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Speed Board Build - HD Creeper 48

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Created by Kimba > 9 months ago, 30 Jan 2014
Kimba
SA, 453 posts
30 Jan 2014 8:05AM
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I am making my first board since 2007 and thought I would start a thread to follow my progress. The model has been evolving over the last few months and is a Lake George special for the heavy gentleman. Specs are 48 x 245 x 72L at this stage.

More info here...
whitelionwindsurfing.blogspot.com/2014/01/board-building-project-hd-creeper-48.html







So far I have made cutting templates, cut the rocker WITH vee and glued a 3mm Dcell stringer with reinforcement between the track and box.

More info here...
whitelionwindsurfing.blogspot.com/2014/01/board-building-project-hd-creeper-48_28.html


























shear tip
NSW, 1125 posts
30 Jan 2014 9:12AM
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This will be very interesting

ikw777
QLD, 2995 posts
30 Jan 2014 9:52AM
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Absolutely fantastic!

Fredstyles
85 posts
31 Jan 2014 12:53AM
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boardbuilding porn!

Macroscien
QLD, 6498 posts
31 Jan 2014 11:31AM
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Where you can get fin boxes and mast rails for new board ?

sausage
QLD, 4870 posts
31 Jan 2014 11:48AM
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Macroscien said..

Where you can get fin boxes and mast rails for new board ?


Out of an old one Macro or you can buy new from Surf Sail Australia http://www.surfsailaustralia.com.au/listProduct/Windsurfing/Bits+and+Pieces/0 Have bought footstrap inserts from them previously.

Now back to the action. Kimba - really looking forward to this thread developing and hopefully it stays on track.
I am assuming that's not a stringer but just a centreline mark down the middle of the blank.

Kimba
SA, 453 posts
31 Jan 2014 2:47PM
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Fredstyles said..
boardbuilding porn!




Haaa classic Fred, I have been looking at everybody else's for too many years, time to contribute to the pool again



sausage said..


Macroscien said..

Where you can get fin boxes and mast rails for new board ?



Out of an old one Macro or you can buy new from Surf Sail Australia http://www.surfsailaustralia.com.au/listProduct/Windsurfing/Bits+and+Pieces/0 Have bought footstrap inserts from them previously.
Now back to the action. Kimba - really looking forward to this thread developing and hopefully it stays on track.
I am assuming that's not a stringer but just a centreline mark down the middle of the blank.



Parts are from my local but as Snags said -surfsailaustralia seem to have them.

Stuart Bell Sails have most of the Chinook stuff here: www.stubell.com.au/shopping-cart/board-building-components/

The build is still on track but I have lost a few nights due to the hot weather and the kids being a bit ratty and not heading off to bed until late My eldest is now back at school so that probably doesn't help.
I used to be able to complete a build in 2 weeks and I reckon I should be able to achieve that inder normal circumstances...

It is actually a stringer as I needed to cut the board 1 half at a time to create a clean vee. The initial concept was a stringer on the hull only by routing out 1.5mm from each side(or 3mm from 1) but that would be another step in my tight timeframe and more importantly, I can't fire up the router very easily on weeknights
The hull stringer mould be 50mm high and the top would be horizontal(when looking at the rocker profile) so that it fades away once the rocker reaches 50mm in height. This would allow dynamic nose flex with stiffness in the critical working area at the back. My compromise is a full stringer with a glass sandwich from the track to the font of the Tuttle box.

Sorry for the photo, the work scanner is average...

Haggar
QLD, 1650 posts
31 Jan 2014 2:29PM
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Nice Kimba ! Nice to see a stringer in it, how many production boards have that these days ?

decrepit
WA, 11059 posts
31 Jan 2014 6:22PM
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Sorry but I hate stringers!
Although Kimba's partial one above shouldn't produce point load, (unless it's incapable of taking the load on it and snaps)
It could help stop vacuum bag distortion, that's been my problem with the 5 speed/slalom boards I've built.
Doesn't matter with wave boards, the distortion is only a small percentage of wave board rocker.

Any way Kimba have fun building it, when do you estimate finishing it?
Be good to see it when we're there.

Haggar
QLD, 1650 posts
31 Jan 2014 10:29PM
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Thats ok Decrepit, ive only made one board and being a lazy shaper I found it really easy to shape the board with vee by using the stringer as a guide and reference point.

Kimba
SA, 453 posts
31 Jan 2014 11:14PM
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Select to expand quote
Haggar said..

Nice Kimba ! Nice to see a stringer in it, how many production boards have that these days ?


Hi Haggar, as far as I know soft-moulded production boards don't use hull to deck stringers, some use strips of extra sandwich foam and Fanatic used to use the T stringer. I think they would hinder the eps compression which I think is used to consolidate the resin and degass the inner half of the sandwich shell. They are also more work...

