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Light weight wave sails for 2020

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Created by bigdaz A week ago, 2 Nov 2019
bigdaz
NSW, 226 posts
2 Nov 2019 9:41PM
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I've been really interested watching the technology and progress of wave sails over the last few years, particularly in the development of lighter weight sails. There is a lot that goes into how a sail feels on the water and physical weight is only one of those components, so I'm not saying it's the be all and end all, but still really interesting.

So I've gone through a number of brands websites and compiled a spread sheet to show how they compare in physical weight. Not all brands list weights, so it's hard to get a full picture. Let me know if u know any brands I haven't looked at that list this data and I'll add them in. I'm just looking at sails between 4.0 and 5.8 and only listing the lighter sails in their range - not all ranges from brands - too much work. Also if a sail comes in different constructions I've listed the lightest one.

Someone has already mention Avanti, so I'll add that soon.

Here is a screen shot, sorry if it's a bit blurry, hopefully u can zoom in and read it for now while I think of a better way to share it (my tech skills are pretty basic) if u have any ideas let me know, it's currently just a google sheets doc.

Currently I have the S1 Pro as the lightest, but still waiting for that data to be released, but I would be very surprised if it's not the lightest sail for 2020.


It's fair to say that Severne have really lead this charge, consistently producing the lightest sails available and now Duotone are also pushing hard with the Super Hero M series. But they are not the only ones and it's fair to say the most brands have been working on and producing light weight sails also.

Other things to consider.... Price Tag, Durability, Lifespan, and most important, how the feel on the water and how they suit your style of riding.

Anyway, jump in, share your thoughts, give me more data to add to the spreadsheet etc....

Gestalt
QLD, 12204 posts
2 Nov 2019 11:02PM
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you could probably just use the 2019 s1 pro weights till the 2020 gets released.
severne also have the redback which is marginally lighter than the s1 pro.

I think weight does make a difference to the fun factor but agree a heavier sail can still feel light on the water.

once we include mast/boom and uni weights the rigs can be up to a kilo difference or more. duotone have the lightest masts and unis I am aware of. Then Severne, so good to add that as well. Ezzy is the heavy one.

400mm
duotone aero 1.25kg
severne red 1.3kg
duotone platinum 1.35kg
Neil Pryde TPX 1.35kg
Hot sails Ultra 1.5kg
Goya 85% 1.5kg
KA 100% 1.5kg
simmer sx10 1.6kg
GA 100 1.6kg
Unifiber endure evo 1.65kg
Ezzy hookipa 1.71kg

Gestalt
QLD, 12204 posts
2 Nov 2019 11:48PM
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140-190 booms

Severne enigma 1.88kg
Duotone platinum aero 1.95kg
Chinook 1.95kg
Goya super skinny 2.12kg
Hot sails kauli 2.15kg
Unifiber carbon 2.24kg
Simmer blackline 2.25kg
GA wave carbon 2.33kg
Neil Pryde xwave 2.6kg

Gestalt
QLD, 12204 posts
3 Nov 2019 12:10AM
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extensions

Duotone 34cm uni xt 420g
Simmer 32cm carbon 470g
Goya 30cm cabon 540g
Severne 36cm cyclops carbon 580g
Neil pryde 34cm carbon 650g

uni

duotone ibase + tendon 370g

I have both chinook and severne i'll weigh tomorrow.

bigdaz
NSW, 226 posts
3 Nov 2019 6:39AM
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Good call on considering rig components weight, that can make a big difference.

bigdaz
NSW, 226 posts
3 Nov 2019 6:40AM
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I finally worked out how to share the link, hopefully this works

I have also highlighted the size 5.0 as a good size to compare - as not all, but most sails seem to do a 5.0.
docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1U2J8xXgmC1h0-FIXj_uN1mXzuwGeLGsbbM7dkAwvxKk

Avanti added.

bigdaz
NSW, 226 posts
3 Nov 2019 7:12AM
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Here's the link for better viewing.
docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1U2J8xXgmC1h0-FIXj_uN1mXzuwGeLGsbbM7dkAwvxKk

bigdaz
NSW, 226 posts
3 Nov 2019 7:33AM
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2019 S1 Pro weights listed now, while we wait for the 2020 data to be released.

docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1U2J8xXgmC1h0-FIXj_uN1mXzuwGeLGsbbM7dkAwvxKk/edit?usp=sharing

Faff
VIC, 701 posts
3 Nov 2019 10:42AM
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Select to expand quote
Gestalt said..
extensions

Duotone 34cm uni xt 420g
Simmer 32cm carbon 470g
Goya 30cm cabon 540g
Severne 36cm cyclops carbon 580g
Neil pryde 34cm carbon 650g

uni

duotone ibase + tendon 370g

I have both chinook and severne i'll weigh tomorrow.

