Forums > Windsurfing Wave sailing

Looking to boost light conditions for my Quad

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Created by Manuel7 > 9 months ago, 2 Oct 2015
Manuel7
58 posts
2 Oct 2015 9:48AM
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I've been riding my Starboard Quad (82L/58.5cm) since May and while the grip is decent when conditions are side-on with milder chop, it lacks a little support when it's more on, choppy and gusty. I'm still running the stock Drake fins 11cm forward and 13cm back. I tried different positions but I need more lift. On the wave face, it's fine, can't complain, it's to improve speed, to cross the reef, have greater productivity, head faster upwind and leverage my 5.0-5.3 sails. I could use more volume but it becomes unconfortable in chop or in the air, so I thought above trying different fins.

K4's with Flexies or Stubbies out back in 14cm and 10cm (or 8cm) Ezzy in the front with 1 degree of toe. Cost around USD$125.
Or Black Project's MiniEpic and Thrusters in 14.5cm and 9cm, cerca USD$150.

I'll see about trying some fins locally.
Does this make sense according to what I want to achieve? MFC's or MUF's are quite pricey.
Will it truly improve performance or should I try to manage with what I have?

Al Planet
TAS, 1246 posts
2 Oct 2015 5:00PM
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I am going to try my *quad 78 (2015) with a Twin set up for those onshore days. I think this will loosen it up in messy onshore conditions and maybe even speed it up a bit. I normally ride a kode twin in those conditions so it will be interesting to compare. I will try some 16s and see how that is. there probably wont be much improvement in the upwind ability though...I think its already pretty good though I don't have much current to deal with.

DrGreen
WA, 2 posts
2 Oct 2015 7:10PM
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Was struggling with exactly the same issue on my 2014 82L SB Quad. After trying some different combinations front and back, I'm now using K4 Flex 15cm rears with 10 cm K4 Ezzy 2 degrees asymmetrical fronts. This increased the efficiency and upwind potential of the board in marginal winds by lifting the tail a bit more when planing. I noticed that this setup is quite sensitive to fin position, so worth experimenting with this again with your new setup. For reference, I run them half a cm further back than the indicated optimal positions. Good luck!

Mark _australia
WA, 16620 posts
2 Oct 2015 8:56PM
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Many people prefer them as a twin when it is onshore

Thus I'd try it as a stock twin, then borrow some slightly larger rears and try that as a twin, before I spent money on a whole new quad set.

curac
WA, 1015 posts
2 Oct 2015 11:20PM
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just buy a couple of old singles fins around 20cm and another 2 around 18cm and i guarantee you won't skip out again.

but on a more serious note, may I suggest trying to sail the board different, maybe more up right.

you say your not getting enough lift, but what do you mean by that?
The drake fins that come with the board are pretty different to what most other brands are flogging. 13 rear seems small but 11 front large and the base width and thickness of the fins is a lot more for the front fins than most other brands so they really should be providing the same amount of lift or maybe even more.

if you want to increase speed you need smaller thinner fins = less drag

The K4 fins are good but the won't increase speed especially with tow in and if you get asymmetricals it will be even slower. tow ins will make the board turn better, but they will be more off the back foot.

I recommend try to sail the board differently, as not all boards are made to be sailed the same. there is a give and take in all the boards and i actually think the stock fins are pretty good, maybe try to sail more upright with pressure hanging down in your harness, as apposed to just pushing off your board.

Manuel7
58 posts
3 Oct 2015 3:17AM
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Al Planet said..
I am going to try my *quad 78 (2015) with a Twin set up for those onshore days. I think this will loosen it up in messy onshore conditions and maybe even speed it up a bit. I normally ride a kode twin in those conditions so it will be interesting to compare. I will try some 16s and see how that is. there probably wont be much improvement in the upwind ability though...I think its already pretty good though I don't have much current to deal with.



The twin is an option for increased speed and looseness, but I'm not a Twin type of guy, I prefer the carving of a Quad than the slidey feel of a Twin, maybe I'm wrong?


Select to expand quote
DrGreen said..
Was struggling with exactly the same issue on my 2014 82L SB Quad. After trying some different combinations front and back, I'm now using K4 Flex 15cm rears with 10 cm K4 Ezzy 2 degrees asymmetrical fronts. This increased the efficiency and upwind potential of the board in marginal winds by lifting the tail a bit more when planing. I noticed that this setup is quite sensitive to fin position, so worth experimenting with this again with your new setup. For reference, I run them half a cm further back than the indicated optimal positions. Good luck!



