Forums > Windsurfing   Gps and Speed talk

I feel the need, the need for Speed...

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Created by berowne > 9 months ago, 28 Jul 2016
berowne
NSW, 223 posts
28 Jul 2016 9:23PM
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So, I recently acquired a Speed Board... thanks to SeaBreeze (and Rick)!

Obviously the next step is achieving that 40kt legendary status.

To help me (and others!), below are a few comments and questions about setup, trim, gear and attitude...



Starting at the top... Sail setup. I've seen a lot of rigs on the beach with insufficient batten tension, but this photo below looks like I might have too much on the top 2-3 battens?

What about other rig settings, tension at the bottom battens (I like a LOT - thanks to Remi's influence).
Any tips on Boom height (I've been lowering it on my smaller sails c.f. 7.7) and harness length.



What about sail stance? is it more important to have the sail upright, or lent back with the gap closed?

Footstraps. I'm fairly comfortable outboard, but I've seen some photos with really deep position especially for the back foot. Is this dangerous? Can you get stuck in a crash?


Mast Base Position. Probably the most important trim setting for the board, how do you suggest setting up for an upwind leg at 20kts and (hopefully) downwind at 40. Shorely the compromise will favour the peak speed setting.




But how far back is too far back?



I've noticed that tail can sink quite deep at low speeds because it is such a narrow board. I've been tempted to ride with the mast further forward, aiming for nirvana where the board feels like it is hovering over the sea, just like this....



Then to questions of confidence... and bravery. So how can you go over high 30's with a bumpy surface with onshore swell about 3-5cm high. Especially when turning downwind takes you further and further into the shallows...



Finally, a few questions on stance and technique. Obviously sailing fast requires an efficient stance, but just how hard to you have to strive for speed? I've heard of one PWA sailor that had to sail with a mouth guard because he kept gritting his teeth so hard they wore away...

What about Weight? I'm thinking about adding some lead to my vest. In preparation for serious weight, I generally sail with a 2L camel pack now. How many KG are ideal for a few extra Kts? I understand the extra weight can make a board more stable in chop. Does this apply above 30kts?

Starting... especially in shallow water can be quite challenging I've found. Standing in knee deep water, often the board can sink before sufficient speed is achieved to get the fin out of the mud. I've found that while standing in the mud, I can sheet the sail in and load it up, then spring onto the board, pushing it forward as I get up, so that it is already moving across/down wind as I get my feet on. Sheet in hard and try to encourage it up onto the plane before it sinks. Slightly awkward but better than walking 200m to deeper water!

Any other tips?

Thanks,
Berowne

decrepit
WA, 8558 posts
28 Jul 2016 8:13PM
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I'm hopeless in chop so I'll watch this thread with interest.
However I may be able to help with sinker starts, if you're dragging the fin, when stepping on, it may be better to do a gradual water start, suspend as much weight as you can form the sail to keep the board up. As you pick up speed try and get your bum out of the water, then you should be away.

Trimming the board with mast track and foot strap position, varies with sailor weight and water conditions. In flat water you have everything further back so you can ride on the tail, but in chop you need the board flatter so it doesn't slam into the chop, but ride over it. How much further forward isn't a question I can answer, as I said I'm hopeless in chop.

Piv
WA, 368 posts
28 Jul 2016 10:38PM
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Nice pictures. Try sailing really overpowered for training. Have a go at downwind slalom in ocean swell.

powersloshin
NSW, 913 posts
29 Jul 2016 8:07AM
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I am not trying to teach anybody, too many better sailors than me, including you, but this is what I think helped me:
do a lot of runs, you will maximize the chance of getting the right gust in the right place.
release outhaul
keep bearing off for longer, you might get a second gust
when the gust arrives sheet out a bit, accelerate and bear away, lock your stance with front arm and leg extended and then hang all your weight from the harness
I play with mast foot and boom so I can just control it on the way back upwind and the front foot does not try to pull out of the strap too much
I tried 4kg weights on the shoulders and they help smooth the gusts when overpowered, but make it hard to restart. Byron can handle 8 kgs !
In my opinion the only reason you didn't crack 40 is that you don't sail very often, you got all that is needed to do it.
Enjoy the journey as much as the destination, Good Luck !!!!!

sailquik
VIC, 3996 posts
29 Jul 2016 1:26PM
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As long as the boom height and rig position is not out of the normal range it makes very little difference. The main thing is to be comfortably balanced. If you achieve this it allows you the confidence to feel in control and therefore go faster.

