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How to make Australia Great Again?

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Created by Macroscien A week ago, 11 Aug 2019
Macroscien
QLD, 4717 posts
11 Aug 2019 8:51AM
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Can we one day find a sponsor to dig a channel? Obviously, Australia may have the advantage of moderate climate and peaceful, safe environment.All we need is a digger and to find the best spot to dig,What would be the best spot in Australia to dig a channel ( taking into account existing natural condition, weather and winds ) ?

www.facebook.com/jacques.vanderhout/videos/vb.601737993/10152817059502994/?type=2&video_source=user_video_tab




AusMoz
QLD, 1090 posts
11 Aug 2019 10:24AM
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Macro

You find & buy the piece of land/property suitable and I am prepared to buy/Sponsor you a shovel to dig it out.

izaak
TAS, 1921 posts
11 Aug 2019 4:27PM
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Count me in. But no doubt someone Out there, to try put a stop to it Few places I know that'd be ideal

Then again, wind seems to be a rare occurrence here last few seasons!

decrepit
WA, 9285 posts
11 Aug 2019 3:42PM
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The seabreeze up north here can get fairly strong, 40kts not too uncommon, it's digging the channel where the land is flat enough to get clean air, that would be the problem.

Imax1
VIC, 2120 posts
11 Aug 2019 5:53PM
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Sandy point doesn't need a channel , just remove those pesky sand dunes.

kato
VIC, 2517 posts
11 Aug 2019 6:29PM
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Imax1 said..
Sandy point doesn't need a channel , just remove those pesky sand dunes.



Still good on Friday But , what I could do with a scraper

MikeyS
VIC, 1439 posts
11 Aug 2019 8:00PM
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Imax1 said..
Sandy point doesn't need a channel , just remove those pesky sand dunes.


You mean, get rid of that pesky introduced grass that's stabilising the dunes.

Macroscien
QLD, 4717 posts
11 Aug 2019 9:50PM
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The problem I could see: The most wind have Tasmania and SA / Perth, Kato place is also good at times.But channel should be in nice , tropical location to be in use whole year.I could see that the most wind in Queensland enjoy some small islands nearby. Surprisingly on my weekender backyard outback land ( near Dalby) wind today is excelling. Cattle are flying ( almost) So if there is flat land 300 km of the sea, but windy, the speed channel could be there.
Advantage is such that land inside is cheap and piece like 100 Ha should be enough to make Windsurfing park, speed run.

Macroscien
QLD, 4717 posts
11 Aug 2019 9:56PM
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How wide is the Lauderitz channel?
I am guessing about 10m?
the depth? max 50cm ?




kato
VIC, 2517 posts
11 Aug 2019 10:04PM
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Cold, dense wind has more energy and therefore faster. Cold water also means a faster speed before cavatiation sets in. Sorry wetsuits still needed

amirite
255 posts
11 Aug 2019 8:31PM
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Macroscien said..
How wide is the Lauderitz channel?
I am guessing about 10m?
the depth? max 50cm ?

what if i told you
there might be hard rock

boardsurfr
WA, 853 posts
11 Aug 2019 9:55PM
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Don't know about the Perth area. We saw a couple of days where Stroppo et al. did 42+ knots, but the wind probably was 20 knots less than on Luderitz record days. Shark Bay had more wind on the two days we were there, I guess Mike was thinking that direction when he said "up north". Land should be a lot cheaper there, too. You guys should definitely look into this!

I'd say ignore Kato's comment about the temperatures. He's too used to sailing in what counts as "cold" in Oz. Luderitz is not that cold, is it? Kato would probably vote for adding a 4 km long square part to the channel so he can do 24 hours at 40 knots, anyway .

sailquik
VIC, 4684 posts
12 Aug 2019 9:50AM
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The Luderitz set up is surprisingly cool. We were recommended to bring 4mm steamer and thankfully heeded that advice. the water is very cold in the ocean, (and bay) and the wind is off the ocean. Stand around in that wind and water all day and you need a decent wetsuit.

it's not just strong wind that is needed for a canal, but also a very consistent wind direction. A canal is useless if the wind varies by over 5-10 degrees angle. Not many places where that is available. Shark bay is certainly one of them, but it is very remote and there are no nice 5 star hotels (or even camping parks) a few KM's from potential spots (Try a few hundred KM's!)

On the plus side, i was much warmer sailing at Shark Bay than Luderitz.

sailquik
VIC, 4684 posts
12 Aug 2019 9:56AM
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And whats with the 'Again'???????