It matches what Black Project recommends WaveMulti 15 and 10 Thrusters for onshore. Mine is 2013 so it's the same I believe.
What size sails do you use with it? How is it on the wave then? What's your weight and settings on the board.



Select to expand quote
Mark _australia said..
Many people prefer them as a twin when it is onshore

Thus I'd try it as a stock twin, then borrow some slightly larger rears and try that as a twin, before I spent money on a whole new quad set.



I'll try to source some fins locally.


Select to expand quote
curac said..
you say your not getting enough lift, but what do you mean by that?
The drake fins that come with the board are pretty different to what most other brands are flogging. 13 rear seems small but 11 front large and the base width and thickness of the fins is a lot more for the front fins than most other brands so they really should be providing the same amount of lift or maybe even more.

if you want to increase speed you need smaller thinner fins = less drag

The K4 fins are good but the won't increase speed especially with tow in and if you get asymmetricals it will be even slower. tow ins will make the board turn better, but they will be more off the back foot.

I recommend try to sail the board differently, as not all boards are made to be sailed the same. there is a give and take in all the boards and i actually think the stock fins are pretty good, maybe try to sail more upright with pressure hanging down in your harness, as apposed to just pushing off your board.



By lack of lift I mean that when the sail isn't fully powered and I'm hitting chop, I have to work to keep the plane because the fins have little power (my front leg bends, the board starts heading upwind). On 4.2 because the sail is lighter and has less pressure on the board, it has enough fin power to keep the plane without working too much.

Top speed isn't bad when I'm powered, it's when it's light and choppy and I'm using a "bigger" sail that I have the problem.

When I first got the board, I noticed it was low on the water. I moved the track all the way back. This rose the nose and made the board turn instantly. After some more sessions I noticed that my speed at the jibe exit and bottom turn was low, no matter how fast I was going in. Moving the front straps all the way back helped clear some rail up front and keep more momentum out of jibes or bottom turns. I could now sail the fastest I had ever sailed full speed clew-first down a wave.

Moving the straps also rose the nose a little so I moved the mast track back a touch more forward, I'm now 1-2cm near the center. I tried moving in back in the middle and couldn't turn as tightly as I wanted anymore. Overall, stance, speed, control is excellent no matter what the conditions now. It feels like I'm "one" with the wave, really fantastic. It's just the fins that lack drive when sailing 5.0+ on the way out, the more on the conditions the more it's obvious, the more side, the more it disappears. I am used to sailing small single fins and love it (19cm on 77L and 22cm on 105L) so I consider myself "light-footed."

On a wave, here it's not very powerful and nearly always side-on. So I'm not dropping in with tons of speed, I need all of the board speed I can get down the wave. Then, in clew-first I need the board to keep a good plane and that I can change direction easily to hit different sections.

I hope this clarifies a few points and that most of you are still here and not asleep on their keyboards!
Thank you for the help.

Jeroensurf
371 posts
3 Oct 2015 4:10AM
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What you describe could also be a result of running a too low boom or not enough DH and OH...Personally I think the Starboard fins aren,t the most efficient ones but rather big in surface so that shouldnt be the problem.Over here in Holland-Europe we have really slow side-on chaos we call waves and lots of happy people with Ezzy 8cm 2 degree and Flex 15cm on 82/84 Starboard Quads, Quatro,s and Goya,s (that is one of my baby,s) but you can only change the nuance, not the whole character (or compensate a wrong rig set-up.

xoff
QLD, 99 posts
3 Oct 2015 6:44AM
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This from k4 site
ROCKET (L)
HIGH DRIVE
Almost like having slalom fins in your waveboard! Lift, drive and speed for onshore conditions. Great for ealy planing and jumping. Also surprised us with their DTL performance but you'll need to use your rails for powerful turns as they don't have the same grip'n'whip in big cut backs and snaps as the flexier fins. Flex: LOW Sizes: 14.5, 15.5, 16.5, 17.5, 18.5 US SLOT heads. 16.5, 17.5 and 18.5 now available in
I've never tried em but mfc got some too. Anyone tried them?

DrGreen
WA, 2 posts
4 Oct 2015 2:26AM
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Select to expand quote
What size sails do you use with it? How is it on the wave then? What's your weight and settings on the board.