The aim of rig and body position is to maximise your leverage on the rig. You get more leverage by getting you body taller and further away from the sail. The stance width is very important in this. Feet too far apart might give you a feeling of stability, but it also reduces your ability to get your weight up higher and away from the sail. Find the balance you are comfortable with.

Mast foot position is dependant on the size and shape of the sail. Generally: Smaller = further back. Larger = further forward to keep the same rig rake. Rig rake depends on the shape of the foot and CofE position of the sail. Race, Freerace, and Speed sails are designed with the correct foot angle to be close to parallel with the deck when powered. Better to close the gap as much as possible within keeping good rig balance. If the foot is dragging, bring the base position back. If it is high and open, move it forward. This will also change with raked to upright fins. Raked fins take CofR back so rig base (and straps) needs to be brought back as well to balance. Angle of course to the true wind will also affect this. When you go very broad at top speed you open the sheeting up slightly and can have the base back slightly more without dragging the sail in the water.

The biggest gains are made when you feel balanced and stable and you just get a bigger gust of wind at the best angle of course. More wind and better angle trumps everything else by a LONG way! Get the tuning comfortable and then go chase those gusts.

AusMoz
QLD, 926 posts
29 Jul 2016 6:51PM
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Good Topic Berowne, I will be following the feedback for this as well. Just hope we keep it easy to follow and doesn't get too technical!

Fingers crossed you hit the 40 barrier ASAP!!!!

Ausmoz

T 11
TAS, 796 posts
29 Jul 2016 7:20PM
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gpsteamchallenge.com.au/sailor_session/show?date=2015-01-16&team=27

These 2 pics of James show his stance just before bearing away out into the chop to do 46.61kts Tassie Record (sorry Perks you got 46.57)

Adriano
8796 posts
30 Jul 2016 3:15PM
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Select to expand quote
sailquik said..
As long as the boom height and rig position is not out of the normal range it makes very little difference. The main thing is to be comfortably balanced. If you achieve this it allows you the confidence to feel in control and therefore go faster.

The aim of rig and body position is to maximise your leverage on the rig. You get more leverage by getting you body taller and further away from the sail. The stance width is very important in this. Feet too far apart might give you a feeling of stability, but it also reduces your ability to get your weight up higher and away from the sail. Find the balance you are comfortable with.

Mast foot position is dependant on the size and shape of the sail. Generally: Smaller = further back. Larger = further forward to keep the same rig rake. Rig rake depends on the shape of the foot and CofE position of the sail. Race, Freerace, and Speed sails are designed with the correct foot angle to be close to parallel with the deck when powered. Better to close the gap as much as possible within keeping good rig balance. If the foot is dragging, bring the base position back. If it is high and open, move it forward. This will also change with raked to upright fins. Raked fins take CofR back so rig base (and straps) needs to be brought back as well to balance. Angle of course to the true wind will also affect this. When you go very broad at top speed you open the sheeting up slightly and can have the base back slightly more without dragging the sail in the water.

The biggest gains are made when you feel balanced and stable and you just get a bigger gust of wind at the best angle of course. More wind and better angle trumps everything else by a LONG way! Get the tuning comfortable and then go chase those gusts.




Ditto. The absolute secret to high 10 sec and peaks is to bear away in the gusts. Don't do what the chookies do and hang on and bear upwind a bit.

Practice in overpowered conditions then rig a slightly smaller sail in the same conditions for speed. Everything should feel balanced.

The fastest runs are always the ones where everything is almost effortless. If you're struggling with the rig or board you're encountering drag - and that's always a penalty. My fastest run last Saturday at the Pit (Ado) was the last - when I was tired and usually when runs are slower. Everything came together and in balance.

