Forums > Windsurfing   Gps and Speed talk

First look 2013 KA Koncept speed sails

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Created by sailquik > 9 months ago, 4 Oct 2012
sailquik
VIC, 4450 posts
4 Oct 2012 10:28PM
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I helped unload the container today and picked up my new 2013 Koncepts. All the way back to Sandy Point there was a 20-25 knots WSW wind. As soon as I unloaded and started to rig up the wind died out! That Murphy fella has a lot to answer for!

Anyhow, I rigged the 5m and 5.8m on the grass to check them out and start learning how to tune them. They looked fantastic right out of the box. Here are some pics:

5.8m

5.0m





5.0m






Looks like there could be a nice breeze tommorrow. Fingers crossed!

kato
VIC, 2423 posts
4 Oct 2012 11:07PM
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Nice, mine arrive Saturday . Not sure about the bricks???? might effect the performance

ned321
39 posts
4 Oct 2012 9:16PM
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Funny to see you also discovered bricks are the best rigging help EVER.
Can't do without them. I always take about 50 pcs with me: 1 for rigging, and 49 for spares

DaniS
91 posts
4 Oct 2012 10:11PM
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Look really nice!
Are they rigged on SDM or RDM mast?
Thanks,
Dani.

sailquik
VIC, 4450 posts
5 Oct 2012 12:38AM
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DaniS said...
Look really nice!
Are they rigged on SDM or RDM mast?
Thanks,
Dani.



5m on RDM, 5.8m on SDM, just because they were the cams that came in it. Couldn't be bothered hunting around for other cams. Yeah, I know I'm slack. Just impatient I guess.

I can rig sails perfectly well without bricks, I just don't seem to be able to take photos of the sails without them. I know it's yet another serious character flaw, but be assured I am not really working on it!

AUS4
NSW, 974 posts
5 Oct 2012 8:57AM
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Looks like they need another 4 inches of downhaul.

sailquik
VIC, 4450 posts
5 Oct 2012 9:23AM
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AUS4 said...
Looks like they need another 4 inches of downhaul.



mr love
VIC, 1714 posts
5 Oct 2012 2:46PM
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Dani, the 4.2, 4.6 and 5.0 come standard with RDM cams, 5.8 and above with SDM cams. The cams are interchangable so you can run any size with either. Generally we would advise RDM on the 3 smaller sizes with 5.8 being fine on either. 6.2 and 6.6 rig on a 430 and you may see some subtle performance gains on an SDM, that said I ran my 6.6 on an RDM all last season and felt it was quite satisfactory. All the larger sizes we would definitely advise an SDM but it is physically possible to use an RDM.
I like the idea of being able to run with a quiver of RDM masts to 430 which I can also use in my Wave sails and then having the larger masts, 460 and above SDM for the best performance in the bigger Race gear.

yoyo
WA, 1602 posts
5 Oct 2012 1:18PM
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looks like they are evolving nicely.

1.) Do they (well the 5.0 anyway) work on any other brand masts? Severne? /Pryde?

2.) Has anyone used the 4.0 (2011)? Was it any better than the 4.4 in a gale or was it too small and twitchy

I note the specs are the same as 2012. Any other changes apart from the clear X-ply in the luff pocket?

issac
NSW, 17 posts
5 Oct 2012 5:13PM
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doent the bricks ding your board when you jibe

mr love
VIC, 1714 posts
5 Oct 2012 7:13PM
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Yoyo, Sail design is optimised for a Mast curve of 13.5% + or- a bit . Every one of our masts are measured and they have all been in the 13's. Koncepts due to relatively low luff curve as far as race sails go have been less mast sensitive than most however to answer the last question at the same time the luff round has increased for 2013 (more noticably on the small speed specialised sizes) so they are going to be a bit fussier re mast curve. So yes they will work on other brand masts with compatible curves probably in the range of 12.5 to 14 and a bit. The closer you get to 13.5 the better.
2013-- outline the same as 2012 when we did the big changes but luff curves altered and seam shaping revised, more shape in the lower and the negative shaping in the top revised to tune twist. Aim was more profile down low in the speed sizes to provide drive when deep downwind. Also to help them work better on RDM,s as they tended to rig flatter at boom height on skinny's. We all love running RDMs on the speed course, more confidence that they will survive the big off's at 40+ knots!!!!
Not sure the boom lengths are 100% the same , need to check as from memory we increased the stepped clew a little bit, but I might be dreaming.
And of course there are new sizes allowing a better choice for varying rider weights.