Does the weight at the bottom of the rig matter that much?

Nerdburger
NSW, 168 posts
3 Nov 2019 10:54AM
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I had 5.7 & 5.3 19 blade pro's, and now have 5.7 & 5.0 Ezzy elites current yr, the weights between both (gorilla & Ezzy mast for each sail), in hands when sailing are very very close. All same hardware, booms, extensions, etc.
The blade pro (5 batten) feel a little crisper, prob would be a little lighter and a lighter feeling even more with 100% severe masts, but not gorillas.
The Ezzy,s (4 Batten) pvc window, heaps of range, power, well built.
My Severne's pro's were light, but suffered durability and didn't make a season, got 10 mths, a fantastic sail, but over $1200 each, the Ezzy's just for me have the strength v lightness down.
When your nearest windsurf shop is 3/4 days to send if in stock, plus wavesailing powerful beach breaks, not being without a sail for me is worth the 200/300 grams deference between the two. Just my 2 cents.
Thanks Daz, for the info on sail weights, interesting.

stehsegler
WA, 3000 posts
3 Nov 2019 8:55AM
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If weight is your only consideration then Severne will win that category hands down.

Mark _australia
WA, 19601 posts
3 Nov 2019 10:25AM
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Has the glued-only S1 Pro been released?
Will be interesting to see the longevity of it (and other super light sails) compared to traditional.

Madge
NSW, 187 posts
3 Nov 2019 1:40PM
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It'll be interesting to see how the S1 will last with durability.

We used to make glued only sails for yachts, problem was that the glue used was heavier than the double sided tape and the stitching, and then it went brittle and cracked after a year, couldn't use them in the tropics as the glue went soft in the heat so the sails seams would open up and were a bugger to repair.

Seamed sails with the best materials in the right areas of the sails body in my opinion are still pretty good.

The membrane sails though do feel nice but durability is the big issue, Ok if your a pro or can afford new sails every season.

bhc
VIC, 120 posts
3 Nov 2019 2:11PM
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Interesting clip about membrane sails.. Not sure how unbiased it is though.



The fact that a few brands, especially the ones competing in PWA, are investing in it shows that the technology has some performance advantages.... Or they claim so to create a new segment in the market. IMHO, the significantly higher prices and the questionable durability make them unappealing.

bigdaz
NSW, 226 posts
3 Nov 2019 2:30PM
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Select to expand quote
Faff said..

Gestalt said..
extensions

Duotone 34cm uni xt 420g
Simmer 32cm carbon 470g
Goya 30cm cabon 540g
Severne 36cm cyclops carbon 580g
Neil pryde 34cm carbon 650g

uni

duotone ibase + tendon 370g

I have both chinook and severne i'll weigh tomorrow.


Does the weight at the bottom of the rig matter that much?


I'll add in the weights of Booms and Masts as I think they make a big difference, but I won't bother with extensions and bases for now.

Gestalt
QLD, 12204 posts
3 Nov 2019 8:47PM
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Select to expand quote
Faff said..

Gestalt said..
extensions

Duotone 34cm uni xt 420g
Simmer 32cm carbon 470g
Goya 30cm cabon 540g
Severne 36cm cyclops carbon 580g
Neil pryde 34cm carbon 650g

uni

duotone ibase + tendon 370g

I have both chinook and severne i'll weigh tomorrow.


Does the weight at the bottom of the rig matter that much?


I reckon it all adds up.

Gestalt
QLD, 12204 posts
3 Nov 2019 8:48PM
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Select to expand quote
bhc said..
Interesting clip about membrane sails.. Not sure how unbiased it is though.



The fact that a few brands, especially the ones competing in PWA, are investing in it shows that the technology has some performance advantages.... Or they claim so to create a new segment in the market. IMHO, the significantly higher prices and the questionable durability make them unappealing.


great video. thanks for sharing it.

Faff
VIC, 701 posts
3 Nov 2019 10:39PM
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Select to expand quote
Gestalt said..
bhc said..
Interesting clip about membrane sails.. Not sure how unbiased it is though.



