Forums > Windsurfing   Gps and Speed talk

KA72 full stop

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Created by Tinlyds 2 months ago, 26 Aug 2018
Tinlyds
NSW, 160 posts
26 Aug 2018 10:29AM
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I have taken some deep breaths before writing this. Why can't we all just use KA72 ? I didn't realise until the past couple of weeks that you can (if you choose to do so) bypass KA72 and just put your own figures in GPSTC. It is also apparent to me that you could (if you choose to do so) carry an authorised device on you along side say an unapproved device such as a Garmin watch. Then if you get called out on one of your posts you can manually adjust your speeds and submit the approved file without any consequences. At the end of the day you're only cheating yourself, BUT why do we as a windsurfing community allow this to happen. If everyone had to upload to KA72 and make available their files then there would NEVER be any questionable sessions. There is nothing stopping me typing in say 42 knots (is there ? ) getting a PB, getting some congratulations, finding out someone was suspicious, getting asked by GPSTC to supply my file, then changing it to 40 and supply my actual file -- without anyone screenshotting the original post, walking away without any conviction.

Yes I'm really bitter from a recent experience (not me) I'm not that fast. It just worries me that without a process in place to avoid GPS file manipulation that we're just inviting the minority to abuse the system in the pursuit of their own glory.

One site KA72 only, upload your file or DON'T post --- that would be too easy. I look forward to your thoughts on this subject.

Lyds

hardie
WA, 3931 posts
26 Aug 2018 8:42AM
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I havent been following events on GPSTC, so I can't comment on what you have to say about the cheating issues?

In regards to the founding of the GPSTC, one important philosophy was Inclusiveness, and the one problem I have is when you state "One site KA72 only, upload your file or DON'T post", which then goes against Inclusivity and creates Restriction and Exclusion, which I'm not a fan of. Humans that need to cheat will find a way no matter. The risk of cheating is terrible public shaming, which is as good as any deterrent.

These are just my opinions, and the GPSTC belongs to the community of windsurfers who participate in it. The GPSTC was never meant to be perfect, it was meant to get people windsurfing and to make friendships, and i believe it has succeeded in that? Don't turn the GPSTC into something it was never meant to be.

Tinlyds
NSW, 160 posts
26 Aug 2018 10:56AM
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Thanks Hardie, I never brought GPSTC into the issue to have any negative reactions to them. It's a great site, they do a great job it's just how some people manage to use it that draws heat. I get your inclusiveness statement but I don't mind excluding and restricting cheats.

Roo
600 posts
26 Aug 2018 9:01AM
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Lyds,

if you post to GPS-Speedsurfing.com it automatically calculates your numbers and can then transfer them over to the GPSTC by the simple click of a button. It makes it easy to post in both locations. Manfred Fuchs who developed the stand alone program GPSResults also did the software on the site to automatically calculate the results when a track is posted. Additionally they have regional time keepers who can ask for validation if a track has some problems. Lots of checks and balances in the likelihood someone may try cheating but I doubt anyone ever has.

fanatic02
NSW, 277 posts
26 Aug 2018 11:04AM
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I agree with Steve , Or maybe on Gpstc a section where files can be located . Personally i like looking up the faster guys tracks to see where they did there speeds and how much they bear away. I can see how people would use multiple devices to take a aggregate score to post . I always use 2 just in case one fails . You should not have an option on GPSTC to edit results . You have opened a can of worms LYDS , PS , I love the GPSTC ,Met lots of great people all over Oz and sailed some great locations .

Tinlyds
NSW, 160 posts
26 Aug 2018 11:09AM
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Select to expand quote
Roo said..
Lyds,

if you post to GPS-Speedsurfing.com it automatically calculates your numbers and can then transfer them over to the GPSTC by the simple click of a button. It makes it easy to post in both locations. Manfred Fuchs who developed the stand alone program GPSResults also did the software on the site to automatically calculate the results when a track is posted. Additionally they have regional time keepers who can ask for validation if a track has some problems. Lots of checks and balances in the likelihood someone may try cheating but I doubt anyone ever has.


Cool, see I didn't realise that there were other sites like KA72, thanks for that.