A few guy's used their 4.0's last year, would need to be a cyclone for my f..t a..se to need one!!!

sailquik
VIC, 4450 posts
6 Oct 2012 4:39PM
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Mat, Amac and I have used the 4m sails a bit. Mat actually commented to me recently that once he feels it is too windy for the 5.0m he has been going straight to the 4.0m and skipping the 4.4m. His reason was that if he could get going easy enough with the 4.0m it was faster on really good conditions. I noticed AMac used the 4.0m one day last year when I was on the 4.4m and he set pretty much the same speeds as me. I recon Mat has got a good point. My problem is that I have not got enough time on the 4.0m to get it tuned exactly to my liking. I think I have it sorted now but need a 40 knots day to prove it (we always need a 40 knots day I guess! )

The 4.0m is certainly not twitchy. The boom is only a couple of cm shorter than the older 4.4m's and this was deliberate. It can be set will plenty of depth and trimmed flatter with out haul. We found it works better on stiffer masts and was actually designed with bottom cut 370 RDM masts in mind as there are so few 340's around.

There were some changes in 2012. The 2011 was RDM only with standard SDM cams. 2012 uses RDM cams although I think I have a SDM cam in the top.

In Sandy Point speed conditions the 4.0m is usable for us 73-75Kg guys from about 35+ knots up on small speed boards.

This is the 2011 one rigged on shortened 370 RDM

kato
VIC, 2423 posts
6 Oct 2012 8:41PM
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Rigged one of mine while watching the V8 shootout. 6.6 on a RDM and now i,ve got ichy feet. Wind now please. I,ll set up the 5.8 tomorrow. These will look very nice with the Green CA Rocket

sailquik
VIC, 4450 posts
6 Oct 2012 11:12PM
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Nice!
Looks like you got that extra down haul just right!

Nynaa, nynaa. I got to sail my 6.6m yesterday! It was REALLY sweet on the RDM. I think you wil like it a LOT!

kato
VIC, 2423 posts
7 Oct 2012 12:00PM
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sailquik said...
Nice!
Looks like you got that extra down haul just right!

Nynaa, nynaa. I got to sail my 6.6m yesterday! It was REALLY sweet on the RDM. I think you wil like it a LOT!


and the Anvil works better than a brick

Bonominator
VIC, 5477 posts
7 Oct 2012 8:35PM
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Not an extra 4 inches of downhaul / Sulo Bin Prop / leeward side view very nice.



sick_em_rex
NSW, 1582 posts
7 Oct 2012 9:01PM
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geez Ado, ever heard of a mower mate!!!!

Jezstrt
TAS, 1469 posts
7 Oct 2012 10:22PM
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A they all rigged to the specs specified on the sail?

Bonominator
VIC, 5477 posts
7 Oct 2012 10:24PM
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sick_em_rex said...
geez Ado, ever heard of a mower mate!!!!


LOL! Only two weeks growth!

Bonominator
VIC, 5477 posts
7 Oct 2012 10:28PM
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Jezstrt said...
A they all rigged to the specs specified on the sail?


Specs? I don't do that! But it's on the right KA mast and downhauled to the base. The rest is how it looks & feels...mostly

Jezstrt
TAS, 1469 posts
7 Oct 2012 11:32PM
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Bonominator said...
Jezstrt said...
A they all rigged to the specs specified on the sail?


Specs? I don't do that! But it's on the right KA mast and downhauled to the base. The rest is how it looks & feels...mostly


Mmmm ok

Becuase i know with my 2012 races from 5.5-7.1 rigged on KA SDM masts, i gave the 6.3 an extra 1cm and the 5.5 and 7.1 i gave an extra 2cm to what was printed on the sail for the luff length. Yer agree on going with feel and look but was just wondering if you and the guys that put pics up of their sails went with what was printed on the sails for recommended settings or if you used different settings and if so what they were?