AusMoz
QLD, 1090 posts
12 Aug 2019 5:08PM
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Macroscien said..
The problem I could see: The most wind have Tasmania and SA / Perth, Kato place is also good at times.But channel should be in nice , tropical location to be in use whole year.I could see that the most wind in Queensland enjoy some small islands nearby. Surprisingly on my weekender backyard outback land ( near Dalby) wind today is excelling. Cattle are flying ( almost) So if there is flat land 300 km of the sea, but windy, the speed channel could be there.
Advantage is such that land inside is cheap and piece like 100 Ha should be enough to make Windsurfing park, speed run.


Well if your at the South/North Burnett Region you should be looking at some of the irrigation channels for the cotton farms etc???



A number of dams out there might be suitable, southern part of BP dam has a suitable run if there is enough water in it with a SE.

Macroscien
QLD, 4717 posts
12 Aug 2019 9:03PM
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sailquik said..
The Luderitz set up is surprisingly cool. We were recommended to bring 4mm steamer and thankfully heeded that advice. the water is very cold in the ocean, (and bay) and the wind is off the ocean. Stand around in that wind and water all day and you need a decent wetsuit.

it's not just strong wind that is needed for a canal, but also a very consistent wind direction. A canal is useless if the wind varies by over 5-10 degrees angle. Not many places where that is available. Shark bay is certainly one of them, but it is very remote and there are no nice 5 star hotels (or even camping parks) a few KM's from potential spots (Try a few hundred KM's!)

On the plus side, i was much warmer sailing at Shark Bay than Luderitz.


You are absolutely right. Then because in Australia we are going to make a speed run that really works. We are going to set up 1 km long channel strip equipped with a series of louvers that do direct wind in the exact direction. All we need is L to make shutter like devices to redirect wind to exact angle,.
Our Aussie Channel could be the best in the world because can be designed and build with Hi-Tech.

hardie
WA, 4006 posts
12 Aug 2019 7:42PM
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one option regarding Shark bay, is for the Windsurfing Industry to re-establish contact/relationships with Dampier Salt at Useless Loop, Peter Dans organized a speed sailing comp in the salt ponds ij the 1980's, thats a realistic option, a high wind area with a ready made wall/canal. Peter Dans can you respond if you read this.

peterowensbabs
NSW, 203 posts
12 Aug 2019 10:41PM
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What about some kind of floating wind chop damper that could be set up in somewhere like Shark Bay (never been there so guessing how it might be suitable). Some kind of energy absorbing artificial bank or break-wall that can be set at exactly the correct angle? Hell if is successful enough it could be moved from location to location, imagine a series of speed events in each state? I'd imagine it would be more cost effective. If you could host an event at say Botnay Bay or Port Phillip and generate media for the interest and also host events in more remote areas where the wind is strongest. Open it up to other craft moths or kites, foils etc. Im thinking something like the old Waymouth Speed Week. 500M of break wall and a launch retrieval pen couldn't be that hard to do - anyone got connections to Red Bull? If they can do an Air Race on the Danube in Vienna or Budapest this should be a walk in the park for our Ozzy can do ingenuity ???

Macroscien
QLD, 4717 posts
13 Aug 2019 7:31AM
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peterowensbabs said..
What about some kind of floating wind chop damper t


Indeed I could imagine such dumper to be used on shallow lake or pond.The main conditions will be the lack of tidal daily movements.Let us imagine lake 1 meter deep, but there are no weeds to dump waves.We could then create 500m long sleeve, made of stronger tarpaulin or similar material.Out plastic pipe, at diameter, 3 meters is filled with water, pumped in to create 10-20 cm higher level than surrounding water.So this way our pipe will create artificial barrier 3-4 meters wide extending 20 cm above water level.Two of such long sleeves could create an artificial channel on our lake. Our sleeves could be towed to adjust to wind direction or set up for most common wind and anchored to the ground.

Imax1
VIC, 2120 posts
13 Aug 2019 11:47AM
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Macroscien said..

peterowensbabs said..
What about some kind of floating wind chop damper t



Indeed I could imagine such dumper to be used on shallow lake or pond.The main conditions will be the lack of tidal daily movements.Let us imagine lake 1 meter deep, but there are no weeds to dump waves.We could then create 500m long sleeve, made of stronger tarpaulin or similar material.Out plastic pipe, at diameter, 3 meters is filled with water, pumped in to create 10-20 cm higher level than surrounding water.So this way our pipe will create artificial barrier 3-4 meters wide extending 20 cm above water level.Two of such long sleeves could create an artificial channel on our lake. Our sleeves could be towed to adjust to wind direction or set up for most common wind and anchored to the ground.