Happy speeding!

gavnwend
NSW, 953 posts
30 Jul 2016 6:46PM
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Practice is the secret try and get out everytime there's strong wind.make sure your fin matches your board size.when doing a speed run & bearing off hang of the boom, dont be to tenitive with your back foot.push down on your front toes.close your eyes for a second & say a little pray and go for it good luck on your speed adventure.

sailquik
VIC, 3996 posts
30 Jul 2016 7:25PM
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T 11 said..

gpsteamchallenge.com.au/sailor_session/show?date=2015-01-16&team=27

These 2 pics of James show his stance just before bearing away out into the chop to do 46.61kts Tassie Record (sorry Perks you got 46.57)



Fantastic speeds from all sailors that day!

And that looks to be very efficient stance from James, especially considering the waist harness!

I guess you realise it, but it is salient to note that the 0.04kt difference between these two second speeds for James and Perks would be certainly more than covered by the error margin (likely in excess of 0.3 kt). In other words, we can not possibly know which sailor was a actually faster over 2 seconds. This is why we don't have 2 sec Records.

AUS4
NSW, 898 posts
30 Jul 2016 7:34PM
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Doesn't look like a waist harness.

mathew
VIC, 1630 posts
30 Jul 2016 8:53PM
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sailquik said..
The biggest gains are made when you feel balanced and stable and you just get a bigger gust of wind at the best angle of course. More wind and better angle trumps everything else by a LONG way! Get the tuning comfortable and then go chase those gusts.


This. They used to say ... 40kn for 40kn. We can now do it in less, but the adage still applies.

Windsurfunstu
NSW, 176 posts
30 Jul 2016 9:00PM
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I see your photos are at Primbee Berowne. It has been a hard place to speedsail in the last couple of years. No weed has meant its needed to be really low tide, which is spooky at speed or its been choppy as hell. I've only just cracked 40 so I'm no expert. I'd have to agree with the earlier comments, get the balance right, get comfortable, and just keep trying. Some days come together, some days you feel like you're going backwards. Each time I've made a big jump in speed its felt pretty effortless. We live in a place where you really have to work hard to do top speeds. You have to put yourself in the right place at the right time and be prepared. Try not to get to excited when its cranking, its easy to rush through things. My main advise to anyone trying to go faster usually is, look for bigger gusts and bear away deeper then you think. You soon learn how much power you loose when you send it really deep and then you get more confidence to go for it in bigger gusts. Just take care, its a fine line between pushing harder and knowing when your out of your depth. At the end of the day you're going to have some painful stacks if you want to do 40 knots in NSW. Good luck and take care Berownie

Adriano
8796 posts
31 Jul 2016 5:37AM
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Select to expand quote
sailquik said..

T 11 said..

gpsteamchallenge.com.au/sailor_session/show?date=2015-01-16&team=27

These 2 pics of James show his stance just before bearing away out into the chop to do 46.61kts Tassie Record (sorry Perks you got 46.57)


Fantastic speeds from all sailors that day!

And that looks to be very efficient stance from James, especially considering the waist harness!

I guess you realise it, but it is salient to note that the 0.04kt difference between these two second speeds for James and Perks would be certainly more than covered by the error margin (likely in excess of 0.3 kt). In other words, we can not possibly know which sailor was a actually faster over 2 seconds. This is why we don't have 2 sec Records.


Yeah those Tassies are 2 second wonders! Their 5 x 10 secs aren't that much chop!

Adriano
8796 posts
31 Jul 2016 5:39AM
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mathew said..

sailquik said..
The biggest gains are made when you feel balanced and stable and you just get a bigger gust of wind at the best angle of course. More wind and better angle trumps everything else by a LONG way! Get the tuning comfortable and then go chase those gusts.


This. They used to say ... 40kn for 40kn. We can now do it in less, but the adage still applies.


About 28knots of wind.....

That's how good modern fins and sails are.

The sailors are also much better and more experienced than back in the 40 for 40 days.

