new board (Angulo Chango) I use my normal/favourite fin for conditions so when I testing of the board it is just 1 factor that is new for trying, ok
If I try new board with new fin there is easy mixing up of how it performs. Same same if I demo new sail.. .I rig on my mast and boom so I can be telling exactly how it perform on its ownsome not with other factors for effecting of the performance
Comrade Mark is right when saying asking of the sailing comrades... if they very highly rating of equipment asking of them why and then maybe for trying. Just word of the warning though... when trying comrades kit, if you break it or bend it you are buying of it for certain yar
Pugwash
Pugwash
WA
7733 posts
WA, 7733 posts
24 Jan 2007 4:04pm
quote:
Originally posted by Mark _australia

Yeah that's why I said it should be mandatory reading. I'd like to see the shops stick it up on their wall. (Dare you all!)
I'd also like to see the manufacturers tell us what their masts are, cos no sail manufacturer makes their own masts, they ring one of two or 3 factories and get a "standard" powerex or no limitz rebadged, or get a whole new design made to their specs.
No secret an Ezzy RDM is No Limitz (even the supplied shim has no limitz on it) or a Simmer RDM is Powerex. Would be nice if ALL of them told us!!! Would have saved me some grief many moons ago as a grommet buying el cheapo wherever I could, got some real dogs that I thought were streteched sails ... or course they weren't



It would be very nice if we were told bend character as well as stiffness, let alone what masts from what other brands are compatible, or EVEN the same.

Badging. I am not sure whether masts made in the same factory are actually exactly the same when badged differently. This was my original thinking. I heard a different story from someone at the beach recently... this went along the lines of the carbon composite manufacturer making 3 to 5 examples of each mast at the the start of the production run, and the sail manufacturer choosing the best one for full production...

goofy
goofy
WA
162 posts
WA, 162 posts
24 Jan 2007 5:47pm
Hey stonesurf, its a fat mast, an older 430 NP C30 imcs 21 constant curve or so it says, the voodoo sail has a luff of 432-435 and the recommended mast for the is a viper wave 400, viper 75/400.

Kremlin if your voodoo doesnt rig well on your viper what mast do you use with it? It seems not many other brands will rig well on NP masts, maybe I was just lucky with my other sails, any ideas what mast would work with this sail,,.

Cheers Jon
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