And we could do some rail grinds on the edge .

Pacey
WA, 118 posts
13 Aug 2019 2:47PM
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hardie said..
one option regarding Shark bay, is for the Windsurfing Industry to re-establish contact/relationships with Dampier Salt at Useless Loop, Peter Dans organized a speed sailing comp in the salt ponds ij the 1980's, thats a realistic option, a high wind area with a ready made wall/canal. Peter Dans can you respond if you read this.


The basic problem with the Useless Loop course was that the prevailing wind direction wasn't exactly right for any of the any of the various walls they had built for the salt ponds. Closesest was this one, with a 500m course drawn in.


In a southerly it was only about 115 degrees to the true wind direction. There may be some ponds built since then with better angles, but I couldn't spot anything that looked good on Google Earth.

The other problem was that this pond was called P3, because it had a salt content 3 times higher than seawater. If you got it in your eyes or up your nose it really stung!

sailquik
VIC, 4684 posts
13 Aug 2019 7:13PM
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peterowensbabs said..
What about some kind of floating wind chop damper that could be set up in somewhere like Shark Bay (never been there so guessing how it might be suitable). Some kind of energy absorbing artificial bank or break-wall that can be set at exactly the correct angle? ........


It is well established that floating chop breakers don't work.

But a barrier sitting on a shallow bottom, most likely water filled, would definitly work.

Now we have yet another parameter to find.

1. Really strong, consistent wind.
2. From a very consistent direction
3. In water less than 1 meter deep over a large area at least 1 sq,Km
4. lots of money to finance/build the barrier, get it into position, and manage it. (this. of course, brings a hefty participation fee )

Preferably, all close to an international airport and good hotels.

Primbee is my vote!

But I far prefer the natural course, free participation model.

boardsurfr
WA, 853 posts
14 Aug 2019 2:10AM
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Macroscien said..
We could then create 500m long sleeve, made of stronger tarpaulin or similar material.Out plastic pipe, at diameter, 3 meters is filled with water, pumped in to create 10-20 cm higher level than surrounding water.So this way our pipe will create artificial barrier 3-4 meters wide extending 20 cm above water level.Two of such long sleeves could create an artificial channel on our lake. Our sleeves could be towed to adjust to wind direction or set up for most common wind and anchored to the ground.

They used to do this here in the US in Hatteras a couple of decades back.The engineer and windsurfer responsible for setting up the barrier is the same guy who designed the Tectonic Weed Demon. I think they used a pipe-shaped structure constructed from tarps. From what I heard, it worked well. I don't think the barrier extended all the way to the bottom, but that happened years before I ever went to Hatteras, so I'm not 100% sure. The sound there is quite shallow (around a meter or less, depending on wind direction). I'd assume that a barrier that is larger than the typical swell size, and gets reasonably close to the ground, would work. In contrast, something that just floats on top in deeper water would not affect large swell, so it would be of rather limited usefulness.

boardsurfr
WA, 853 posts
14 Aug 2019 2:27AM
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sailquik said..
Now we have yet another parameter to find.
1. Really strong, consistent wind.
3. In water less than 1 meter deep over a large area at least 1 sq,Km


Shark Bay on a forecast of 20 knots. You should get 30-40. Several square kilometers of shallow water.



Select to expand quote
sailquik said..
2. From a very consistent direction
4. lots of money to finance/build the barrier, get it into position, and manage it. (this. of course, brings a hefty participation fee )


If you construct a tunnel/pipe barrier from tarps, it can be a temporary thing that does not cost much. Setting it up will be some effort, but it's easy to orient in just about any direction. Should be doable for a pretty moderate participation fee.



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sailquik said..
Preferably, all close to an international airport and good hotels.


9 hour drive from Perth .. much closer than Luderitz, and plenty of WA speedsailors to pay the participation fee. The hotels in Denham are quite nice, and closer to the launch timewise than the hotels in Beachport are to the Spit .. at least when you drive there in a station wagon.

Seems quite doable. Let me know if you want me to ask Keith how they constructed the barrier in Hatteras .

On second thought, I think you should forget about it. It would kill me if you'd do this and we could not scrape up the money for a trip .

boardsurfr
WA, 853 posts
14 Aug 2019 5:45AM
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I just got off the phone with Keith McCulloch, who gave me the details about the Hatteras "speed tarp tube". This was an annual event that ran for about 5 years at the end of the 80s. It was sponsored by Gaastra.