Adriano
8796 posts
31 Jul 2016 5:50AM
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Select to expand quote
T 11 said..


gpsteamchallenge.com.au/sailor_session/show?date=2015-01-16&team=27

These 2 pics of James show his stance just before bearing away out into the chop to do 46.61kts Tassie Record (sorry Perks you got 46.57)



Great stance and trim. Only thing I'd add is that one needs to slightly bend the front leg as one bears into chop to avoid fin cavitation. Very slightly.

James's hands are also wide on the boom -

berowne
NSW, 223 posts
31 Jul 2016 3:44PM
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Thanks for all the comments guys.... looking forward to another chance to break 40 sometime this week.

T 11
TAS, 796 posts
31 Jul 2016 10:50PM
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Select to expand quote
Adriano said..

sailquik said..


T 11 said..

gpsteamchallenge.com.au/sailor_session/show?date=2015-01-16&team=27

These 2 pics of James show his stance just before bearing away out into the chop to do 46.61kts Tassie Record (sorry Perks you got 46.57)



Fantastic speeds from all sailors that day!

And that looks to be very efficient stance from James, especially considering the waist harness!

I guess you realise it, but it is salient to note that the 0.04kt difference between these two second speeds for James and Perks would be certainly more than covered by the error margin (likely in excess of 0.3 kt). In other words, we can not possibly know which sailor was a actually faster over 2 seconds. This is why we don't have 2 sec Records.



Yeah those Tassies are 2 second wonders! Their 5 x 10 secs aren't that much chop!


Our runs are only about 350m along the sand then layoff really deep into the chop so part of our 10 sec is just reaching
James crashed at about 45 knots this day and broke the top batten and shredded some of the sail and next run did 46kts so the top section doesn't do much when it's really blowing.
That's what you have to wait for Berowne big winds at least 25 to 35 knots

Piv
WA, 368 posts
1 Aug 2016 10:36PM
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So whats the consensus on harnesses. Seat harnesses seem to be the most popular but aa uses a waist harness.

kato
VIC, 2243 posts
2 Aug 2016 12:55PM
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Piv said...
So whats the consensus on harnesses. Seat harnesses seem to be the most popular but aa uses a waist harness.

If you've got the skills and weight of AA use a waist, if not use a seat

AUS4
NSW, 898 posts
2 Aug 2016 2:37PM
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I think you will find AA wears a seat harness when speed sailing.

John340
QLD, 1808 posts
2 Aug 2016 3:12PM
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AA wearing a seat harness when he broke the world windsurfng speed record at Luderitz last year



The finalists in the recent PWA Fuerteventura Slalom event. The majority appear to be all wearing waist harnesses.

Te Hau
326 posts
2 Aug 2016 4:34PM
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John340 said..


AA wearing a seat harness when he broke the world windsurfng speed record at Luderitz last year



The finalists in the recent PWA Fuerteventura Slalom event. The majority appear to be all wearing waist harnesses.


Slalom racing, over powered, over boarded, all about control first.....waist harness.

Macroscien
QLD, 4506 posts
2 Aug 2016 8:52PM
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T 11 said..












What is the length of harness lines James is using with waist harness?

I use 24 . Is it too short to have proper position ( 175 cm height) ?

I feel comfortable but people comment that it could be too short to have right speed ....

izaak
TAS, 1907 posts
3 Aug 2016 12:37PM
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Ahh if only we had a speed run down here long enough to really wind it up Adriano spot on Johno

Just to clarify james is using seat harness, 28inch lines. His height is 175+cm or so.

berowne
NSW, 223 posts
3 Aug 2016 7:18PM
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Be great if we good dig a trench somewhere windy, oh and where the EPA wouldn't find it...

powersloshin
NSW, 913 posts
3 Aug 2016 7:28PM
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Is your backyard windy enough ?

geared4knots
TAS, 2352 posts
5 Aug 2016 9:33PM
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Perfect location, James did well in his backyard with the nature built trench. We have also had guys in tassie do 40 knots on free style wave boards here.



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Forums > Windsurfing   Gps and Speed talk


"I feel the need, the need for Speed..." started by berowne