Tinlyds
NSW, 160 posts
26 Aug 2018 11:09AM
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Select to expand quote
fanatic02 said..
I agree with Steve , Or maybe on Gpstc a section where files can be located . I personally like looking up the faster guys tracks to see where they did there speeds and how much they bear away. I can see how people would use multiple devices to take a aggregate score to post . I always use 2 just in case one fails . You have opened a can of worms LYDS ,


That was the plan ??

John340
QLD, 1865 posts
26 Aug 2018 11:45AM
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I analyse my sessions on GPSResults, but always upload my results, to GPSTC via KA72. There is rarely any difference except on the single occasion when KA72 came upwith a rogue alpha. I however don't believe it should be compulsary. In the end we are adults and the only person you cheat is yourself if you don't follow the rules or fabricate your results.

eckas
NSW, 264 posts
26 Aug 2018 1:31PM
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An option....Any sessions that are re-edited after the original posting are displayed prominently on the home page, with pre and post edit details. It encourages one to double check and post the correct numbers first time, knowing that edits will be publicly scrutinised, congratulations rescinded and reputations tarnished if PBs or other noteworthy achievements are subsequently downgraded after original posting.

Boston!
NSW, 29 posts
26 Aug 2018 2:20PM
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Posting via KA72 or GPS-SPEEDSURFING allows everybody to view your file and leaves no doubt to the validity of your numbers (providing you set your preferences to "public"). If you wanna go to your local speed surfing hotspot, do your thing, and then claim to be the fastest or one of the fastest sailors on the water that day but then not make your file publicly available when everybody else has? Well, that will always cast doubt on the validity of your numbers. There are only a small percentage of sailors who do it and these sailors are not among the slowest!
OK, we are not playing for sheep stations but I can't see why we can't have transparency when it comes to the data.

AJEaster
NSW, 650 posts
26 Aug 2018 3:47PM
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First of all, great post Tinlyds!!!!!! Personally I am all for having to post via KA72. It creates a standard, and a uniform method of harvesting the results. Having to use KA72 doesn't exclude anyone from the use of the GPSTC.......... if you have the internet capability to post on the GPSTC, you have the capability to upload your file via KA72. If there are spikes or anomalies, then get someone to look at it, otherwise, lock and load.

We covered this one a couple of years ago here:

www.seabreeze.com.au/forums/Windsurfing/Gps/Mandatory-use-of-KA72-with-GPSTC?page=1

BSN101
WA, 1376 posts
26 Aug 2018 4:11PM
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Select to expand quote
AJEaster said..
First of all, great post Tinlyds!!!!!! Personally I am all for having to post via KA72. It creates a standard, and a uniform method of harvesting the results. Having to use KA72 doesn't exclude anyone from the use of the GPSTC.......... if you have the internet capability to post on the GPSTC, you have the capability to upload your file via KA72. If there are spikes or anomalies, then get someone to look at it, otherwise, lock and load.

We covered this one a couple of years ago here:

www.seabreeze.com.au/forums/Windsurfing/Gps/Mandatory-use-of-KA72-with-GPSTC?page=1


KA72 Is free too, unless you want to pay.

It would be nice to be able to edit part of tracks out of KA72 (car rides after the session)

decrepit
WA, 8777 posts
26 Aug 2018 4:52PM
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Personally, I'm heavily against making posting through KA72 or any other external website mandatory.
KA72 is a great site, but the GTC has no control over it.

I've seen very suspect posts coming from there.
Dylan has to cater to more than the GTC community, so posts can be made with any old thing.
Some are only 1hz trackpoints with half the data missing, but somehow KA72 managed to calculate all the divisions from it. When I ran it in GPSResults with normal filters, I got virtually nothing.

As far as I know Nebs has it on his to do list, to be able to post files to the GTC.

What we'd like to aim for, is only data with doppler speed and accuracy data be admitted. At the moment legacy and the Canmore don't meet these standards, but they are meant to only be used for non scoring posts.

I see no perfect solution to this problem, but I feel each sailor should take responsibility for the accuracy of their data.

It's not hard to use GPSResults or GPSARPro. Be interested in your data, check your results. Use the SDoP function, to achieve the best accuracy, it's not until you start looking, that find out how bad your data gets, when the GPS suddenly looses a good sky view.