The 2013 and 2014 82 SB Quad shapes are the same to my knowledge as well. I use the K4 set mostly with 5.3 and 4.8 S1 sails. The same as your observation, with smaller sails (and more wind), or powered up on the 4.8 I had no issues with the stock fins. I'm 85kg/185cm and have my foot straps at maximum spread. Mast position is near central, perhaps a cm more towards the nose.

Regarding the feeling on the wave, I found that with using my K4 setup (and compared to the stock fins) I lost some of the trademark SB Quad 'Engage rail -> Accelerate' response in the bottom turn. In other words, I found that the board lost a bit of drive in the bottom turn.

Because of the different effects of the two sets of fins, I use the stock fins in good waves with enough wind and the bigger set for jumping conditions or light wind. Also the stock 13cm Drake rear fins paired with the 10 cm K4 Ezzy 2 degrees asymmetrical fronts feel quite nice to me.

Interesting enough (and against my initial thought), I found that using the toed-in asymmetrical front fins together with the stock rear fins did not add drag to my setup. Don't ask me why though.

Hope this helps.

Manuel7
58 posts
4 Oct 2015 11:34AM
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Select to expand quote
DrGreen said...


What size sails do you use with it? How is it on the wave then? What's your weight and settings on the board.



The 2013 and 2014 82 SB Quad shapes are the same to my knowledge as well. I use the K4 set mostly with 5.3 and 4.8 S1 sails. The same as your observation, with smaller sails (and more wind), or powered up on the 4.8 I had no issues with the stock fins. I'm 85kg/185cm and have my foot straps at maximum spread. Mast position is near central, perhaps a cm more towards the nose.

Regarding the feeling on the wave, I found that with using my K4 setup (and compared to the stock fins) I lost some of the trademark SB Quad 'Engage rail -> Accelerate' response in the bottom turn. In other words, I found that the board lost a bit of drive in the bottom turn.

Because of the different effects of the two sets of fins, I use the stock fins in good waves with enough wind and the bigger set for jumping conditions or light wind. Also the stock 13cm Drake rear fins paired with the 10 cm K4 Ezzy 2 degrees asymmetrical fronts feel quite nice to me.

Interesting enough (and against my initial thought), I found that using the toed-in asymmetrical front fins together with the stock rear fins did not add drag to my setup. Don't ask me why though.

Hope this helps.


I was expecting exactly this type of response. Makes complete sense to me. Thank you.

used2surf
WA, 40 posts
4 Oct 2015 11:59AM
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I put MU's on my 86 starboard Quad when I first got it to improve upwind ability, been very happy with the result .

Finn0
QLD, 46 posts
5 Oct 2015 1:01PM
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Played around with a few different fin combos for my 89 SB QUAD and found the best all round set up for cross to cross on for me is a set of twinzer 16's out of
SB KODE in the back and stick with the stock 110 in the front.
Not the prettiest set up to look at but the benefits in cross to cross on are amazing super fast, planes much earlier and doesn't bog down in turns on the wave.
Still feels like a quad with even more drive not skatey like a twin
In cross off i like a size bigger than stock, 150 k4's or SB 150's are the go.
Love how tunable these boards are can make them work in any condition just by changing rear fin to suit conditions.

Manuel7
58 posts
6 Oct 2015 12:46AM
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Your weight? When I tried their 2010 Quad it came with 16 and 12, and I actually thought it was fine.
As a counter example, the JP Single Thruster in 82L had too much fin with 20 + 10/9cm.

Finn0
QLD, 46 posts
6 Oct 2015 12:38PM
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I'm around 80kg, posted a vid on 2015 Aust wavesailing Flat Rock post, the starboard tack stuff is with twinzer 16.5 and 110 up front, port tack small cross off stuff is from last summer with 150 SB in back 110 in front.

Manuel7
58 posts
8 Oct 2015 8:18AM
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I had read that multi-fins were very sensitive to adjustments, well I can only confirm this. So far 1cm increments have made big changes through mast foot position, footstraps and fins position on my Quad.

After researching my onshore issues, I hadn't (re)-tuned fins position since tuning mast track and straps positions.

They were set in the middle so I moved them apart 2 or 3 cms, I believe they are 1cm away each from being fully apart which corresponds to two fingers apart when trying to place fingers between the front and rear fins (saw this somewhere too).