As far as I can remember, the soft comes form the top half of the mould being more flexible than the bottom more rigid part of the mould so that it can suck down onto the pre-shaped core and sandwich. I think the technique was developed by Ken Winner back in the day along with the Tuttle box etc...a bit off topic I know.
Select to expand quote
decrepit said..

Sorry but I hate stringers!
Although Kimba's partial one above shouldn't produce point load, (unless it's incapable of taking the load on it and snaps)
It could help stop vacuum bag distortion, that's been my problem with the 5 speed/slalom boards I've built.
Doesn't matter with wave boards, the distortion is only a small percentage of wave board rocker.

Any way Kimba have fun building it, when do you estimate finishing it?
Be good to see it when we're there.


As Yoda says, "...hate leads to suffering". Why do you hate them Mike, is it from the Polyester/PU boards of the past?

I hate -ve rocker more than the extra step to put in a 3mm stringer At this stage the nose still flexes nicely, much more than it would when the shell is on and so the tensile stresses wont be an issue. Compression loads I hope will be low as I will be out on the rail with the front foot when mowing down chop. My back foot will sit over the rear of the stringer but the increased deck curve and reinforcement creates a very stiff section in this area anyway so fingers crossed.

The Dcell stringer will be perfectly aligned with my laser cut rocker stick so hopefully everything comes out as intended.

Mike, did you get lateral distortion(increased or decrease vee) as well as lengthways?

I hope to finish it in the next 2 weeks so that I am ready for the secret lake down south.

decrepit
WA, 11059 posts
1 Feb 2014 12:09AM
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I guess it does go back to the old days. Some guy snapped a mal at Margarets, he stripped the glass off about 15cm back each side of the break and re-glassed, but the new glass didn't overlap the old glass. I pointed this out to him saying it might be a problem, but he reckoned the glass overlapped the stringer so it would be OK. The next day he took it out, 1st wave he caught, snapped it in half again half way down the wave going over a small chop.
Where did it snap, where the new glass butted up against the old, 15cm away from the original break in the stringer.

I really don't like cutting things in half and glueing them back together again, even if it doesn't weaken them it has to add weight. (That's why I still have single piece masts)

I rely on the stiffness of the carbon/d-cell sandwich, I don't think a stringer adds anything once the board is finished.

No, no change in "v" (well not that I noticed). I think my main problem with change in rocker is the way I put the d-cell on. It's usually in 4 pieces, nose and tail cones and a front and back half. I preshape them and tape together on top of the wet out under layer. Trouble is I usually get a gap between the 4 sections and pull these together with masking tape, I suspect this is the main cause of distortion, when I do the top layer. I do the bottom layer first, I think distortion in this phase is caused by vacuum shrinking the core, then it expanding again when the vacuum is released.
So the bottom process normally gives -ve rocker, the top process gives +ve. I've been lucky so far they come close to cancelling each other out.
May be if I was more careful about putting the top layer under tension and did that first, distortion would be lessened.

Good luck with your time frame, be looking forward to seeing it.

Bonominator
VIC, 5477 posts
3 Feb 2014 12:09PM
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This stuff should be R Rated. Keeping an eye on ya progress.

Kimba
SA, 453 posts
4 Feb 2014 6:42PM
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Well our recent heatwave has stretched the timeline a little, 40 degrees in the shed over the weekend and the high risk of blackouts meant bagging the bottom was too risky. Last night we had gale force winds and blackouts in adjacent suburbs so I thought I would do what Forest Gumps mate did on the shrimpin boat and try my luck with taunting the weather gods otherwise the board will never get finished. With the howling wind it was pretty hard to find bag leaks and my first run with the new vacuum system highlighted a few issues.
1 - I need a much bigger vacuum reservoir for the bigger bags which always seem to have a few leaks. I like FormulaNova's idea in the vacuum system thread of the pipes down the shed wall...
2 - I won’t try sealing the vacuum tube in a mastic "zip" in the bag opening again! Get it sealed and it opens 15 minutes later.
3 – I need to cut the bloody corner off of my rocker stick so I can feed the bag on more easily.
4 – I need to tape the FULL length of the rocker stick to the Dcell.

The power was on when I woke up and the digital alarm clock wasn't blinking so I was relieved. I went out to the shed to find only -4kPa on the gauge but the bag had good clamping force, looks like the base went on well. The stupid mastic wad worked itself free from around the suction tube so I think I will go back to the old through bag fitting. I will also try out some clip lock seal on the ends of the bag as I use really heavy 200um LDPE for durability. The mastic/tacky tape used was purchased in 2007 and may have lost some of its sealing and leak filling properties as the folded tape in the corner folds of the bag were creating slight leaks at the end of the tape and not staying sealed.