And instead of letting things simmer and getting really biter, report your misgivings to admin straight away.
It wasn't until somebody actually did this that admin found out about the situation, but could only act on the current file.

tbwonder
NSW, 117 posts
26 Aug 2018 9:46PM
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As others have said above there are a range of reasons why compulsory posting through KA72 is not the way forward.
Some folk like to use other software or websites to do the calculations and that's fine. But if you are not using KA72 to post I believe you should upload your GPS file to KA72 (or any other public website) so others can check your calculations.
Everyone makes mistakes. It is much better that someone spots your mistake before others accuse you of cheating.
If you choose to keep your files secret, then you run the risk that some people will think you have something to hide.
Once branded a cheat it is impossible to ever be seen as clean.

boardsurfr
691 posts
26 Aug 2018 10:02PM
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As much as I love being able to download interesting sessions from ka72.com, requiring mandatory postings there is a bad idea for many reasons. Some of the ones I have personally seen are:
- not being able to upload GW-60 files to ka72.com (happened several times to one guy on our team)
- bugs on ka72.com that resulted in wrong speeds (Dylan is sometimes good at fixing those, but does not respond at other times)
- lack of support for .ubx files (has been an issue with DIY development, no responses from Dylan)
- top speeds from sessions posted on ka72.com reached while driving (when someone forgot to turn off the GPS).

The last one is an example of a rather common mistake where simple posting to ka72.com does not help at all. Quite the opposite - if data had to be posted through ka72.com, this might become more common. And most sessions that don't involve high PBs would remain unchecked.

The other issue is that anyone who really wants to cheat can still cheat even with a ka72.com posting requirement. Plenty of different options here, even if we exclude driving: jet skis, editing files, creating files entirely on the computer, putting a extra GPS on a faster sailor to boost team scores, and so on. If you really want to be certain that cheating cannot happen, you need to go to rather elaborate rules like the record rules (www.gps-speedsurfing.com/default.aspx?mnu=item&item=RecordRules) that require witnesses, immediate data downloads, and more. That's not really an option for GPSTC.

elmo
WA, 7801 posts
26 Aug 2018 10:15PM
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What is it about New South Welshmen seeing cheats everywhere (in NSW anyway)??

Get a grip peoples, sheeps stations are not up for grabs here. We don't get bonuses for our PB rankings.

If you know think someones being sketchy, they're the loser, not you.

If they Fake a PB it just makes it harder to get a real one and they are always going to know in the back of their mind that their numbers are bullsh1t and they weren't good enough to do it properly, in other words a loser.

Some of us have been calculating numbers long before the GPSTC came into existence and even longer than when KA72 came into existence.

Those of us who used to post with GPSSS are used to being audited so we keep our records, I've got all my files (original SBN, RAW GPX and Edit GPX) going back to 2005.

Get over it, go sailing and dpn't worry as much about what someone else may or may not be doing. Life is to short.

kato
VIC, 2302 posts
28 Aug 2018 2:45PM
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I post to KA72 AFTER I have checked the tracks for errors using gps software. The issue with 72 is I have to trust that the results are right. There is no way for me to check. Use what ever to check your approved device and keep the track logs

Rus13b
NSW, 222 posts
28 Aug 2018 8:59PM
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there needs to b a delete option in the actions bit.
I couldn't delete my record breaking drive home only change it to
private & other.
would help out the amatures among us, me included.

mineral1
WA, 4445 posts
29 Aug 2018 9:08AM
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Select to expand quote
elmo said..
What is it about New South Welshmen seeing cheats everywhere (in NSW anyway)??

Get a grip peoples, sheeps stations are not up for grabs here. We don't get bonuses for our PB rankings.

If you know think someones being sketchy, they're the loser, not you.

If they Fake a PB it just makes it harder to get a real one and they are always going to know in the back of their mind that their numbers are bullsh1t and they weren't good enough to do it properly, in other words a loser.

Some of us have been calculating numbers long before the GPSTC came into existence and even longer than when KA72 came into existence.

Those of us who used to post with GPSSS are used to being audited so we keep our records, I've got all my files (original SBN, RAW GPX and Edit GPX) going back to 2005.

Get over it, go sailing and dpn't worry as much about what someone else may or may not be doing. Life is to short.