Wow did it make a difference! Tracking was improved (ex: easier to put straps on in chop), the jibes feel more secure (less bounce), the board is less darty but can still be turned sharply if needed.

Then on a wave it felt like it had a secure grip with a strong connection on the wave, safer bottom turn and strong positive top turn with a greater spin out resistance. Basically fins closer together ressembled more a Twin.

Sailing along it lost some odd partial spin out I was getting and has more friendly tracking. It is as if the turbulence created by the fins being too close had disappeared.

Honestly I was shocked to notice so much difference. It still doesn't scream upwind but this was improved a little.

R1DER
WA, 928 posts
9 Oct 2015 8:13PM
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Just buy a set of rear 15 cm fins ( or borrow),leave your 11 cm front fins in the board , move them to the back of the box. That combo will give you fin area for early planning, to rocket upwind and to work with 5.3m even a 5.7m keeping the fins grouped close together will promote tighter turns. Forget k4 fins the ones I tried were rubbish. Toe in front fins in quads will cause it to not get on the plane early and fight against the rear fin in a turn , the front fin will end up stalling in the turn. Front fin toe in work well on thrusters but not on quads. Try makani fins or black project or choco. I personally like choco but they are way more expensive.

Mark _australia
WA, 16620 posts
10 Oct 2015 10:11PM
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^^ agreed K4 are too flexy compared to G10

exhaust all setup options before caving in to the "ooh maybe i will change fins but can't afford to, so I will try these mega cheap yellow things"
I tried the latter, and nup....... not happy.


Manuel7
58 posts
11 Oct 2015 12:20PM
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Wow I have to say I'm a little surprised about the negative feedback on K4's, I had previously read similar findings.
Looks like Black Project make some nice fins. I have a friend of mine here who moved his front fins all the way forward and left his back fins in the middle on his 2013 DaCurve 80L. Makes sense to me.

Manuel7
58 posts
24 Apr 2016 11:54PM
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Well yesterday we had a pretty consistent 16-21 knot wind in side to side-on conditions, overhead to mast-high. I'm 67-68kgs.

Basically with the stock 11+13 I wasn't able to plane. Earlier I was out on my old 77L freewave board fitted with a custom 19cm (cut down and slimmed out old freestyle/wave 22cm fin) and I was planing quite often, I'd say 80% of the time with solid speeds. This let me escape sections without having to climb them, let me head back upwind fast to catch at least twice to three times as many waves. But the wave riding feel is underwhelming and quite stiff compared to the Quad :( Being 82L and 2.5cm wider than my freewave, it floats better and climbs white water pretty much by itself, stays composed in the waves.

When on the freewave when I lose sail pressure I still keep up my speed so when the wind picks back up I accelerate, while on the quad it feels like it pushes lots of water and lacks lift. With the 77L I pumped twice and got a plane, with the Quad I need to pump numerous times to maybe possibly plane, this is heading fully downwind with light feet and 32" lines using a Banzai 5.0 looking for a downhill etc.

I was able to get a hold of 16.5cm and 15.5cm + 8cm MUF fins as well as 16cm + 8cm MFC ProFlex Fins.
I wasn't convinced by either the 15.5+8 or 16+8 combos, it felt like it didn't fit the nature of the board, the board did ride higher up on the water but lacked bite from the front part of the board on a wave.

Then I tried the stock 11s + 15.5 MUF's. This felt like the MUF's didn't match the stock feel, not enough flex and spin out too suddenly.

Finally I tried the MFC 16s + 11s and this gave me tons of grip, good lift (felt like the board was lighter) but is too stiff on a wave (slow rail-to-rail), also the board doesn't feel lively on the water (tracks dead straight) and made it hard to adjust trim to slalom around sections but the MFC's matched the stock fins very well in terms of carve and spray.

So... I was thinking about trimming down my MFC 16 (reduce length and width) to use with the stock 11's until I get something that gives me good lift but isn't too stiff.
The reason why this is important is that we get lots of 15-20 knots days and side-on conditions, I feel like my sail is pulling tons but doesn't translate into board speed. Or am I being in denial and do I need a proper side-on board such as a Kode Wave, Triwave, Pocket Wave, Single Thruster or possibly use a Tabou DaCurve or JP Quadster as a Tri fin setup?