I also tried placing the rail and outline templates on the deck to equalise the forces on the foam, looks like it worked pretty well combined with the low clamping force of -25kPa with 5kPa hysteresis kicking it up to 30. I still have the stringer 9mm proud on the deck so the templates butted up nicely to the side rather than overlapping and pushing on the stringer. If the templates were to overlap they might fight against the clamping pressure of the rocker stick holding the hull d/cell onto the underside of the stringer.

I also made some changes to the tail by adding some winglets behind the front foot, widening the tail under the back foot and then adding some bigger wingers behind the back foot for a pinnier tail.













Trousers
SA, 562 posts
4 Feb 2014 7:20PM
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Making stuff late at night as the wind howls? I picture you manically laughing and shaking your fist at the heavens.

But yeah, looking good mate - can't wait to see it on the water. Actually...where do you plan to use this board, 72l seems to be small for what you usually sail at our local?

And yes, Yoda has much to teach us all.

BenKirk
NSW, 599 posts
4 Feb 2014 9:23PM
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I have no idea what you are talking about in your long paragraph, but the pictures are good. It's great to be able to watch someone build a board! Thanks.

keef
NSW, 1994 posts
4 Feb 2014 11:50PM
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Select to expand quote
Kimba said..





I like the parallel profile between the two wingers , nice clean release and it will smoke to windward, and with the piney tale you will be able to use smaller fins for the shallow water






decrepit
WA, 11059 posts
4 Feb 2014 9:05PM
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Kimba, I use a length of flyscreen channel with it's rubber clamping strip to seal the board opening, the other sides I use windscreen mastic tape.
I know what you mean about leaks though it's almost impossible to find them under vacuum, what's needed is a good stethoscope. It's much easier to put some coloured water in and slosh it around

keef
NSW, 1994 posts
5 Feb 2014 10:46AM
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I always had leaks until i used the proper vinyl and takky tape, just need to make the bag initially bigger and keep cutting off each time , takky tape isn't cheap but its better than trying to find a leak

Kimba
SA, 453 posts
5 Feb 2014 2:12PM
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Select to expand quote
Trousers said..
Making stuff late at night as the wind howls? I picture you manically laughing and shaking your fist at the heavens.
But yeah, looking good mate - can't wait to see it on the water. Actually...where do you plan to use this board, 72l seems to be small for what you usually sail at our local?
And yes, Yoda has much to teach us all.

You're a funny guy Trousers, the board is for our "other" local lake that you really should be paying a visit too.

Select to expand quote
keef said..


Kimba said..






I like the parallel profile between the two wingers , nice clean release and it will smoke to windward, and with the piney tale you will be able to use smaller fins for the shallow water


Hi Keef, the profile actually has the same curve, it is just kicked in 5mm at the front and brought out 5mm at the rear. I am hoping the 1cm width increase will offset the tail sharpening...yes, smaller fins are a bonus too.


Select to expand quote
decrepit said..
Kimba, I use a length of flyscreen channel with it's rubber clamping strip to seal the board opening, the other sides I use windscreen mastic tape.
I know what you mean about leaks though it's almost impossible to find them under vacuum, what's needed is a good stethoscope. It's much easier to put some coloured water in and slosh it around



Hey Decrepit, the flyscreen channel is a good idea, I am going to get the quick lock version sometime as the track has a undercut so the rod or seal locks positively into position. In the meantime I will try a scaled up version of the flyscreen channel with aluminium channel extrusion with pvc hose clamping the bag inside.


Select to expand quote
keef said..
I always had leaks until i used the proper vinyl and takky tape, just need to make the bag initially bigger and keep cutting off each time , takky tape isn't cheap but its better than trying to find a leak



I am using the proper mastic/takky tape with the long bag method, i just think the tape is a bit old and has hardened slightly. I saw a new roll in the shop yesterday for $20!

I didnt get any photos of the board in the bag but had a 1/2 hour last night to start cutting the outline and marking the rail curves.



















Aus06
SA, 234 posts
5 Feb 2014 9:22PM
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Bloody awesome Tim. You is one talented fella.

I might have a buyer for the W44 if the Creeper is to become your preferred ride.

It's great to watch this take shape...

Kimba
SA, 453 posts
5 Feb 2014 10:11PM
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Select to expand quote
Aus06 said..

Bloody awesome Tim. You is one talented fella.

I might have a buyer for the W44 if the Creeper is to become your preferred ride.

It's great to watch this take shape...



Thanks Mate, I'm glad you find it interesting.

You might cry (or laugh) if you saw W44 at the moment...bare metal rebuild!