Got a couple of 2013 koncepts for this year, so was just interested

mr love
VIC, 1714 posts
8 Oct 2012 8:09AM
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Jezstrt, I rigged a 2013 6.2 yesterday on an RDM. Was spot on for luff length, set to spec with about a 2cm gap between pulleys and the boom was close ( varies a bit between top and bottom ferrule)
Also rigged a 2013 7.1 Race on a KA SDM. Again luff was spot on but I was nearly block to block. I think when it stretches in a bit I will be 1 hole longer which sounds like where you are with your 2012 Races.
Start with the printed spec and then tune.NB you will get some small variation depending on your mast and on your extension. I was using a KA RDM, KA boom and Chinook extension.

Jezstrt
TAS, 1469 posts
8 Oct 2012 11:37AM
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mr love said...
Jezstrt, I rigged a 2013 6.2 yesterday on an RDM. Was spot on for luff length, set to spec with about a 2cm gap between pulleys and the boom was close ( varies a bit between top and bottom ferrule)
Also rigged a 2013 7.1 Race on a KA SDM. Again luff was spot on but I was nearly block to block. I think when it stretches in a bit I will be 1 hole longer which sounds like where you are with your 2012 Races.
Start with the printed spec and then tune.NB you will get some small variation depending on your mast and on your extension. I was using a KA RDM, KA boom and Chinook extension.


Yer I was rigging my races on the KA SDM masts, KA Boom/Chinook boom and Chinook extensions. I'll also be running my new koncepts on the same setup, although I have a new larger KA alu boom coming as well, so looking forward to seeing what that's like compared to the smaller carbon one I have

I've got a 6.2 and 5.4 koncept coming for this year, but will be running them on SDM masts, may try the 5.4 on a RDM at some stage, as I have a 400 mast that has a mast curve of 13.5 %. I'm keeping the 7.1 race for the lighter days.

Thanks for the advice

Jez

Spotty
VIC, 1265 posts
8 Oct 2012 8:41PM
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AUS4 said...
Looks like they need another 4 inches of downhaul.

.
On the very first run I did with my 2013 5.4 Koncept at Sandy Pt I had it rigged the same way and did 48. So with an extra 4 inches change in downhaul, which is a mother load from where it's set in all these pics, the ratio of change in performance would be so massive that I surely would of totally smashed and sunk the WR for good

Seriously 1" would have that leech getting pretty loose and flatten out the lower section below the boom defeating the purpose of such a sail. Sure it will work like that if it's cranking and your running tight back and forth and don't want to change down.

Loose leeches and numbers on a sail are a guide when rigging and change over the sails life, more so in its first several uses. One of the biggest inputs into how a rig performs and feels is how well the user is able to tune the sail to what feels and performs right for the them and the conditions. Such skill is acquired over time and learnt by playing around with settings and learning from others with similar kit.

The Koncept leech looks very suttle sitting still, but actively works under load without flapping back and forth erratically, it should look stable and under control twisting off when required. Sure you can over downhaul it to look like other sails but remember not all sails are designed or perform same.

AUS4
NSW, 974 posts
9 Oct 2012 9:05AM
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Why cant you guys take some advise, I am not criticising KA only the way it was rigged. Kato and Adrian can rig the sail right, maybe Daffy can look at that. I am not talking about floppy leeches Spotty I am talking about the profile below the boom including the loose luff pocket below the boom. When your mast is under load it bends side ways and will tighten the leech, I didnt think I had to tell you guys that, you dont sail on the grass do you. Hey, but its your regatta. Happy sailing.

Bonominator
VIC, 5477 posts
9 Oct 2012 9:25AM
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AUS4 said...
Why cant you guys take some advise, I am not criticising KA only the way it was rigged. Kato and Adrian can rig the sail right, maybe Daffy can look at that. I am not talking about floppy leeches Spotty I am talking about the profile below the boom including the loose luff pocket below the boom. When your mast is under load it bends side ways and will tighten the leech, I didnt think I had to tell you guys that, you dont sail on the grass do you. Hey, but its your regatta. Happy sailing.