I've had my Quad for a year now. I really enjoy it on a wave no doubt but the more onshore the lighter the more I struggle.

pilchard
SA, 578 posts
25 Apr 2016 11:51AM
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Im a fan of K4 fins. Big choice of options ie flex, stubby, ezzy etc..
If you go by the recommendations you will go well.
You will find a setup to suit your weight, board and style and they are up front about the lack of early plane ability.
Personally I wouldn't go out and get them to improve my blasting in onshore conditions but I find them really nice on a wave of any size in cross or cross off.
I sail tidal reefs as well and find the recycled ice cream tubbs very durable compared to G10.
Dont get me wrong I'd love a big box full of exotic / expensive G10's in all shapes and sizes but I'm a weekend warrior and daylight savings oportunist with a limited family budget.
Exhaust all options offered like changing your style, setup and going for a bigger fin or twins.

Manuel7
58 posts
25 Apr 2016 10:14PM
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Select to expand quote
pilchard said..
Im a fan of K4 fins. Big choice of options ie flex, stubby, ezzy etc..
If you go by the recommendations you will go well.
You will find a setup to suit your weight, board and style and they are up front about the lack of early plane ability.
Personally I wouldn't go out and get them to improve my blasting in onshore conditions but I find them really nice on a wave of any size in cross or cross off.
I sail tidal reefs as well and find the recycled ice cream tubbs very durable compared to G10.
Dont get me wrong I'd love a big box full of exotic / expensive G10's in all shapes and sizes but I'm a weekend warrior and daylight savings oportunist with a limited family budget.
Exhaust all options offered like changing your style, setup and going for a bigger fin or twins.


What I mean by onshore is still side-on, just that it's sometimes side-on-on, it's mostly when light out but it's always with wave riding in mind.
In a day where waves aren't so good, I try to be as picky and well positioned as possible but it doesn't replace mobility and the ability to get more waves altogether or cheat and come into them planing.

Manuel7
58 posts
3 May 2016 10:43AM
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hmm... tried twin MFC ProFlex 16cm and it felt pretty quick (4.5 powered to underpowered), faster than my freewave which is a good thing. Jumps were much higher. I liked how radical it felt on a wave, yet spinout threshold was quite acceptable. Upwind performance was so-so. The fins released smoothly not abrupt so there's some carving sensation without being so slidey. The board was a bit more bouncy, fins were all the way forward.

Will try with fins 1.5cm off the front. I might have to move mast track forward, a touch behind center now.

First impression was that it slid onto the plane, it's a progressive acceleration add opposed to a sudden pop. But it felt less draggy and delayed than with the quad setup. Top speed was also improved, it felt fast.

More tomorrow.

Manuel7
58 posts
6 Nov 2016 1:07AM
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Ok, after lots of messing around with fin setups and sailing light planing conditions, I realized that the Twin setup in side-on lacked drive.
Yes I have less drag but I also have less lateral support. So with side swell hitting the rail it's too technical to keep or reach the plane when the board is being constantly disturbed. Obviously the single fin being best at providing the most lift at low speeds in these conditions.

So for now I'm riding 16+8 with rear fins setup quite forward and front fins spaced out about two fingers from the rear fins. I'm getting good drive from the fins which makes things easier. Basically, there's not much that can be done when the shape is dedicated to wave riding and we look for early planing and light speed planing, it'll just push water no matter the fins.

If I had the choice I'd rather have 15+10 or 9 a little closer to the stock 13+11 because the 16's feel a touch big when coupled with 8's to power through some top turns.

Manuel7
58 posts
6 Feb 2017 10:41PM
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Ok after much testing, I am now on 16+11. The 16 are quite far forward (had to grind down the base to set farther forward), they are where I used them as twins. The 11's are maybe 1cm off of the front?

Now I have good drive, I can push strong and get support in light winds (for lulls, bad onshore chop/swell, early planing, etc). It's not skatey but I can still break the fins loose, the grip is tremendous on a wave though, feels very safe going down a choppy wave and I can use so much force at the top turn it feels great.

Top speed isn't that bad at all, definitely not slow the plus side is that I have great control. I got a bit more lift, the nose rarely hits the chop and I can expose the windward rail more easily to maintain the plane.

On a gusty 4.5 day, but not overpowered, I didn't find it particularly stiff, it was fine. Because of side-on conditions when not a wave, we are either going upwind or doing a downwind run right before a jump so having strong fins (or a faster board) helps a bit.



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"Looking to boost light conditions for my Quad" started by Manuel7