Exactly !!!!!!
Designed to keep the fun in it. Getting super serious stuff was never the intent. The intent was to keep people improving, with encouragement from team mates.
When ever I see this type topic pop up, I recall from a coaching clinic from a prominent sports person that be mindful at all times:
Rules, people love to make rules!!! People will add onto existing rules, make new rules. In the end, it becomes so complicated wading through the rules, the popularity dwindles and the system implodes.

stringer
WA, 698 posts
31 Aug 2018 7:02PM
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Any ideas how to get a real speed install on a modern computer these days?

elmo
WA, 7801 posts
31 Aug 2018 9:31PM
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You need to install it in "compatibility" mode (XP).

Then send an email of to Mal to register as per usual.

raymondw
44 posts
1 Sep 2018 6:16AM
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Select to expand quote
Roo said..
Lyds,

if you post to GPS-Speedsurfing.com it automatically calculates your numbers and can then transfer them over to the GPSTC by the simple click of a button. It makes it easy to post in both locations. Manfred Fuchs who developed the stand alone program GPSResults also did the software on the site to automatically calculate the results when a track is posted. Additionally they have regional time keepers who can ask for validation if a track has some problems. Lots of checks and balances in the likelihood someone may try cheating but I doubt anyone ever has.


ATM there are NO regional time keepers@GP3S, but I've had a chat/lunch with GP3S last week (coincidence) :)
RTK will return as soon as possible, needs a software update and regional contacts.

And even at GP3S you can bypass the checks if you really want...
There where suspicious tracks uploaded, but until now they where always identified by the human element.
But again... I would appreciate a "has been checked" box at GP3S

Is it possible? without a doubt : gps-logs.mastvoet.nl/view_session_detail.php?id=1014
(My personal ramblings.... (no, you cant use it))

Cocky2
QLD, 89 posts
6 Sep 2018 7:23AM
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decrepit said..
Personally, I'm heavily against making posting through KA72 or any other external website mandatory.
KA72 is a great site, but the GTC has no control over it.

I've seen very suspect posts coming from there.
Dylan has to cater to more than the GTC community, so posts can be made with any old thing.
Some are only 1hz trackpoints with half the data missing, but somehow KA72 managed to calculate all the divisions from it. When I ran it in GPSResults with normal filters, I got virtually nothing.

As far as I know Nebs has it on his to do list, to be able to post files to the GTC.

What we'd like to aim for, is only data with doppler speed and accuracy data be admitted. At the moment legacy and the Canmore don't meet these standards, but they are meant to only be used for non scoring posts.

I see no perfect solution to this problem, but I feel each sailor should take responsibility for the accuracy of their data.

It's not hard to use GPSResults or GPSARPro. Be interested in your data, check your results. Use the SDoP function, to achieve the best accuracy, it's not until you start looking, that find out how bad your data gets, when the GPS suddenly looses a good sky view.

And instead of letting things simmer and getting really biter, report your misgivings to admin straight away.
It wasn't until somebody actually did this that admin found out about the situation, but could only act on the current file.


It is disappointing that for a fun competition that tracks are not made public for all to see.
Personnally I have learnt at lot looking at top sailors tracks.
I download their tracks and look at them in GPS results.
It removes doubt about results and reduces the work on volonteers who run team challenge checking data.


Tinlyds
NSW, 160 posts
6 Sep 2018 9:22AM
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Select to expand quote
Cocky2 said..

decrepit said..
Personally, I'm heavily against making posting through KA72 or any other external website mandatory.
KA72 is a great site, but the GTC has no control over it.

I've seen very suspect posts coming from there.
Dylan has to cater to more than the GTC community, so posts can be made with any old thing.
Some are only 1hz trackpoints with half the data missing, but somehow KA72 managed to calculate all the divisions from it. When I ran it in GPSResults with normal filters, I got virtually nothing.

As far as I know Nebs has it on his to do list, to be able to post files to the GTC.

What we'd like to aim for, is only data with doppler speed and accuracy data be admitted. At the moment legacy and the Canmore don't meet these standards, but they are meant to only be used for non scoring posts.

I see no perfect solution to this problem, but I feel each sailor should take responsibility for the accuracy of their data.

It's not hard to use GPSResults or GPSARPro. Be interested in your data, check your results. Use the SDoP function, to achieve the best accuracy, it's not until you start looking, that find out how bad your data gets, when the GPS suddenly looses a good sky view.