Yeah some good points there Rick. Andrew's Koncept luff does look loose on the windward side. My understanding is that if it were really tight and because of the Koncept's deep draft, it would impede smooth rotation of cams but more importantly, affect how deep the draft can be down low because the luff is in too much tension. Look at my photos of the leeward side which is really smooth. That's what's critical. A tight luff may work on a slalom or race sail, such as a Pryde RS or Severne Code Red, but these sails are not designed for pure speedsailing, especially in the smaller sizes and that's why they end up being so flat and why you need to use larger sizes to speedsail effectively. We're just playing a different hand with the Koncept to achieve the same end. As speedsailors we're more interested in efficiency and power when sailing broad than sail area and masses of twist. We want all of the sail working when going broad, not just the bottom 2/3.

sailquik
VIC, 4450 posts
9 Oct 2012 8:50PM
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AUS4 said...
Why cant you guys take some advise, I am not criticism KA only the way it was rigged. Kato and Adrian can rig the sail right, maybe Daffy can look at that. I am not talking about floppy leeches Spotty I am talking about the profile below the boom including the loose luff pocket below the boom. When your mast is under load it bends side ways and will tighten the leech, I didn't think I had to tell you guys that, you don't sail on the grass do you. Hey, but its your regatta. Happy sailing.



Always open to good, reasoned suggestions Rick.
I rigged those sails how I will probably use them for speed, very broad off the wind. I have found through experience that, unless I am really overpowered (in which case I usually switch down a size), deeper below the boom is faster. The 5m is was rigged on an RDM mast and I might look at a couple of cam spacers to pull the luff a but tighter, but I would not do that unless I felt the shape of the sail would benefit from it. I don't find any other reason to deal with a very minor cosmetic matter like a few small wrinkles on the windward side of the luff where they have zero negative affect on performance. If setting the sail that way gives me a faster speed on the strip, that's how I will set it.
I still have a bit of experimentation to do when I get these sails on the water, so I will try your suggestion and report on what I find.

Cheers, Andrew

'The older I get, the better I was'

mr love
VIC, 1714 posts
9 Oct 2012 11:15PM
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These smaller speed sizes are really optimised for true deep downwind speed sailing. They are really full and powerful in the lower section of the sail . Some of the guy,s sail them with a bit less downhaul than you would a race sail for slalom racing. They also sail a bit smaller so are trying to get maximum drive and efficiency from a smaller sail. The lighter PiT Crew guy's like Andrew have found they are quicker on a smaller sails rigged very fat like this.
The sail will respond really well to more downhaul , twist off progressively and flatten out in the entry down low but is always going to be pretty beefy at boom height, it,s designed that way. I myself will sail bigger and crank on more downhaul, generally a meter bigger than Andrew, but until I go faster than him I am not going pick on anything he does!!!!! ( He does need to put a cam spacer in though)
For 2013 they have more shape and luff curve so I think the guy's will find they are running higher downhaul tensions than in previous years. Unfortunately we just didn't get enough really good days at Sandy Point this Winter to figure out the optimum trim on the prototype sails for true downwind 'World record" type speed sailing, but all the indicators are that the sails are going to be really fast.
Spotti did a 48peak on a day when most people didn't bother rigging due to the crap conditions!!!!
We can't wait for a good day!!! Bring it on.

pepe47
WA, 1202 posts
16 Oct 2012 11:03AM
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I was looking at the ka website and couldn't find an 8.5m for 2013, they are being made this year aren't they? I can feel an early xmas present coming on.

sailquik
VIC, 4450 posts
16 Oct 2012 2:50PM
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pepe47 said...
I was looking at the ka website and couldn't find an 8.5m for 2013, they are being made this year aren't they? I can feel an early xmas present coming on.


There is supposed to be an 8.5m and a 9.5m Koncept. They are in the order worksheet we received a while back.

2013 8.5m specs = Luff 501, Boom 228, correct Mast 490/29.

It may be that they just don't have stock of that particular size yet.



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"First look 2013 KA Koncept speed sails" started by sailquik