Kimba
SA, 453 posts
6 Feb 2014 2:37PM
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I only had a 1/2 hour agin last night but finished hotwiring the plan, and marked out the rails for shaping. I ended up squaring off the nose to match the tail and I have always liked them anyway...






decrepit
WA, 11059 posts
6 Feb 2014 5:48PM
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For a low pressure job, you sure sucked a lot of resin out onto the surface. I only get that much with a saturated layer of 6oz carbon + 4oz glass in the impact zone. Where I have a single layer of 4oz, there's not much suck through at all. Are you wetting the cloth out on the board, or on the table?

Kimba
SA, 453 posts
7 Feb 2014 2:30PM
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Select to expand quote
decrepit said..
For a low pressure job, you sure sucked a lot of resin out onto the surface. I only get that much with a saturated layer of 6oz carbon + 4oz glass in the impact zone. Where I have a single layer of 4oz, there's not much suck through at all. Are you wetting the cloth out on the board, or on the table?




Yeah, it does look like a lot but I pre-filled the Dcell & perforations with 411 and wet the glass on the eps for a bit of penetration. The resin was drawn through the perforations after about 1/2 hr and the 411 is left in the holes. I cut the glass to match the Dcell and then placed it on the EPS dry to also make positioning easier as I did not want to cross the outline that would be later cut by hotwire. This batch of Dcell aslo has a very small cell size with low resin take-up. I will wet-out the deck zipper and outer laminations on a table though as edge positioning is not critical.

Layup was full 130g, 130g patch nose and tail and then 200g 2" tape on the stringer from the tail to mast track, all glass.

I re-marked the rail curves last night(based on the Falcon 89) as I thought the widepoint and deck roll were a bit low and also marked out a light(5mm) concave on the deck to reduce lift moreso than to lower the mastbase.

The tail was obviously inspired by the Isonic and X-fire, I thought that the reduced tail volume on the speed board would not allow a deep rail cutout below the rear strap though.

Yetti
SA, 253 posts
7 Feb 2014 3:18PM
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I hope your going to try this out first weekend in March while i'm at the secret lake :-), i've got 4 days of hopefully perfect weather down there ^^.

Great to see this take shape cant wait to see the end result, thanks for letting us follow the process.

jn1
SA, 2107 posts
7 Feb 2014 6:53PM
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Looks awesome Tim. Keep up the good work

fangman
WA, 1072 posts
9 Feb 2014 5:57PM
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If this is proper board building porn, where is the money shot? I am hanging out to see the finished board as it been fantastic to watch the process and see the board take shape. Thank you for taking the time to post all the photos and text, I hope the board lives up to expectation!

Kimba
SA, 453 posts
10 Feb 2014 12:49AM
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Select to expand quote
Yetti said..

I hope your going to try this out first weekend in March while i'm at the secret lake :-), i've got 4 days of hopefully perfect weather down there ^^.

Great to see this take shape cant wait to see the end result, thanks for letting us follow the process.



Select to expand quote
jn1 said..

Looks awesome Tim. Keep up the good work




Select to expand quote
fangman said..

If this is proper board building porn, where is the money shot? I am hanging out to see the finished board as it been fantastic to watch the process and see the board take shape. Thank you for taking the time to post all the photos and text, I hope the board lives up to expectation!



Cheers Guys, I will keep the pics coming. I have lost a little momentum with the heat and had to evacuate on Saturday with the catastrophic fire day. Luckily all the fires were kept under control, the closest being in Belair National Park. Relli bash today meant I got out to the cave for an hour tonight to shape the rails and give it a rough sand.
















Kimba
SA, 453 posts
11 Feb 2014 3:12PM
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So I went to shape the lower rails and found I had made a error on the tuck calculation - I allowed for the 3mm shell on the outline but not on the precut 6mm Dcell on the Hull. I ripped off 3mm from the widepoint with the router, squared them up and re-blended the rails. The Dcell hull was trimmed with my tuck template using a snapoff knife.

Next was the deck concave which was originally going to be 3mm, I changed it to 6mm. The mast track area steps down an even 2mm from the hot-wired deck. Next up is smoothing the rough sand and fitting the deck sandwich.

More hot weather on the way, hopefully the weekend is cooler for some more vac-bagging.















keef
NSW, 1994 posts
11 Feb 2014 4:42PM
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Select to expand quote
Kimba said..

So I went to shape the lower rails and found I had made a error on the tuck calculation - I allowed for the 3mm shell on the outline but not on the precut 6mm Dcell on the Hull. I ripped off 3mm from the widepoint with the router, squared them up and re-blended the rails. The Dcell hull was trimmed with my tuck template using a snapoff knife.

Next was the deck concave which was originally going to be 3mm, I changed it to 6mm. The mast track area steps down an even 2mm from the hot-wired deck. Next up is smoothing the rough sand and fitting the deck sandwich.

More hot weather on the way, hopefully the weekend is cooler for some more vac-bagging.





looking good kimba I like your work bench





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"Speed Board Build - HD Creeper 48" started by Kimba