The fact that a few brands, especially the ones competing in PWA, are investing in it shows that the technology has some performance advantages.... Or they claim so to create a new segment in the market. IMHO, the significantly higher prices and the questionable durability make them unappealing.


great video. thanks for sharing it.

Yet I've been told that yacht membrane sails "last forever".

Madge
NSW, 187 posts
4 Nov 2019 5:53AM
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Select to expand quote
Faff said..

Gestalt said..

bhc said..
Interesting clip about membrane sails.. Not sure how unbiased it is though.



The fact that a few brands, especially the ones competing in PWA, are investing in it shows that the technology has some performance advantages.... Or they claim so to create a new segment in the market. IMHO, the significantly higher prices and the questionable durability make them unappealing.



great video. thanks for sharing it.


Yet I've been told that yacht membrane sails "last forever".


I've seen soo many old yacht membranes dumped and all de-laminated. Don't get me wrong, brilliant sails but they are race sails usually and not designed to last. Theres something on the market called Stratis, by Doyle sails which is good but nothing lasts forever.

Madge
NSW, 187 posts
4 Nov 2019 5:55AM
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That north sail has no where near the amount of fibres in its construction compared to the Severne sails.

It'll be light weight and probably be great to use but can't see it lasting more than a season for most people.
Theres hardly any fibres coming out of stress area.

Gestalt
QLD, 12204 posts
4 Nov 2019 8:36AM
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i guess the severne redback and duotone now should also be on list as they are both super light wave sails.

its interesting that duotone say the now is the first sail dedicated to smaller riders and rippers because that's nowhere near true.

Faff
VIC, 701 posts
4 Nov 2019 12:49PM
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Select to expand quote
Madge said..
That north sail has no where near the amount of fibres in its construction compared to the Severne sails.

It'll be light weight and probably be great to use but can't see it lasting more than a season for most people.
Theres hardly any fibres coming out of stress area.

Interesting... but doesn't the membrane type also make a difference? The Severne Blade Pro I had was ridiculously thin compared with Avantis.
There's also this at the other end of the spectrum:

gunsails.com/en/seal-membrane

Real heavy, though.

Madge
NSW, 187 posts
4 Nov 2019 7:59PM
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Depending on the manufacturer, the membrane thickness will also differ.

They try to use thicker materials nearer to the foot as that's also where the shape in the panel is and therefore the thicker film will support the shape more.

Some companies use more thread count in higher stress areas but a thinner film. The new one from duotone looks like there's not many mapped threads, the mapped threads are ones that are computer laid in between the films.

The Severne have lots of mapped thread. Think the Gun sails membrane uses quite a thick film.

Relapse
VIC, 312 posts
4 Nov 2019 9:41PM
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Severne Pro longevity depends a lot on the sailor, care and conditions you sail I reckon. I've seen blokes destroy a pro in less than a season but my S1 Pros are 3 summers old and starting their 4th and I sail heaps. Treat them well, roll em up straight off the water and stand them in the shade to drip dry, not rigging them and letting them bake waiting for the wind to come in helps too. Still amazes me that people lie their rigged sails to bake dry in the sun after a session, sometimes for hours. More care required than a normal sail if you want them to last but so worth the effort.

Faff
VIC, 701 posts
5 Nov 2019 12:35AM
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Select to expand quote
bigdaz said..
Faff said..

Gestalt said..
extensions

Duotone 34cm uni xt 420g
Simmer 32cm carbon 470g
Goya 30cm cabon 540g
Severne 36cm cyclops carbon 580g
Neil pryde 34cm carbon 650g

uni

duotone ibase + tendon 370g

I have both chinook and severne i'll weigh tomorrow.


Does the weight at the bottom of the rig matter that much?


I'll add in the weights of Booms and Masts as I think they make a big difference, but I won't bother with extensions and bases for now.

Another lightweight:

www.phantom-international.com/iris-windsurfing-sails-2020/iris-w-51-mtk9d

forceten
823 posts
5 Nov 2019 12:11AM
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Some interest here ; like weight of extension, mast boom, amuses me, do I really want or , further do I need the lightest of anything VS one of the strongest.

what I'm trying to say is weight can be part of the process, to me just not the defining one.
FWIW I've seen the Severne as being very light, a 4.8 shown on the chart, as 2.8 kg, the S1 Pro is 2.5kg,
I have a custom 4.8, that is the cats Meow, weight is 2.35kg.