The key piece was a 300 m long truck tarp that was glued into a tunnel of 6 ft diameter, with 1 ft overlap, and deployed in 2-3 feet of water. The ends of the tunnel were rolled up and clamped liked a dry bag. About 5-10 meters from one end, a 40 cm wide fill tube was added that was then connected to an aluminium tube that went around a 70 HP boat motor. At full speed, the motor would fill the tube in a few minutes, with enough pressure so you could walk on the tube. After the first year, they put a large piece of ply wood under the motor so that they would not fill the tube with a ton of sand. The tube would be elliptical, and stick about 50 cm above the water. It was anchored every 5 meters with a sand anchor, and held up in 30 knot wind. The water behind the tube was perfectly smooth. Keith's top speed back then was 40 mph on boards like the Bic Allegro, and he says he was not even a good windsurfer back then (he is now!).

Deploying the tube took about an hour with 5 guys. Packing up took about twice that long. They talked about getting a fish net roll-up thingie to make that part faster, but the main guy behind the event lost interest before that happened.

Back in the 80s, the cost for the material were about $10K US. That was with US-made truck tarps; maybe it could be done at similar costs now that everything is made in China. That's about the list price of 3 NP race rigs.

I'm curious if you guys can pull off something similar in Oz .

mathew
VIC, 1751 posts
14 Aug 2019 10:21AM
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sailquik said..
It is well established that floating chop breakers don't work.
...
But a barrier sitting on a shallow bottom, most likely water filled, would definitly work.


Both statements appear to be true... I dont think the problem has been well-analysed... we (the human race) have largely just done a "lets throw some ideas/money at the problem". We do manage to make rock-walls and other artificial structures which seem to work, and there is plenty of research for chop-breaker concrete-blocks.

A design of an inflatable-artificial-wall (aka reef), combined with an artificial-weed on both sides... The reef breaks up the swell by causing a wave to form, causing some of the energy to be dissipated; being inflatable, the reef should absorb some energy too.

The shape could be a positive-skew bell curve, with the reef-height breach the water-surface (and extending to the sea-floor) - wave are still likely to breach the height, but can be mitigated by more inflation.

On the wave-side, make the weed look somewhat like kelp-forests. On the lee-side, make it more like sea-grass.


Some obvious bits of complexity... making a 1km long reef-structure - say out of plastic - that is strong enough to withstand a few ton of weight per sq/m... being able to ship that said device to said ideal location... attaching what appears to be a few thousand ton of plastic to the sea-floor... slightly more than atmospheric-pressure is probably enough air, but leakage, pumping losses, etc are all going to add to the size needed for your air-compressor... a decent mobile-power-station for your mobile-air-compressor.... transport/logistics of diesel for said power-station.

all sounds a bit complicated... might be easier to go for a flight to Sandy Point / Shark Bay / Luderitz. Or take up running.

sailquik
VIC, 4684 posts
14 Aug 2019 1:16PM
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I actually like the idea of the water filled plastic tube. I can see it might be feasible to construct it using ultasonic welding and a huge roll of PVC.

The inherent problem with such a structure is that it is water filled, and therefore has the same density as the water it sits in, with the exception of the actual plastic film. This means it need to be anchored to the bottom securely. Not an insurmountable problem, but a complication nonetheless. because, wherever there is strong wind, the surface water will be moving with it, trying to drag you barrier as well.

hardie
WA, 4006 posts
14 Aug 2019 11:17AM
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1000m sandspit in a very windy western australian town. Gonna check it out this summer.

earth.google.com/web/@-24.87600125,113.62668793,1.71728116a,4215.42681066d,35y,0h,0t,0r


www.tripadvisor.com.au/Attraction_Review-g488333-d6412403-Reviews-One_Mile_Jetty-Carnarvon_Western_Australia.html#photos;aggregationId=101&albumid=101&filter=7&ff=264913126

decrepit
WA, 9285 posts
14 Aug 2019 12:26PM
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I had a look on one of our trips, and it does look feasible, but I didn't have a lot of time. to check it properly

yoyo
WA, 1624 posts
14 Aug 2019 1:52PM
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Bit of a movable feast those spots up North. The one Hardie has his eye on has got better this year whilst just a few Ks further south a good run a few years ago has been completely destroyed.

2014


2017



2018

AUS02
TAS, 1851 posts
14 Aug 2019 7:14PM
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Henty has reformed - already nearly 1500m of sandbar and growing daily!

Photo courtesy of Cookie:






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Forums > Windsurfing   Gps and Speed talk


"How to make Australia Great Again?" started by Macroscien