And instead of letting things simmer and getting really biter, report your misgivings to admin straight away.
It wasn't until somebody actually did this that admin found out about the situation, but could only act on the current file.



It is disappointing that for a fun competition that tracks are not made public for all to see.
Personnally I have learnt at lot looking at top sailors tracks.
I download their tracks and look at them in GPS results.
It removes doubt about results and reduces the work on volonteers who run team challenge checking data.




Here here Ian ??

Tinlyds
NSW, 160 posts
6 Sep 2018 9:22AM
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Select to expand quote
Cocky2 said..

decrepit said..
Personally, I'm heavily against making posting through KA72 or any other external website mandatory.
KA72 is a great site, but the GTC has no control over it.

I've seen very suspect posts coming from there.
Dylan has to cater to more than the GTC community, so posts can be made with any old thing.
Some are only 1hz trackpoints with half the data missing, but somehow KA72 managed to calculate all the divisions from it. When I ran it in GPSResults with normal filters, I got virtually nothing.

As far as I know Nebs has it on his to do list, to be able to post files to the GTC.

What we'd like to aim for, is only data with doppler speed and accuracy data be admitted. At the moment legacy and the Canmore don't meet these standards, but they are meant to only be used for non scoring posts.

I see no perfect solution to this problem, but I feel each sailor should take responsibility for the accuracy of their data.

It's not hard to use GPSResults or GPSARPro. Be interested in your data, check your results. Use the SDoP function, to achieve the best accuracy, it's not until you start looking, that find out how bad your data gets, when the GPS suddenly looses a good sky view.

And instead of letting things simmer and getting really biter, report your misgivings to admin straight away.
It wasn't until somebody actually did this that admin found out about the situation, but could only act on the current file.



It is disappointing that for a fun competition that tracks are not made public for all to see.
Personnally I have learnt at lot looking at top sailors tracks.
I download their tracks and look at them in GPS results.
It removes doubt about results and reduces the work on volonteers who run team challenge checking data.




Here here Ian ??

sailquik
VIC, 4124 posts
6 Sep 2018 6:23PM
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Cocky2. If you want to anyones else tracks, here is a thought: Perhaps you could just ask them?

decrepit
WA, 8777 posts
6 Sep 2018 8:17PM
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Yep it's much easier to post the odd tracks to people who ask than to upload every session to KA72

Simon100
QLD, 481 posts
6 Sep 2018 10:54PM
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Ka72 is great and it does often seem odd to me that everyone doesn't just use it but maybe they have there reasons. Just don't be thinking Ka72 will stop possible cheating there would still be heaps of ways for someone to make a fake track if they really wanted.but then again is anyone cheating at all ? I think there is just people worried it could happen when really were all honest and here for fun.

seanhogan
2940 posts
7 Sep 2018 4:38AM
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I, for one, can only admire all the work put in by Dylan to run ka72 for Free !
I started a team in gpstc a while ago for New Cal, but in the end couldn't see the point, maybe some of my mates are still posting, I don't visit it anymore.
Comparing teams & results from overstate or overseas seemed pointless to me. Comparing pears and apples.
Don't get me wrong, it's probably really cool for all it's members. Not me.

I prefer the opportunity offered by Dylan to create specific groups/teams with specific/custom categories.
And with all results stored on site, no need to keep them and anyone can go and check them out. Without having to ask, which I wouldn't do.

So if you're full on 0.001 results/data/error accuracy, then post to gpstc with the approved device (which seems like an expensive piece of...BTW ) and if you're more into the fun side of windsurfing and don't mind losing/winning 1/4 of a knot, then create or join a group on ka72 !

@ Decrepit : I usually agree with you, but :"much easier to post the odd tracks to people who ask than to upload every session to KA72"
I can't see how..... Three clicks on ka72 and your file is on line. How can it be easier ?
Cheers




decrepit
WA, 8777 posts
7 Sep 2018 9:37AM
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Sean I check all my data while I do that I post it to gtc. Logging in to KA72 and uploading there is an unnecessary extra step. If I think I've had an interesting session I will go to the trouble of posting the gps visualizer tracks.

powersloshin
NSW, 943 posts
7 Sep 2018 3:06PM
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this is great, will keep us busy until summer breezes arrive...



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Forums > Windsurfing   Gps and Speed talk


"KA72 full stop" started by Tinlyds