Basher
131 posts
5 Nov 2019 6:25AM
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A few random notes on rig weights:

1) Once you have used lighter rigs you won't want to go back to really heavy ones.
2) The all-up weight of the rig is important, so that's the sail, the mast, the boom, and, yes, the extension - because the total weight is at times a dead load on your board, and that becomes a factor when choosing a wave board size and how high it sits in the water before planing.
3)We care about every rig component because of the incremental effect on all-up rig weight, so a few grams in the extension or boom does make a difference. The mast and sail weights are the key weights in any rig set up because they affect the swing weight of the rig in any move.
4) A light sail must still be well engineered because we do care about breakages and rig longevity. I use a beefier 370 mast but the lightest 4m mast.
5) In terms of handling, the rig still has to work and so the sail and mast must match well, with correct downhaul applied etc.
6) The main benefit then comes from when you carry the board and rig to the water, and when you chuck the rig about in gybes and other rotational moves. The lighter rig lets you sail longer and take less muscle power. You won't notice rig weight so much once planing and simply sailing along in a straight line.
7) If I could only afford a few of the lighter rigs then I'd go for the light version of the bigger wave sizes, say the 5.3 and 4.8. Once it's 4.4m weather then weight seems less of an issue because you're on a smaller rig anyway.
8) A good day on the water is still defined first by you scoring good conditions.

Membrane sails:
The whole point of a membrane sail is to engineer each panel to suit the specific loads in that part of the sail, but bespoke panels also allow greater strength at minimum weight in the sections of the sail you might fall on.
Having engineered the sail with bespoke panels it might be lighter or else it may be the same weight as other sails but a lot stronger.

Longevity is then another issue.
My own Severne S1 Pros and Blade pros have lasted several seasons but it's the smaller sizes that take the most beatings because at my beach we need strong wind before we get bigger waves.
If you sail in a sunny climate then U/V damage will eventually kill any sail. We don't seem to have that problem here run the UK because it rains a lot in out wave season.
On sandy beaches, it's best not to leave your gear lying down whilst it gets sandblasted just because you are taking a break. And it's good to rinse your gear because it's sand or grit left on the sail that destroys that sail as you drive it around in your van.

bigdaz
NSW, 226 posts
5 Nov 2019 12:02PM
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Lots of great thoughts, comments and more products to list on the spreadsheet. I'll add them in as soon as I get a chance. Keep em coming!!!

Some updates to spreadsheet:

- Phantom Iris added.
- Avanti Fenix and Viper added.
- Hot Sails Ks Spider added.

Duotone "Now" This only comes in a 4.0 and 4.4 in the sizes we are comparing and as it's really a kids/small person sail I will leave it off for now.

Severne Redback is also listed as a kids/small person sail - still waiting on data, but not sure it should be listed in this comparison due to its limited use.

Also gathering data on booms and masts - not on spreadsheet yet, but also need to keep in mind that some of the lightest mast have limited wave usage and are not suitable for all wave environments.

I have also colour coded the sails into 4 lightweight categories:
Extremely Light, Very Light, Light, Moderately Light.

Anyway here is the link link again with all the updates so far:

docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1U2J8xXgmC1h0-FIXj_uN1mXzuwGeLGsbbM7dkAwvxKk/edit?usp=sharing

bigdaz
NSW, 226 posts
5 Nov 2019 3:51PM
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Masts and Booms now added - Click the link for clearer viewing :)

docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1U2J8xXgmC1h0-FIXj_uN1mXzuwGeLGsbbM7dkAwvxKk/edit?usp=sharin




forceten
823 posts
5 Nov 2019 10:50PM
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Nice work on the charts.
i think still, that weight esp smaller sails and rigs is overrated . On a 7m and sails that require a 460 mast, it's more pronounced. The weight savings in grams, of point something doesn't excite me.

i find this interesting , a DaKIne Primo footstrap weight dry is 170 grams, wet 232gr.difference of 62.
3 straps 186grams/ 6.561 oz. considering their are straps, like some harnesses that absorbed near none

not to mention a cheeseburger

philn
269 posts
6 Nov 2019 1:19AM
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Useful chart, thanks for putting together.

I have a 2014 KS3 5.5 so I weighed it with a hand held luggage scale. Possibly not the most accurate scale, but it's what I have. In the sail bag it weighs 3.3 kg, so assuming the sail bag weighs 50 grams (it's so light it didn't register on the scale by itself), the hotsails website weights are accurate.



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"Light weight wave sails for 2020" started by bigdaz